His mentioning of his religion is total ignorance. Im an atheist and my wife is a prod. We are just as Irish as him.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
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His mentioning of his religion is total ignorance. Im an atheist and my wife is a prod. We are just as Irish as him.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
He was hardly suggesting otherwise. It's pretty obvious the majority religion of his community is one of the reasons for the abuse he gets, and arguably why the FA turns a blind eye to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
No fair enough. I regretted my post within a minute of posting it. But james needs to watch the content of his social media activityQuote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
It's not 'total ignorance', it's just relative to where he's from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
edit - Just saw Charlie's post.
He's escaped with a warning. It seems the issue was the use of the c word which he subsequently obfuscated. There found no issue with the cavemen comment or quoting MP Bobby Sands obviously.
He is bang on. Fair play to him for standing strong. Why should he keep his head down among the abuse he gets constantly? The uneducated ‘no surrender to the IRA’ cavemen brigade should be called out for what they are.
Yeah, I'm not always fully on McClean's side but I'm really rooting for him here.
So, the F.A. have dealt with his initial rant. Will they have anything to say about his comments relating to their investigation? That would be far more interesting but I suspect they won't want to go near it.
Someone needs to tell him this! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
You would think that the Brits had a monopoly on fallen soldiers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
No other country in the world does this. 3 long weeks every autumn when the UK goes all poppy, and insist that everyone complies. Foreign players should not be obliged to wear them, if they choose not to. It's not their culture, I'm sure many don't like it. Although McClean would be better off keeping his mouth shut about it every year. It's common knowledge by now why he refuses, he doesn't have to explain himself every year.
We should all be wearing poppies out of respect for the fallen also, after our antics when we mercilessly murdered British soliders during our War of Independence. Lest we forget.
What? Should we? Or is that sarcasm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
I don't feel any inclination to do so anyway. And if James doesn't, that should be up to him. The storm over wearing one or not is ridiculous.
All that said, there's still nothing smart or principled about wading into an online argument calling people cavemen and c**ts. It can only ever end badly for him, and he must know this.
I couldn't be more sarcastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
"the majority religion of his community is one of the reasons for the abuse he gets."Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
So let me get this straight. James McClean has played for a few English clubs at this stage of his career. They thought nothing about his religion when they signed him in each case. Neither did it matter one iota to the fans at any of those clubs where James goes to pray on a Sunday. But it obviously does matter to those fans that James disrespects their military veterans by not observing the poppy ceremony. I love James's commitment to Ireland, and wish more were like him, but in all honesty James should have walked away from English football (to the continent I would suggest) when this became an issue a couple of years ago. His behavior is disrespectful to the people who pay his wages, and that is never a good situation to be in.
Foreign players should respect the wishes of the fans that pay their wages. Really if they had the courage of their convictions (assuming this is so distasteful to them) they should never be playing in Britain in the first place. There are plenty of other places to go to play your football.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Yeah the Muslims shouldn't wear their clothes burqua etc in England. There are plenty of other countries where they could do that and fit in.
Just like mcclean they shouldn't go to england
My own theory on it is that the growth in everything surrounding Remembrance Day is related to the incremental decline of the British polity and identity. It has become, to some degree, a kind of national British day.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
That's a non sequitur. Just because people apparently didn't have a problem with McClean's religion before doesn't mean it doesn't inform their behaviour towards him now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Such as? We are talking about Irish footballers here. Where else do they go if they want to make it? They can't go abroad as they can't/won't fit in, so have to go back to England asap.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
This annual charade has nothing to do with religion. It's all about politics. Sport and politics should never mix, because eventually someone rebels when they're told what to do and how to behave.
They can't go abroad as they can't / won't fit in? Why not? Where and why will they not fit in, wherever that may be?Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
They could do exactly what the Swedes, Danes, Norwegians do when heading to Holland, Belgium, German football etc.
So why is it that the Irish lads cannot fit in in any other country other than England?
And you're right, this has nothing to do with religion, and wrong when you say it is all about politics? It's not that complicated. It's all about the reverence the English fan feels for his forefathers who fought to save their country in two world wars. It was born and bred into them as kids and they hate to see anyone acting in a disrespectful manner towards that 'reverence'. There were other occupations of countries along the way, which obviously James saw first hand in his childhood. Again I say, James should have walked away from English football (to a different country) when this became an issue a couple of years ago.
I think the reasons why they don't fit in to a foreign culture are obvious. The other nationalities you mention are far more open to other cultures, their international careers are largely unaffected, and in some cases enhanced. Here, you basically have to play in England or for Celtic, otherwise you're out of sight and out of mind, as far as the national team is concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
The poppy is a political symbol. This is British culture, and if they believe that wearing that for 3 long weeks is commemorating something they had nothing to do with, honouring people they don't know and never met, that's their right. They should also respect that if you don't believe in someone else's political cause, you should not be forced to honour it.
Wearing the poppy used to be one day a year. Then it was a weekend, a whole week, and now it's an annual propaganda marathon for the British Army. The wearing of the poppy is a political symbol. McClean, as with other foreign players, should not be forced to honour the British Army, regardless who pays them.
No one is being forced to do anything in this situation. The English fans involved are taking it upon themselves to honour their fallen army members who died, as I say, defending the country during two world wars. They are doing this out of a sense of duty and respect to those who served their country. The fact that James, and the other foreign players you mention (which I haven't yet seen), do not join in in this display of respect, makes them outcasts. James isn't being forced to do anything. He is choosing not to join the ceremony, and the perception English fans have of him is never going to change because of this. Why go through the hassel of putting yourself at loggerheads with a whole country when you can play your football somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
It's none of our business I suppose, but why have these displays of remembrance grown to such an extent that they now resemble a festival? It continues to grow the further we move away from those events. It's very much a recent thing in football too.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Just a thought ~ As well as refusing to wear one James could also elect to wear the white poppy or this new(?) shamrock poppy.
Nemanja Matić of Man United chose not to wear one.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
It's a question only he can answer. I wouldn't be surprised if he starts to fake an injury at this time of year from now on though.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Totally. Every year it's as if there's a "I'll remember the fallen more than you!" competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
When I first moved to the UK I wouldn't wear a poppy. Irish people just don't wear poppies was my thinking. But I'm married to to an English girl, her family is all English and many friends and colleagues were British. It was the Blair years and Anglo-Irish relations were good and life felt good before the financial crash. So for a few years I wore one, just as many Irish TV celebs and footballers did. But the political climate changed and you couldn't help but notice at the same time that football was going daft at poppy time of year, with Chelsea and Rangers making almost comically huge fuss over the size of their displays, and the biggest critics of non-wearers are from scumbag squaddie unionist types, the hard core Eurosceptic right and all that type so I just said stuff it, this doesn't feel right anymore so I stopped again about ten years ago.
Also, the white poppy isn't just a way of respecting the dead without supporting the Legion. It's also an explicit support for pacifism (and a specific pacifist movement / organisation?) as far as I know. I don't know about the shamrock poppy.
McClean was referred (as the 'footballer from Derry' not by name) on this week's BBC Radio show Moral Maze. The Panel was discussing basically whether as a nation/ society we should increase remembrance (so that the lost generation will be honored after they've all died), or alternatively scale it down (because given their deaths, we'll reach a point where there's no-one left alive that knew them, and anyway militarism is innappropriate).
It's not really about WW1 of course. There's a spike this year for the Centenary but the fetish season has been getting bigger since the Middle-Eastern wars 15 or 20 years ago. Brexit has accelerated this. England has become a giant, more ill-informed version of NI- and it's notable that even in the latter we didn't have a month of hysteria when I was at school in the 70s.
I wear a poppy every year, usually for a day or two. As a teenager I'd occasionally delay or forget, only to be reminded by my mother. Of course nowadays it's impossible to forget as everyone on TV etc. feels obliged to wear a giant one.
This is likely to continue awhile yet, although at some point you'd hope the poppied pizzas and onesies will fade away. Until that happens I doubt many public figures will be as brave as McClean or Matic.
Oh I get why the Brits do it. They think that their soldiers lives were more important, than those from other countries in wars and conflicts. Like I said, no other country is as fanatical about wearing a poppy than they are. It's the forcing of other nationalities to comply with their cause that I have an issue with.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
On Sky last week, a female journalist from South Africa had to face an inquisition from 3 English male counterparts about why she wouldn't wear it on their tv show. Basically it's not her culture and wearing it won't make them come home.
The next campaign that everyone has to toe the line about, is the shoelaces, even players from a socially conservative background, and with strong socially conservative beliefs.
But when a coach wears a ribbon about prisoners in his homeland, then the FA remind him that the football field is not the place to promote political causes. And they're right, it's not. But that applies to all causes, not just the ones they don't approve of.
Don't think the white poppy would work but fair play to you, you make some decent points - Fly. Didn't know that about Matic. Cheers.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
A couple of issues with what you say. Ok so you feel the British think the lives of their soldiers were more important than.........who exactly? Would you be talking perhaps about the lives of your mother and father and my mother and father who were allowed to have children (you and I) due to the bravery of those soldiers (British, French, Dutch, Norwegian etc etc and of course Irish soldiers) who defended our countries during the World Wars? I don't think the British public feel anyone's life is more important than another's, but they are just thankful to be living in a free society instead of the alternative. So before you criticize that ceremony (which was observed with impeccable silence at Cardiff City this morning to include Shane Duffy and Greg Cunningham) I would remember that humankind was saved and you and I have benefitted to the point that we live in a time when the toughest thing we do all day is exercise our fingers on a screen, while those lads back 75 years ago were up to their eyes in flying mortar shells, starvation and fear of torture).
On the subject of the football field not being the place to promote political causes. I would agree with you on that. However when the whole country has done this for three-quarters of a century and you or me (foreigners) are trying to tell them (in their own country) that they cannot observe the ceremony any longer - well that's a bit of a non starter I would say.
And regarding remembrance ceremonies across the world (they are done in America and Australia and France, and I'm sure many other countries) I am all for them in general. Why? Because we live in a time when many out there are trying to rewrite our history and tell us that things we know to be true never happened at all (case in point - not so long ago I was told on a message board that there was no such thing as Irish slavery).
The idea of wearing the poppy for 3 whole weeks was not an idea a short time ago. Now it's universal in the UK. If people think wearing it is important, that's their business. But they've no right to tell those who don't or don't want to, such as McClean, to toe the line or face the consequences. He has his reasons for not wearing it, they should be respected.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Irish soldiers fought in those wars, we don't wear poppies to remember those who didn't make it back. Does that mean their lives were any less important than the Brits? No it doesn't.
Most of the world today lives in a free democratic country. Sometimes it was achieved through peaceful means, sometimes it wasn't. How is e.g. an African footballer in the EPL supposed to relate to the sacrifice of a British soldier? Forced to wear a poppy on his shirt? I don't think so.
This is objectively false:Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
“The number of countries designated by Freedom in the World as Free in 2013 stood at 88, representing 45 percent of the world’s 195 polities and 40 percent of the global population. The number of Free countries decreased by two from the previous year’s report.”
https://freedomhouse.org/report/overview-fact-sheet
That said, my view on the poppy is that it should be the choice of the individual on whether to wear it or not.
I think there was a way for McClean to decline to wear the poppy in a more diplomatic way but he’s not how he’s wired.
The Poppy isn't just about WW1 and WW2, it's explicitly stated to be for all British soldiers, in all wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
That includes the ones who set up concentration camps in South Africa, butchered the Indians, and opened fire on peaceful protesters in Derry in 1972.
how in the name of history do you think British soldiers defended Ireland in World War 1? Do you somehow imagine World War 1 had something to do with them central European types wanting to conquer ireland( or for that matter England)? If World War 1 had gone the other way and the brits and friends were defeated it would have been a far better outcome for Ireland and likely allowed us to regain our independence across the 32 counties given the weakened state the brits would have been in.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Might also be good to remember that the British state s inhumane treaty terms was the catalyst for World War 2 an example of jingoism at its best .that Irish slavery you mention was perpetrated over all those centuries and up to very recenltly solely by the brits so contributing to their funds to honour there war criminals is not on my agenda. world war 1 was a war between imperialistic states and their allies the outcome made no difference to humankind apart from the millions who died for nothing other than the imperialistic pride of their lesders.
The idea that the British forces at any time have had a positive influence in Ireland is laughable and the British plans to invade Ireland during world War Two should clearly show that at no time have British forces ever respected Irish sovereignty.
What I've gathered from this thread is that some people here would wear the poppy, some people wouldn't. Some people think that other people should wear the poppy and some people don't.
That's fine.
There is neither a law or moralistic reason that anyone in the UK, (British, Irish, English, Welsh, Scottish or other) suggests anyone should wear the poppy.
The only question I see, is, what is an acceptable response if you disagree with someone not wearing a poppy?
Abuse? No, not acceptable.
In my opinion ,what the poppy represents, is freedom. Freedom of choice.
If there's anyone who thinks the abuse James McClean gets for his freedom of choice not to wear a poppy, is deserved, truly don't understand what people were fighting for.
http://simondarcyonline.com/mcclean/
https://www.britishlegion.org.uk/rem...licts/#ireland
https://i.imgur.com/j3ue01L.jpg
Caught a glimpse of the Celtic game today and noticed there wasn't a poppy on their shirts.
I'm curious to the reaction of the Celtic's hardcore anti-imperialist fans if one of the Celtic players wanted to wear a poppy on their shirt today?
Why is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by IsMiseSean
"Anti-imperialist"? I wonder who is pro-imperialist?Quote:
Originally Posted by IsMiseSean
Celtic have had the poppy on their jerseys before as a mark of respect for their former players who died in world war one
I'd say every fat bald ex squadie they roll out this time of year to say how they have brought freedom to the world in the British forces are pro imperialistQuote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
It seems there is a lot of Celtic fans defending McClean's stance and I wonder would they be as understanding if it was the other way round?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
I noticed John Bruton wearing some sort of shamrock poppy on RTE today and seen a few people on twitter criticising him for doing so.
Yeah I remember them having one on their shirt before. I also remember a massive banner dismissing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Since my first post - I noticed Brendan Rodgers was wearing one at today's game.
Tets is going to reign us all in very quickly for turning this into a history debate rather than a football one - but I'm as guilty as anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
I should have made the distinction clearer between the World Wars - WWI as you correctly point out was between imperialsitc states and it began after the Archduke Franz Ferdinand incident. However, intelligent as your opening salvos are, you just cannot be serious when you say: "the idea that the British forces at any time have had a positive influence in Ireland is laughable."
Laughable is the correct word for that statement. Leaving the Troubles aside, we never would have been there to experience those awful times in the late 60's and early 70's had it not been for the British. They joined the Americans to fight and defeat the Germans when the rest of Europe, with a few exceptions, was lying down. You have never heard your parents say that we would have all been in concentration camps had the Nazis won the war? You mention that the British had plans to invade Ireland? I have never heard that, but I am willing to research it. Could it perhaps have been because we were refuelling German U-boats on the west coast of Ireland during WWII? Maybe, maybe not, but what you say is interesting nonetheless.
And lastly, Irish slavery was perpetrated by the British (the Vikings were the ealier slave traders). I don't dispute that for one second. All I was saying is that some people out there (not related to this site) are trying to rewrite history (and their numbers are growing), saying that there was no such thing as Irish slavery. If anybody ever debates the existence of Irish slavery with you Liamo, remind them that the natives of the island of Montserrat (in the Carribean) were but a few hundred. However in the late 1700's and early 1800's the population on the island was estimated to be 100,000. Where did all the people (slaves) come from? Answer 60 per cent from Africa, and 40 per cent from Ireland. The common denominator - the British.
I'll allow it, for now. But try to reach a conclusion