Stephen Kenny

I can't believe there are still people defending Kenny. In fact I'm disgusted by some of them, especially those who tried to start the 'only one Stephen Kenny chant' at the game last night when we were a few minutes from an embarrassing defeat to Ukraine B. To me this shows that they have no interest in the health of the senior team but instead their own interests. That may be that they are hardcore LOI supporters, they want their view of previous managers to be backed up or whatever it is. They have been shouting down anyone who had some valid criticisms of Kenny's reign for the past two years. Trying to brush over multiple shocking defeats and performances while over celebrating beating minnows and drawing with Belgium B.

These people are doing serious harm to the future of our senior team along with the Kenny backers in the media. While we get knocked out of every tournament after a couple of games and fall further down the rankings, the chances of qualifying for major tournaments gets tougher all the time. And prior to the Kenny nightmare regime, we were very close to qualifying for the Euro's. Instead of this myth of a rebuild, the next manager had good foundations to build on. A squad who competed strongly with Switzerland and Denmark added with some of the most exciting youngsters we've had coming through in a generation. Yes, many of them have to make a full break through but to turn this squad with great potential into an absolute shambles takes some doing.

Things only improved under Kenny when a high quality coach came on board to sort out the formation, playing patterns etc. It's widely accepted now that Anthony Barry was responsible for the best displays under Kenny and it's gone back to normal without him. Those who have watched the u21's will know there are more players with promise coming through. It's only promise as yet but we need to give them the best chance of success by appointing a competent management team at senior level. This obviously means we get rid of Kenny as soon as possible. I think the abuse, excuses and myths peddled by the Kenny fanatics are finally being silenced. Their numbers are reducing thankfully. And with that hopefully we'll see the end of the reign of the worst manager in our history.

Kenny had time now lets finish these two games, and get a new coach, Liam Brady was always right, the local domestic football fans in Ireland they want to have a local guy to testify the improvement of their domestic league, that lets be fair has improved the last 12 years lets be honest, but is not good for international football, the lack of urgency from the bench, the lack of making it difficult for the ukranians is really worrying , Kenny has settle the team with some flow, from the back, Duffy improved on the ball, he gave some consistency lets say from the back, but the team cant score, and you may concede a fluke goal, but you havent taken yours as in Armenia...

Ireland should have tried to overwhelm them no just for the last 15 minutes with Mcclean and Obafeni but with attitude, well lets play players with attitude and some other with good passing and that balance and mixture will improve, we got very predictable up front , and the stats say it all, we could have rescued a draw yesterday, but Ireland under Kenny cant score goals, cant produce enought, because the lack of finishing is worrying at this level, if you create chances and dont take them, it is very important, something is wrong, because the other team may score a goal....we lost a lot of games for one goal, thats very bad something is wrong up front

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If Mick McCarthy was still in charge Darren Randolph would still be our goal keeper. Kenny has made good decisions in players that he has moved out and new ones brought in.

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I find it extraordinarily unlikely that under McCarthy, Randolph, in self-imposed semi-retirement as third choice at West Ham, would be ahead of all of Bazunu (on the verge of an eight-figure move), Kelleher of Liverpool and an in-form, PL-bound Travers. Those are so obviously the three best goalkeepers available to us that it's close to impossible to believe any other manager would do any different to Kenny. So to suggest he deserves special credit for doing the obvious is perhaps a tad over-generous.

Kenny's set-up is very much based on a core of veterans aged around 30 and over: Duffy, Egan, Doherty, Stevens, McClean, Hendrick, Hourihane, Coleman, Christie etc. He was still selecting McGoldrick until his retirement and did his best to rehabilitate the international careers of Arter and Horgan. Some of the players he's brought in aren't, in fact, all that young; Ogbene, McGrath and Cullen are all in their mid-twenties. Collins is a £15m player and, again, any Irish manager would pick him. It's only really in attack where younger players have been given a chance and that has mainly been forced on us whoever was in charge. McGoldrick has retired and Long's now 35.

Despite this, you would be forgiven for believing Kenny's teams were made up of 17/18-year-old kids the way certain Kennyites go on, and all that is required is perseverance and patience. Many of the players we select simply aren't going to get any better than they are now.

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

I can't believe there are still people defending Kenny. In fact I'm disgusted by some of them, especially those who tried to start the 'only one Stephen Kenny chant' at the game last night when we were a few minutes from an embarrassing defeat to Ukraine B. To me this shows that they have no interest in the health of the senior team but instead their own interests. That may be that they are hardcore LOI supporters, they want their view of previous managers to be backed up or whatever it is. They have been shouting down anyone who had some valid criticisms of Kenny's reign for the past two years. Trying to brush over multiple shocking defeats and performances while over celebrating beating minnows and drawing with Belgium B.

These people are doing serious harm to the future of our senior team along with the Kenny backers in the media. While we get knocked out of every tournament after a couple of games and fall further down the rankings, the chances of qualifying for major tournaments gets tougher all the time. And prior to the Kenny nightmare regime, we were very close to qualifying for the Euro's. Instead of this myth of a rebuild, the next manager had good foundations to build on. A squad who competed strongly with Switzerland and Denmark added with some of the most exciting youngsters we've had coming through in a generation. Yes, many of them have to make a full break through but to turn this squad with great potential into an absolute shambles takes some doing.

Things only improved under Kenny when a high quality coach came on board to sort out the formation, playing patterns etc. It's widely accepted now that Anthony Barry was responsible for the best displays under Kenny and it's gone back to normal without him. Those who have watched the u21's will know there are more players with promise coming through. It's only promise as yet but we need to give them the best chance of success by appointing a competent management team at senior level. This obviously means we get rid of Kenny as soon as possible. I think the abuse, excuses and myths peddled by the Kenny fanatics are finally being silenced. Their numbers are reducing thankfully. And with that hopefully we'll see the end of the reign of the worst manager in our history.

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The vitriol is way over the top.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

I completely, fundamentally disagree with this. Experimentation should never end. Just because you know your players doesn't mean that there isn't someone new coming through who can offer something different.

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I didn't say it should end, I said he shouldn't still be doing it after 25 games in charge. Actually, I probably could have explained it better. His comments last week about winning the nations league suggested to me that he had a team, tactics, and a style of play in mind that would win all six games. Since then, we've lost two games, both of which were arguably winnable - away to (what we had assumed was) the weakest team in the group, and home to a team that have barely played in the last six months, who were coming off the back of the heartache of losing a playoff, not to mention the turmoil in their home country. Whatever experimentation was needed to prepare us for these four games should have been completed, because you can't rely on experimentation to change the way a game is going, while it's still in progress. I think we all know what Kenny's Plan A is, but right now it feels like his Plan B is to do Plan A, but better.

The bad performances, and results, in Kenny's first year in charge were excused for a number of reasons - the team was getting used to a new style of play, he was learning on the job about the players he had available to him, and of course COVID. This (the excused peformances/results) continued until the Andorra and Hungary double header a year ago. It was suggested that the Andorra friendly was a "must win" game, and Kenny asked how you would define must win in a press conference*. Well, it meant that if he didn't win that friendly, he'd probably lose his job. We won, despite going behind, and performances improved, and the talk changed from if he needed to win a game to keep his job to extending his contract

Twelve months after that game against Andorra, we're asking the same question - is the next game a must win?

* from https://www.the42.ie/stephen-kenny-37-5446652-May2021/

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Kenny bristled when the question was asked prior to the World Cup qualifier against Luxembourg, and given how that went, it was asked again today ahead of next week’s friendly game against Andorra.
“How would you define must win?”, came the manager’s response.
“Do you feel you have to get a win to get off the mark?”, was the clarification.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

I find it extraordinarily unlikely that under McCarthy, Randolph, in self-imposed semi-retirement as third choice at West Ham, would be ahead of all of Bazunu (on the verge of an eight-figure move), Kelleher of Liverpool and an in-form, PL-bound Travers. Those are so obviously the three best goalkeepers available to us that it's close to impossible to believe any other manager would do any different to Kenny. So to suggest he deserves special credit for doing the obvious is perhaps a tad over-generous.

Kenny's set-up is very much based on a core of veterans aged around 30 and over: Duffy, Egan, Doherty, Stevens, McClean, Hendrick, Hourihane, Coleman, Christie etc. He was still selecting McGoldrick until his retirement and did his best to rehabilitate the international careers of Arter and Horgan. Some of the players he's brought in aren't, in fact, all that young; Ogbene, McGrath and Cullen are all in their mid-twenties. Collins is a £15m player and, again, any Irish manager would pick him. It's only really in attack where younger players have been given a chance and that has mainly been forced on us whoever was in charge. McGoldrick has retired and Long's now 35.

Despite this, you would be forgiven for believing Kenny's teams were made up of 17/18-year-old kids the way certain Kennyites go on, and all that is required is perseverance and patience. Many of the players we select simply aren't going to get any better than they are now.

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Side-note to this: as we all know, Martin O’Neill gave his international debut to Michael Obafemi; but he also gave first squad call-ups to Caoimhin Kelleher, Jimmy Dunne, Ryan Manning
Meanwhile, Mick gave debuts to Josh Cullen, Troy Parrott, Aaron Connolly and Lee O’Connor and first Squad Call-up to Travers

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Say we fluke a win over a likely understrength Scotland - what does that actually change?

Kenny's been in charge for 26 months and 25 matches: the verdict's in; he's just not up to it. We've all seen more than enough, now, to know that, however decent a bloke he might be, Kenny's just not adequately equipped for this job.

We were desperately poor in Yerevan, turning in a disjointed, tepid, uninspired performance in which it became abundantly clear quite early on that, in terms of both selection and tactics, it wasn't working. And Kenny just didn't react. When the changes did come, we were already a goal down and they proved to be far too late, panicky, ill thought through and, ultimately, ineffectual - the game ending with the unedifying spectacle of a succession of hopeful balls launched into the box in the hopes that maybe centre-forward Duffy could get his head to something.

Incredibly, Kenny saw all this and made only one unenforced change for last night's game, proceeding to make exactly the same mistakes all over again! All of this leading, funnily enough, to exactly the same result.

If you can't even identify the problems, let alone work out a way to fix them, and seem utterly incapable of learning from what seem obvious previous mistakes, well I'm afraid it's time to admit that it's a hopeless cause, draw a line under the whole thing and move in another direction.

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Spot-on. No theories, no personal attacks - just a clear statement of the situation. Anyone still believing Stephen Kenny is the future of Irish football is in denial.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

The vitriol is way over the top.

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It sometimes takes a lot for people to admit they were wrong. I would have been delighted if Kenny proved me wrong but unfortunately he hasn't. I'm glad you're able to accept your misjudgment, others are finding it harder to accept. Many with influential media positions unfortunately.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-41738609.html

I worry when I read these kind of things that Kenny is oblivious to the failings, I know he has to defend himself somehow, but this doesn't really do him favours when the general public are well aware there's nothing progressive about the team and there's been no progress over the last 2 years, what's progressive is the results, they are getting progressively worse.

Fair assessment by Neil O’Riordan here imho.

“Anyone with an ounce of sense accepted there would be some pain associated with a transitional period where results might be iffy as both the personnel and style of play were changed. It was the implied trade-off for better long-term prospects.”

That’s certainly how I felt, and I felt the knives were out far too early from some quarters.

There was that awful start, then a period when performances and results were better and we actually started crafting clever goals and regardless of what the cranks say, there was evidence of progress and evidence that a more contemporary way of playing the game was becoming embedded into the team.

Then there’s the critical stage, the point where once the growing pains have passed and snags have been fixed that you expect – at the very least – no reversion to the worst performances and more realistically further progress. Unfortunately, what happened in the last two games was clear reversion to the worst performances and no in-game management ability to deal with it.

I think it’s going to be over soon for Kenny now. I’m still not sure it’s going to get better in his absence though. Kenny isn’t the full problem here.

I can’t speak for others but I’m not convinced by the LOI fan argument. I’m a LOI fan, and also an English football fan, a Scottish football fan, a pan-European fan and a fan of the international game. I want Kenny - and more importantly his vision - to succeed because I think it has to succeed. “Sinn fein” is the only way forward. The success of the international team has to reflect a successful domestic model. Player development, coach development, pathways for players, facilities, competitive leagues, a competent governing body. I honestly don’t see any other way and I think most people see this. I think that's why he has support, because he's an Irish football insider who believes in our game, not simply because he managed in the LOI. But what he achieved for a LOI side in Europe, and as ontheotherhand said in the Ukraine thread, how he achieved it, made him a good candidate for the job, albeit a very speculative one.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I can’t speak for others but I’m not convinced by the LOI fan argument.

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What is the 'LOI fan argument'?

I'm a LOI fan who has long been saying Kenny should be gone.


What I think has happened though is that there has been a bit of misrepresenting of arguments going on, to the effect that if somebody say Kenny should go, it has been misrepresented to mean that they want a return to the Trap style of play or whatever.

That's not the case for me at least. I'm all for changing a style of play, even changing a culture of football, and I understand that doing so migh bring with it a period of short-term pain. I can see the long-term gains. The issue is that I don't see any reson to think that Kenny is the best person we can get for that job.

Football (at senior level at least, there's a bit more flexibility at underage where the ultimate goal is still producing players for the senior team) is all about maximising the resources at your disposal. Previous managers have failed to do this from the opposite perspective - Trap, for example, had us playing ultra dour shyte even against minnows. I don't think Kenny is even coming close to maximising his resources at the moment, if he ever has.

Linked to that is a bit of flexibility, or at least pragmatism. I think Kenny is too wedded to a style. If a smooth passing game gives the best chance of getting a result in a particular game, then I'm all for it. But if hoofing the ball down the pitch represents the best chance of getting a result in a particular game, then I'm all for that too.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

What is the 'LOI fan argument'?

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This...

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

I can't believe there are still people defending Kenny. In fact I'm disgusted by some of them, especially those who tried to start the 'only one Stephen Kenny chant' at the game last night when we were a few minutes from an embarrassing defeat to Ukraine B. To me this shows that they have no interest in the health of the senior team but instead their own interests. That may be that they are hardcore LOI supporters, they want their view of previous managers to be backed up or whatever it is. They have been shouting down anyone who had some valid criticisms of Kenny's reign for the past two years.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

The vitriol is way over the top.

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Vitriol??

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Originally Posted by brine3

Vitriol??

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I agree Brine3. It is ridiculous to call it vitriol tbh. Boomshakalaka hit the nail on the head with what he said.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

What is the 'LOI fan argument'?

Linked to that is a bit of flexibility, or at least pragmatism. I think Kenny is too wedded to a style. If a smooth passing game gives the best chance of getting a result in a particular game, then I'm all for it. But if hoofing the ball down the pitch represents the best chance of getting a result in a particular game, then I'm all for that too.

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100% But is that because its all he knows, or he truly believes this is the best way to play football regardless of what you have at your disposal? It's like me saying I love driving my car around chicanes and getting the best acceleration out of the corners, only to be driving a Tractor around the place.

I think this is what I have been saying in a long-winded way for a while now. Get the job done, and great ya get us playing some nice football too.

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Originally Posted by brine3

Vitriol??

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I personally didnt think there was much vitriol in what he said. I think he has toned it town, I also think there is an element of superiority complex on this forum, yes he's a bit brash and yes he's a newbie and also yes he might be gone with Kenny but his points have substance behind them.

Is he even that wedded to a style though? In the early days he wanted to play 4-3-3 and everything had to be built from the back, even if that meant making mistakes and players being uncomfortable. We saw that gradually adapt to allowing more opportunities to go long where it made sense to go long. Then Barry came in and Kenny adopted his Chelsea 3-4-3 or 5-2-3 or whatever you'd like to call it and he's stuck with that since. We definitely don't try to pass it out from the back every time, like we did in those early days.

My biggest issue and criticism is not that he's wedded to a style, it's that his in game management doesn't allow for adaptation, that once he settles on a formation he won't change it from game to game (to a degree, given the limited time an international squad has together to work on shape that makes some sense), or even in game. He hasn't found a way to get the ball into the net often enough, and whether that's because we don't do enough work on set plays or we're picking the wrong forwards, or we're not brave enough in the opposition half, that's something he hasn't managed to resolve. He probably should have thrown Obafemi in from the start in the two games, he was the form player coming in and with goals being the primary issue it was again something he can be criticised for. I don't think he's had a lot of luck (other than maybe in terms of the lack of criticism of results) but he has to start making that luck and he has to do it immediately now. I think the players are still onside, but the way the confidence drained and frustration set in the other day it may be wavering.

I've said before, I admire what he's tried to implement, but I'm not sure he's going to survive to see the fruits of it. There's a massive hole in squad between the older 30 somethings and the under 23s, he's unearth a few in the middle group, like Ogbene, Hamilton, McGrath etc. but they're not really at the level to make a massive difference and they're just as inexperienced as the younger players, even if they do manage to raise their game. I've no doubt the next senior management will see enormous benefits from the caps gained by the likes of Idah, Bazunu, Collins, Omobamidele, etc. but it's looking ever more likely Kenny will have overseen the biggest transformation in our footballing history, but his legacy on paper will be one of the worst results records we've ever seen.

I'm a romantic at heart, and I'd still love to see him turn it around and lead the team to the Euro's, but faith and time are rapidly running out.

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Originally Posted by passinginterest

Is he even that wedded to a style though? In the early days he wanted to play 4-3-3 and everything had to be built from the back, even if that meant making mistakes and players being uncomfortable. We saw that gradually adapt to allowing more opportunities to go long where it made sense to go long. Then Barry came in and Kenny adopted his Chelsea 3-4-3 or 5-2-3 or whatever you'd like to call it and he's stuck with that since. We definitely don't try to pass it out from the back every time, like we did in those early days.

My biggest issue and criticism is not that he's wedded to a style, it's that his in game management doesn't allow for adaptation, that once he settles on a formation he won't change it from game to game (to a degree, given the limited time an international squad has together to work on shape that makes some sense), or even in game. He hasn't found a way to get the ball into the net often enough, and whether that's because we don't do enough work on set plays or we're picking the wrong forwards, or we're not brave enough in the opposition half, that's something he hasn't managed to resolve. He probably should have thrown Obafemi in from the start in the two games, he was the form player coming in and with goals being the primary issue it was again something he can be criticised for. I don't think he's had a lot of luck (other than maybe in terms of the lack of criticism of results) but he has to start making that luck and he has to do it immediately now. I think the players are still onside, but the way the confidence drained and frustration set in the other day it may be wavering.

I've said before, I admire what he's tried to implement, but I'm not sure he's going to survive to see the fruits of it. There's a massive hole in squad between the older 30 somethings and the under 23s, he's unearth a few in the middle group, like Ogbene, Hamilton, McGrath etc. but they're not really at the level to make a massive difference and they're just as inexperienced as the younger players, even if they do manage to raise their game. I've no doubt the next senior management will see enormous benefits from the caps gained by the likes of Idah, Bazunu, Collins, Omobamidele, etc. but it's looking ever more likely Kenny will have overseen the biggest transformation in our footballing history, but his legacy on paper will be one of the worst results records we've ever seen.

I'm a romantic at heart, and I'd still love to see him turn it around and lead the team to the Euro's, but faith and time are rapidly running out.

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This is pretty good.

Part of the problem is that there seems to be LOI diehards/Kennyites who view Kenny as a reflection of the LOI and want him to hold on to the Irish job at any cost. They will try convince you that he is the only man for Ireland, that we are playing good football and shout down anyone who disagrees. They try convince you that competitive losses to the likes of Luxembourg, Ukraine B side and Armenia are to be expected while at the same time they celebrate drawing 2-2 with the Belgian reserve team in a friendly as if that were an achievement. In reality, Kenny is a decent fella but he is way out of his depth as Irish manager, his record in charge of us is woeful and he should be relieved of his duties asap. No other international manager would be given the amount of chances he has been given.

I think such people aren't anywhere near as common as you seem to think though.

How many are on here, for example?