The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

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Either way, the IFA was unable to prevent DCFC from entering the LOI in 1985, since for security reasons etc it was neither safe for DCFC to stage IL games at the Brandywell, nor was it reasonable to expect them to play their "home" IL games away from Derry.

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Just to set you right on the historical basis to Derry City being in the LOI. There were no security reasons why DC could not have gone back to the IL. During the 80s, the then RUC, make it clear that Derry City could play IL football in the Brandywell. It was the powers to be in Windsor Park that used security issues to stop it. It's also not right to say that the IL couldn't have prevented DC joining the LOI. They could and indeed it was your very own Mr. Crosson, who was the then chairman of the Irish League, that allowed DC to join the LOI. This was agreed at an inter-league meeting that took place in Oriel Park, Dundalk in 1984.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

I don't recall that the IFA disputed or wanted to prevent Derry being able to play in the LOI but stated they would have no objections at that time so I don't think Uefa had to rule on it as such.


And here is a wee nugget fromthe IFA Articles of Association by which Derry City are bound...

Article 3

12.
(a) A member may not seek directly or indirectly to transfer its Membership of the Association

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The UEFA exemption is super-equivalent to this.

Which I thought was fairly obvious?!

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

And here is a wee nugget fromthe IFA Articles of Association by which Derry City are bound...

Article 3

12.
(a) A member may not seek directly or indirectly to transfer its Membership of the Association

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Does that not make LOI clubs members of the IFA? :D For example, Bohs were members of the IFA first before "transferring" to the League of Ireland.

I think the point is that if the ownership of DCFC changes then the IFA membership can't move with that transaction- presumably DCFC would have to reapply.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

I think the point is that if the ownership of DCFC changes then the IFA membership can't move with that transaction- presumably DCFC would have to reapply.

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It's unclear at best.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

I don't recall that the IFA disputed or wanted to prevent Derry being able to play in the LOI but stated they would have no objections at that time so I don't think Uefa had to rule on it as such.


And here is a wee nugget fromthe IFA Articles of Association by which Derry City are bound...

Article 3

12.
(a) A member may not seek directly or indirectly to transfer its Membership of the Association

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Bear in mind that DCFC can still play in the LOI without having to transfer its membership.

We've done it already, a s we are currently IFA members.... :)

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Whilst a police escort, sectarian chanting, flag burning and buses being stoned aren't exactly rare elsewhere in European football, they do help build a case that it isn't exactly a conducive fit.

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If such behaviour were to prevent a club playing in a certain location, then the likes of Rangers and Celtic would not be permitted to play in Scotland. or Linfield and Cliftonville in NI.
The fact is, DCFC were prevented from playing IL football at the Brandywell and were unwilling (naturally) to play "home" IL games elsewhere, so were permitted to enter the LOI instead.
There are no longer any extraordinary reasons which would prevent them participating in the IL like every other NI club; therefore the principle that clubs should ordinarily compete in a League within their own National Association's jurisdiction should prevail (imo).

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Also don't ignore the 25 years experience we have built up in the EL. This is also significant.

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Twenty five years experience which also (effectively) included three bankruptcies and a string of debts and unpaid creditors in their wake... Their experience in the LOI might have been happy for them, but theirs are not the only circumstances which bear considering.
In any case, DCFC were not granted their exemption on the basis that they would be happier in the LOI than the IL; rather it was because continued participation in the IL was not feasible. That latter is no longer the case.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I agree however that it is absolutely not a slam dunk, and a combination of Derry's despicable behaviour to its creditors (IL and otherwise) and the lack of goodwill between IFA and FAI after the Gibson case won't help our case.

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Fair point, though whatever the merits and demerits of the Gibson case, I don't think it should have any bearing on DCFC's situation; if nothing else, Gibson was a product of Institute FC, not the Candystripes...

P.S. If the FAI have their way, I suspect the admission of "Derry City Lite" to the LOI will actually be the easiest of "slam dunks". In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Delaney himself holding the steps steady under the basket...

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

I don't recall that the IFA disputed or wanted to prevent Derry being able to play in the LOI but stated they would have no objections at that time so I don't think Uefa had to rule on it as such.

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I could be mistaken, but I thought I read on this forum that it was made clear by UEFA (possibly with a nod to European Law?) that the IFA could not object to DCFC playing in the LOI.
Whether or when the IFA actually did object at any stage is a separate issue, though I'm suspect they may have wanted to, if nothing else out of fear that other clubs might have tried to follow DCFC's example.
Mind you, the example of Alton United of the Falls League in Belfast in the 1920's may be instructive:
"In late 1923, the FAI was admitted to FIFA on condition that it confine its operation to the Irish Free State. Thus, the Falls League was disaffiliated. In 1924, Belfast Celtic re-entered the Irish League, and the Falls League faded"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alton_United_F.C.

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Originally Posted by SMorgan

Just to set you right on the historical basis to Derry City being in the LOI. There were no security reasons why DC could not have gone back to the IL. During the 80s, the then RUC, make it clear that Derry City could play IL football in the Brandywell. It was the powers to be in Windsor Park that used security issues to stop it.

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Quite correct that the RUC considered that the security reasons should not prevent DCFC playing home games at the Brandywell - and you might expect them to be authoritative on that score!
However, a slim majority (I think) of the other 11 IL clubs felt that security reasons made it unsafe for them to play at the Brandywell, hence DCFC's withdrawal from the League. You may consider that majority to have been misguided, even prejudiced, but their view held sway.
(Btw, do you really mean "Windsor Park" - home of Linfield - or Windsor Avenue - home of the IFA? Either way, DCFC's withdrawal was effectively forced by the Irish League (even if the IFA chose not to override them)

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Originally Posted by SMorgan

It's also not right to say that the IL couldn't have prevented DC joining the LOI. They could and indeed it was your very own Mr. Crosson, who was the then chairman of the Irish League, that allowed DC to join the LOI. This was agreed at an inter-league meeting that took place in Oriel Park, Dundalk in 1984.

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Which is it then? If the IL (and IFA) really were out to "get" DCFC (hence the Brandywell ban etc), then why would they also willingly facilitate them in their desire to join the LOI?
I'm not saying you're wrong, and different individuals within the IL held differing views, but I shouldn't be at all surprised if it was the IL/IFA's inability to object which led directly to the inter-league agreement in 1984 on DCFC joining the LOI.

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Originally Posted by SMorgan

During the 80s, the then RUC, make it clear that Derry City could play IL football in the Brandywell. It was the powers to be in Windsor Park that used security issues to stop it.

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was it not a very close vote by the clubs themselves, rather than the ifa as an organisation, that kept derry city out (the application lost by one vote i think)?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Mind you, the example of Alton United of the Falls League in Belfast in the 1920's may be instructive:
"In late 1923, the FAI was admitted to FIFA on condition that it confine its operation to the Irish Free State. Thus, the Falls League was disaffiliated. In 1924, Belfast Celtic re-entered the Irish League, and the Falls League faded"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alton_United_F.C.

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No offence EalingGreen, and reading about Alton United is interesting, but there's no source for that quote on wikipedia. And as the IFA was not a FIFA member at that time I'd question if the FAI's admission to FIFA was subject to this condition especially in consideration of how loosely the make-up of the international teams was regulated back then. Indeed it could be argued that FIFA did not become actively involved in the "Irish/ Northern Irish question" until the 1950s.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Bear in mind that DCFC can still play in the LOI without having to transfer its membership.

We've done it already, a s we are currently IFA members.... :)

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If I understand you right, are you saying that DCFC do not have to transfer their membership of an Association from the IFA to the FAI?

If so, then that much is true, for I'm pretty certain that any club which is located in NI has to be a Member of the IFA, whether or not they participate in an NI League. This explains why, for instance, Cardiff C and Swansea C are still both members of the FAW.

The issue in DCFC's case is twofold however (imo). Since the old DCFC/Wellvan is no more, then its membership of the IFA must presumably also have ceased to exist.
Therefore, any new club setting up in NI, regardless of the background circumstances of its incorporation, must presumably have to apply to the IFA for membership.

Thereafter, assuming that membership was approved, they presumably would have to seek permission, either from UEFA or the IFA (or both), in order to participate in a League outside the jurisdiction of their own Association.

Whether that permission is a mere formality, or would have to be substantively justified, I'm not sure. In principle, however, I feel it ought to be the latter.

Back in the real world, it is clear, as stated above, that the biggest issue is the IL creditors.

Whilst the IFA probably has good right to object on other grounds, politically, there is no reason to. The IL has been happy with Derry not being members and the FAI has been happy to have them. Therefore, realisitically, unless there is a reason for someone to rely on the law to object, then there is no reason to open what would be a huge political can of worms.

However, the 3 IL clubs being creditors is a very good reason to object (I'm assuming C'Ville have a legal agreement that we would pay a portion of Celtics cost, otherwise its two IL creditors). Some way has to be found to make good this debt, otherwise the IFA is almost duty bound to object to NewCo joining the FAI, on behalf of its out of pocket members.

Solve that, and the other problems solve themselves IMO.

Not that that will stop Ealing Green constructing and destructing numerous arguments to the contrary. All on his own.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

If I understand you right, are you saying that DCFC do not have to transfer their membership of an Association from the IFA to the FAI?

If so, then that much is true, for I'm pretty certain that any club which is located in NI has to be a Member of the IFA, whether or not they participate in an NI League. This explains why, for instance, Cardiff C and Swansea C are still both members of the FAW.

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that is correct. a club MUST be a member of the appropriate fa for it's physical location.
that club CAN play in a different fa's jurisdiction, but only with permission (ultimately sanctioned by uefa?) though they will ALWAYS remain as a member of the fa governing their physical location.
and now to the big questions......are derry city a new club? as what you state above about application and re-application would seem correct if they are.
also, derry city no longer are a member of an fai league structure due to their expulsion. isn't that correct? wouldn't any attempt at re-application to the loi require a re-application for their permission to play outside their own fa jurisdiction?

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Whilst the IFA probably has good right to object on other grounds, politically, there is no reason to. The IL has been happy with Derry not being members and the FAI has been happy to have them. Therefore, realisitically, unless there is a reason for someone to rely on the law to object, then there is no reason to open what would be a huge political can of worms.

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have to say i have the opposite view.
there is no genuine reason why derry city (new entity or ongoing entity) need to be in the loi anymore.
the political views or wishes of any club's fans are irrelevant to the need or lack of need for a club to play in a different jurisdiction.

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

have to say i have the opposite view.
there is no genuine reason why derry city (new entity or ongoing entity) need to be in the loi anymore.
the political views or wishes of any club's fans are irrelevant to the need or lack of need for a club to play in a different jurisdiction.

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1) There's obviously a genuine reason to you that they should be in the IL, otherwise you wouldn't have made the point. Laws don't make themselves and people don't hide behind them for no reason.

2) By politics, I meant football politics, not the political beliefs of our fans.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

people don't hide behind them for no reason.

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^not quite sure what "people" you are referring to there.
as for supporters' beliefs, i meant any to be honest, football or political (if used purely as a reason for any kind of justification).

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

^not quite sure what "people" you are referring to there.
as for supporters' beliefs, i meant any to be honest, football or political (if used purely as a reason for any kind of justification).

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I meant anyone who wants to prohibit a Derry City team re-joining the IL.

You are hiding behind the law in my view if your only justification for your position is "because thats the law".

Derry fans have given reasons why they don't agree with the law, but nobody has actually presented a positive reason why Derry City should go into the IL, other than "because the law says so".

Ergo bad law, apply for an exemption.

because i'd like to see derry city back in the irish league. even though i support the club that replaced them, i'd still rather they never felt they had to leave. they are a club in northern ireland and should be playing alongside the rest of the clubs from northern ireland. i just don't like the halfway house situation derry city have been in since 84/5. it seems messy to me.
an il with derry city in it would be improved, to a degree. it's another "bigger" club who might at some stage help break the stranglehold the big 2 have on the competitions and make things a bit interesting and since northern ireland is quite a small place we can't afford not to have a team with the size of derry city's fanbase waltzing off elsewhere without a genuinely strong reason. that's the very simple answer. the reasons may have been strong in the past, but i can't see how they are nowdays.

ps. are you sure that's what you meant to say?! and if so, did you mean in the present or in the past?

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I meant anyone who wants to prohibit a Derry City team re-joining the IL.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Bear in mind that DCFC can still play in the LOI without having to transfer its membership.

We've done it already, a s we are currently IFA members.... :)

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But who is "we?"