Lisbon Treaty

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Originally Posted by mypost

There is of course, more to this referendum than that.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mypost

There is one issue in referendums.

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Which is it?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Which is it?

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This referendum is about the EU. The election is about issues ranging from health-education-transport-infrastructure-economy, etc, etc, etc.

Clearer now?? :confused: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mypost

Every bit as shady, as one coalition partner in favour of it, in order to stay in government.

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Not really, the public can vent their frustration at said coalition partner for misleading them if thats how they feel. Libertas on the other hand, well who the hell are they? They look and sound too much like a US lobby group for my liking, and they lie about issues like our neutrality and taxes

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Originally Posted by mypost

This age-old argument keeps been brought up. :rolleyes: We have done well out of Nice, whereas this offers us no benefit at all.

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No, it's not an age old argument, nor an argument about Nice as such (though I voted No twice) more a comment on the "democratic" process involved. I haven't studied this one at all, and therefore am stuck somewhere between undecided and lazy. After all, if they ain't gonna take no for an answer, you'd have to wonder whats the point ? If I do vote, it'll probably be "No" , just to be perverse. (Certainly not because I'd agree with the "white Ireland" crowd.) As for Neutrality/Security, I happen to value our Neutrality and I am suspicious about a common "defence" policy. I'd also love to know in what way we've benefitted from common "security" Lots of people lining up to attack us, are there ?

Ireland's neutrality is not affected, Ive included a link to the Fianna Fail website but if you google Lisbon Treaty + Irish Neutrality there is umpteen sites with the same info. When Libertas or whoever says we will be part of a European Army they are just lying

http://www.fiannafail.ie/article.php...v=Local%20Item

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Originally Posted by TonyD

No, it's not an age old argument, nor an argument about Nice as such (though I voted No twice) more a comment on the "democratic" process involved.

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Letting the people vote is undemocratic?

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After all, if they ain't gonna take no for an answer, you'd have to wonder whats the point ?

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I gather you're going to ignore what I said about Nice. Did the redrafting to suit the issues that were of concern to us go over your head? Some would've called it a victory.

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As for Neutrality/Security, I happen to value our Neutrality and I am suspicious about a common "defence" policy.

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De fence is something you're sitting on. As for defense, this specifically excludes us from any offensive, or even defensive military action. It recommends that we should do our best to help out in times of crisis e.g. flooding/terrorist attacks - i.e. if bin Laden is broadcasting from Moyross we're expected to try to round him up.

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I'd also love to know in what way we've benefitted from common "security" Lots of people lining up to attack us, are there ?

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Do you think many other countries would get away with having next to no armed forces? At one point a few years ago every armoured vehicle we have was on one street for a parade. If not having to bother our arses, so much so that we can afford to let Willy O'Dea in charge of it, isn't a benefit, I don't know what is.

You'll take that back about Willie when he's called in to map out the Moyross raid before Operation Do Something About Osama You Irish Idiots

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Letting the people vote is undemocratic?

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No, but ignoring the result of that vote is.

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Originally Posted by jebus

You'll take that back about Willie when he's called in to map out the Moyross raid before Operation Do Something About Osama You Irish Idiots

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Sounds like a series of 24.
Willy O'Dea has 24 hours to track down Usama before the Hillary/McCain 08 ticket nukes the south west.
The twist is when Galway fans try to scupper the operation.

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Originally Posted by DaveyCakes

No, but ignoring the result of that vote is.

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When did this happen?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Sounds like a series of 24.
Willy O'Dea has 24 hours to track down Usama before the Hillary/McCain 08 ticket nukes the south west.
The twist is when Galway fans try to scupper the operation.

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Galway fans! Please God let Hilary drop that nuke

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Originally Posted by jebus

Not really, the public can vent their frustration at said coalition partner for misleading them if thats how they feel.

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Can't do anything for another 4 years.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Can't do anything for another 4 years.

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So? They'll never be able to do anything against Libertas for misleading them

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

When did this happen?

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You know as well as anyone else when it happened

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Originally Posted by DaveyCakes

You know as well as anyone else when it happened

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Someone who says something untrue through ignorance is misinformed. Someone who says something untrue despite awareness of the truth, is a liar.

The Nice Treaty was rejected in Ireland because of the ambiguity surrounding our neutrality. Once rejected, the EU leaders went ahead and rewrote it, clarifying that we retained our traditional neutral status. With the Nice treaty modified as we had democratically asked for it to be, it was then put before the people again, and this time passed. If there's a case that they should use to teach children about the beauty of the democratic process, its the Nice treaty.

You are informed. Now, when did anyone ignore the result of a vote?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

The Nice Treaty was rejected in Ireland because of the ambiguity surrounding our neutrality. Once rejected, the EU leaders went ahead and rewrote it, clarifying that we retained our traditional neutral status.

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The Nice Treaty failed for 2 reasons;

• Government arrogance
• Record low turnout.

The Nice Treaty wasn't re-written, a declaration was drafted stating Ireland's neutrality.

The EU Constitution, when ratified will render the Nice and all previous treaties, obsolete.

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Originally Posted by mypost

The EU Constitution, when ratified will render the Nice and all previous treaties, obsolete.

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That is a strange statement given that the Treaty is only readable in the context of the existing Treaties (i.e. "Article X of the Treaty on Eurpean Union will be amended by the addition of the words.....).

How exactly does it render all previous Treaties obsolete, given that the two Treaties (EC and EU) will remain (albeit with one renamed)?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Letting the people vote is undemocratic?
I gather you're going to ignore what I said about Nice. Did the redrafting to suit the issues that were of concern to us go over your head? Some would've called it a victory. I'll bow to your superior knowledge of the fine detail of the Nice treaty, but as far as I can remember the 2nd referendum was pushed through mainly on the fear of somehow threatning our prosperity. And I'd also guess that the Nuetrality issue was only one of a number of factors in the No vote.De fence is something you're sitting on. As for defense,
Really ? We have a Minister for, and Department of, Defence. Maybe you're American ? I'll stick with the Irish version of the word if you don't mind. If you're going to correct someones spelling to try to make yourself look big and clever, then it's probably a good idea to make sure you're right.
this specifically excludes us from any offensive, or even defensive military action. It recommends We're obliged to assist, with no definition of what form this assistance would take, according to the Referendum Commission Handbook that we should do our best to help out in times of crisis e.g. flooding/terrorist attacks - i.e. if bin Laden is broadcasting from Moyross we're expected to try to round him up.
Do you think many other countries would get away with having next to no armed forces? I have no idea, but maybe it would be no bad thing. I ask again, do you think there's a que forming to invade Ireland ? At one point a few years ago every armoured vehicle we have was on one street for a parade. If not having to bother our arses, so much so that we can afford to let Willy O'Dea in charge of it, isn't a benefit, I don't know what is.

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PS - Osama wouldn't go near Moyross. No way is he hard enough. :p

Still trying to find a credible organisation that is backing a No vote. So far there options are Shinners preaching about Militarisation, Bible Bashers warning against democracy (Three Monkeys posters), Former Commies warning against sovereignty, Shady organisation probably backed by US Military interests warning against democracy, abortion & neutrality. How can any of these organisations be taken seriously?

At least on the Yes side it is obvious why the organisations want the Treaty passed.

From what I have read the Lisbon Treaty (based on EU Constitution) has been created based on the biggest consultation process ever undertaken in Europe.

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Originally Posted by pete

Still trying to find a credible organisation that is backing a No vote. At least on the Yes side it is obvious why the organisations want the Treaty passed.

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And we're still looking for the Yes side to come up with A credible reason why this treaty benefits Ireland. :confused:

It doesn't really matter who is "for" or "against" it, the constitution is about substance, or lack of it, and with 5 parties obliged to support it, someone has to take up the case for the no side.

I wasn't consulted about it. Anyone?

You could probably draw up a list of who was consulted by copying and pasting committe and subcommittee names from the EU site, plus of course a full list of EU lobbyists...

adam

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Originally Posted by mypost

And we're still looking for the Yes side to come up with A credible reason why this treaty benefits Ireland. :confused:

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This treaty is not about Ireland, it's about Europe. There is more to Europe than Ireland and how it benefits Ireland. I'm voting on my opinion as a European, not Irish.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I wasn't consulted about it. Anyone?

You could probably draw up a list of who was consulted by copying and pasting committee and subcommittee names from the EU site, plus of course a full list of EU lobbyists...

adam

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I know Wikipedia not a definitive source. Consultation was for the EU Constitution which the Lisbon Treaty is largely based on.

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The European Convention was established with 105 members, chaired by former French president Valéry Giscard d'Estaing. Its members were drawn from the national parliaments of member states and candidate countries, the European Parliament, the European Commission, and representatives of heads of state and government. The Convention met for the first time in February 2002, and met thereafter in plenary session once or twice per month. It deliberated in public in the European Parliament building in Brussels.

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All these people are elected or former elected officials.

I presume EU lobbiest would be include the likes of Big Business, small business, farmers, environmentalists & trade unions.

Like many Treaties hard to find a direct benefit to Ireland. The EU will be a more effective organisation with administrative changes in the Treaty which indirectly benefits Ireland as many of the Irish laws come indirectly from the EU.

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Originally Posted by pete

Like many Treaties hard to find a direct benefit to Ireland. The EU will be a more effective organisation with administrative changes in the Treaty which indirectly benefits Ireland as many of the Irish laws come indirectly from the EU.

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How come 27 Commissioners is too many for the whole EU, but the Government here have, what is it now, 35 ministers for just Ireland?

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Originally Posted by Macy

How come 27 Commissioners is too many for the whole EU, but the Government here have, what is it now, 35 ministers for just Ireland?

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Yes, 35 Ministers & Ministers for State in Ireland. Give me a Referendum which limits to say 25 in Irish Constitution & I will vote Yes. Fianna Fail increased the Ministers for State to 20. Maybe we could get the EU to impose a limit on us?

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Originally Posted by pete

Yes, 35 Ministers & Ministers for State in Ireland....
Fianna Fail increased the Ministers for State to 20.

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So how can credibly argue that 27 is too many for the EU? Efficiency me arse.

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Originally Posted by Macy

So how can credibly argue that 27 is too many for the EU? Efficiency me arse.

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If I said there should be no Ministers for State in Ireland would that be acceptable. To ensure they had 27 Commissioners they had to basically invent roles. With extra members that gets worse.

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Originally Posted by pete

Still trying to find a credible organisation that is backing a No vote. So far there options are Shinners preaching about Militarisation, Bible Bashers warning against democracy (Three Monkeys posters), Former Commies warning against sovereignty, Shady organisation probably backed by US Military interests warning against democracy, abortion & neutrality. How can any of these organisations be taken seriously?

At least on the Yes side it is obvious why the organisations want the Treaty passed.

From what I have read the Lisbon Treaty (based on EU Constitution) has been created based on the biggest consultation process ever undertaken in Europe.

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Starting looking at posters the past couple of days.

reasons to vote no;
If FF and FG both think its right, it can't be good.

Reasons to vote yes;
shameful emotive language like "people died for your freedom...."

I'll probably vote no, just to see if they'll pull a mulligan like Nice and see if they can force it through this time too


Oh and the number of EU ministers is a ridiculously pedantic point. I'd guess there is at least 50 different "topics" that could have ministers. can't see why having specialised ministers is worse than general types like "Finance"

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Originally Posted by mypost

And we're still looking for the Yes side to come up with A credible reason why this treaty benefits Ireland. :confused:

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What's good for the EU is good for Ireland. This treaty wasn't supposed to be about 4 million people holding 491.5 million hostage for the "best deal". No credible person can deny this is true; instead people are being fed lies about mandatory military service, abortions, taxation and privatised health care, by the shinner isolationist fascists and their issues with Mandelson, and by some shady faceless US funded lobby group.

Reasons to Vote based various groups

Yes
FF - Good for Ireland & Europe
FG - Better to be inside than outside.
IBEC - Good for jobs.
Labour - ?
Greens - ?
PDs - ?

No
Right Wing Religious - Europe won't listen to us (3 monkeys)
SF - Renegotiate the Treaty
Libertas - Undemocratic/Militaristation
Unknown group - Sovereignty (1916 poster)
No Alliance or something - Because France & Holland voted that way.
Socialists/Workers Party - ?

IMO voting No just because France & Holland rejected the Constitution is the most bizarre logic.

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Originally Posted by pete

Socialists/Workers Party - ?

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Embeds privatisation/ competition agenda, contains clauses on business rights but not workers rights, militarisation and common defence.

Biffo is actually the best thing that's happened to the no campaign - his recent bully boy tactics on the treaty of FG and Labour supporters has got peoples backs up and I know several that jacking in campaigning on it since he had the go. A bit bizarre, as for most of the time FG have been leading the campaign - now they have their chance to distance themselves from the result which looks more dodgy after recent polls, and recent EU interventions.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

What's good for the EU is good for Ireland.

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Originally Posted by pete

FF - Good for Ireland & Europe

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I've not followed this issue closely because I can't vote on it, but from what I've seen on this site, the issue seems to be that when pressed to explain specifically how this treaty is good for Ireland, the 'yes' side have had a lot of trouble doing so.

Is that correct?

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Originally Posted by pete

Unknown group - Sovereignty (1916 poster)

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That group is called 'Coir'.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

I've not followed this issue closely because I can't vote on it, but from what I've seen on this site, the issue seems to be that when pressed to explain specifically how this treaty is good for Ireland, the 'yes' side have had a lot of trouble doing so.

Is that correct?

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yes.

I forgot to add a reason to vote no was that IBEC are urging people to vote yes on the basis of job creation. LOL

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

That group is called 'Coir'.

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Well they've no web presence as searches have informed me that Coir is the fiberous husk as the base of a coconut.

The logic of such people does irritate me I must admit ...namely that we can never do anything that mightn't sit well with those who "died for our freedom". What's our freedom worth if we're expected to facilitate Paddy Pearses wish (unexpressed at that) to wield executive clout from the grave?

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Well they've no web presence as searches have informed me that Coir is the fiberous husk as the base of a coconut.

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Here is where I seen it:

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Originally Posted by Irish Examiner

THE Labour party has criticised one of the groups supporting a no vote in the Lisbon treaty referendum, claiming it was revisiting “alarmist” tactics used in the 1995 divorce referendum.

Coir, campaigning against the treaty, erected posters bearing messages such as “People died for your freedom — don’t throw it all away”. Another says “Lisbon: it will cost you more tax — less power”.

Labour, backing the treaty, claimed such messages were “deliberately misleading”. The party claimed Coir was associated with those who had erected the “Hello Divorce: Goodbye Daddy” posters in the referendum of 13 years ago.

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http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer...story62801.asp


EDIT: Here is their website - http://www.lisbonvote.com/

'Click here for funny Lisbon video'... :rolleyes:

An 'adult' told a kid in my class that if this gets passed then all kids will have to join the army when they are 18.......how do you respond to rubbish like that?

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

That group is called 'Coir'.

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I thought they were the religious nuts with the 3 monkeys posters? :confused:

btw the post above was just trying outline the reasons the various groups were urging a vote one way or the other not to explain the logic.

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Originally Posted by pete

I thought they were the religious nuts with the 3 monkeys posters? :confused:

btw the post above was just trying outline the reasons the various groups were urging a vote one way or the other not to explain the logic.

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The Irish Examiner article I posted above claims they are also behind the 'Don't throw away your freedom' posters too... :confused:

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Originally Posted by micls

An 'adult' told a kid in my class that if this gets passed then all kids will have to join the army when they are 18.......how do you respond to rubbish like that?

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Tell them it'll toughen 'em up and prepare them better for live in general