If that is the case it shows how little they know about IL football too! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Printable View
If that is the case it shows how little they know about IL football too! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Anyone got a link to it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raheny Red
Well said that man.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The button between reply and quote is a multi quote button, by the way. ;)
Who mentioned that it would solve "all our problems"?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think thats quite a reasonable expectation. Quite a few different clubs have averaged that over a couple of seasons, its just never been sustainable in the long-term.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Of course you can!!! Lots of people come up with visions in every walk of life and do exactly what you say can't be done, ie change the status quo. Most fail, but some succeed. You may not like the way its being done, or the chance of success (I'd tend to agree somewhat with both) but it can be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Do I? Why? That sounds like something someone in Abbotstown would say.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Surely that reinforces the need for change and specifically taking the future out of the hands of those who had a hand in its lack of success to date?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I'm not going to get into a critique of Jim Roddy, suffice to say I don't believe you know him well enough to make that assessment. What is fairly well known is that Fintan Drury is no fool, and he's certainly surrounded by enough of them who currently administer domestic football.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Oh wow... One of your more deluded posts ever...
It's the general feeling from pro-AIL people on this thread. Throw a load of money at the league and it'll all get better. You, for example, trot out the old cliche that "the Eircom League has and is unsustainable in its current shape", while noting that "Full-time football has a better chance of being sustainable under an AIL model due to the cash on offer (let's leave aside the permanence of this cashflow)". So, while noting one massive problem with the plan, you believe the AIL will turn around a doomed league (an "unsustainable" one) through a vague combination of "infrastructure, marketing and proper administration". I don't hold to the cliche of "Build it and they willl come" (the old Donnybrook ground disproves that), proper administration won't really change that much and we've had more marketing in the past couple of seasons (CPOs, TV games for example) than ever before and nothing's changed.Quote:
Who mentioned that it would solve "all our problems"?
The clubs who have gotten over 3000 averages going on the foot.ie figures are Derry (2006) and Cork (2005 and 2004). I don't think that constitutes "Quite a few" by any stretch of the imagination. Only two others have broken 2000 in a season - Galway (2007) and Shels (2004). Sustainability is huge issue, and one you gloss over. The reason the clubs mentioned got high attendances is because they were going for the title (or, in Galway's case, because they gave away loads of season tickets and counted them in their crowds).Quote:
Quite a few different clubs have averaged that over a couple of seasons, it's just never been sustainable in the long-term.
You'll find the more common way of bringing in radical change is to evaluate it carefully, and show how the change is going to lead to the result. That's classified as "scene missing" so far.Quote:
Lots of people come up with visions in every walk of life and do exactly what you say can't be done, ie change the status quo. Most fail, but some succeed. You may not like the way its being done, or the chance of success (I'd tend to agree somewhat with both) but it can be done.
Do you absolve the clubs of all blame then? I wouldn't. Not by a long shot.Quote:
Surely that reinforces the need for change and specifically taking the future out of the hands of those who had a hand in its lack of failure to date?
Quote:
That sounds like something someone in Abbotstown would say.
As to why you have to realise the league's place - it's so you don't make stupid, easily disprovable, assertions such as the one you made on clubs' attendances.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I've actually discussed (or rather, listened to him talk non-stop to me) his views on this matter with him. He's a moron when it comes to planning things like this. I'm quite happy in my assessment of him, thank you very much.Quote:
I'm not going to get into a critique of Jim Roddy, suffice to say I don't believe you know him well enough to make that assessment.
Having met him a couple of times and listened to him at length he did seem to have a lot of ideas and visions which could not be achieved by what he was suggesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Where is the "thank you" button? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Always thought a Thank You button was kind of a gay idea... ;)
Cheerful? Homoerotic?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
*hunts for "**** You" button ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Given that you managed to proxy 3 or 4 years of guesstimated attendences into a full history of the League, I think you are as guilty of shaping the past to suit your view of the future as I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Many of those figures were official. But are you suggesting that they're out by 50% or so?
How would you back up your claim that "Quite a few different clubs have averaged that over a couple of seasons"?
I specifically didn't say the last couple of seasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Waterford, Rovers, Bohs, Shels, Derry, Dundalk and others have all had periods where relatively large crowds attended games over a number of seasons before slipping away for various reasons.
Over 3000 average? Want to show me when? Or do you want to keep making stuff up? (Note - the 50s don't count)
Do you think clubs finishing bottom half in the AIL will maintain this average? Or will they slip away for the "various reasons" you note (main one being Irish people are a crowd of band wagon jumpers who are happy to support their local team if there's a title or Cup on the way)
I'll just get in my time machine......Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Are you disputing that certain clubs had attendences over 3,000 in the 70's, 80's & 90's? And I'm the deluded one?!
Different question. I thought an accountant would realise that an average involves a summing up a number of observations and taking the mean. An average attendence of 3,000 across the League is achievable IMO. Obviously there will be dispersion with the top teams averaging more and the bottom sides less, I would imagine.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Oh I see. So now you reckon that, if the bottom clubs are getting 2000, the top clubs will be getting 4000?! Unlikely. In any case, the criterion is for 3000 crowds, which means any team dropping below that may have consequences.
The average eL Premier Division crowd for 2007 was 1500-ish. It won't double just because we bring Linfield in.
I don't think any club has, in the past decade or two, consistently gotten above 3000 averages. I'm still waiting for you to show me any evidence otherwise. Until then, your arguments are pure pie in the sky. At least I've provided some sort of source.
Yes, that would result in an average of 3,000.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Right back at ya. This is your interpretation of a statement and is far from fact. Nothing like double standards.......Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Quoting opinion as fact yet again......Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Off the top of my head, Derry City averaged approx 5,000 in their first decade in the League. You've no basis for disputing this, other than the fact I don't have official attendence figures. Evidence going back that far is going to be anecdotal, so you've asked a question that can't be answered. Clever.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Well done; nothing like pointless sarcasm to completely ignore the point made.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Don't see how it's double standards to understand what words like "criteria" mean.Quote:
Right back at ya. This is your interpretation of a statement and is far from fact. Nothing like double standards.......
Hmmm...doubling our crowds hasn't happened in the past ten years...I'm going to guess it's not going to happen overnight. Not the most scientific method, but enough to cast doubts on the benefits being mooted of an AIL.Quote:
Quoting opinion as fact yet again......
Too far back to be relevant now though. Different country, unfortunately. We can watch Premiership football instead of going to the Brandywell. As a good chunk of those people are now doing.Quote:
Off the top of my head, Derry City averaged approx 5,000 in their first decade in the League. You've no basis for disputing this, other than the fact I don't have official attendence figures.
You've provided no reasons to believe that the AIL will help as much as you suggest. You've provided no basis for suggesting the eL is "unsustainable in its current format". You openly ignore the sustainability of any investment in this new league. Yet you pour scorn on any who suggest that we stop and think about this before going forward? Sorry, that's just nonsense.
You asked me to quote an example since the 60's. I did. Are you sure you're moving the goalposts quick enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Cheap shots are a sign you're losing this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Thats not what we were talking about. Read back a few pages and you'll find my reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
As stated previously, Shels, Cork, Longford....how many examples do you need?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I actually think I raised the question about its sustainability myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The vast majority of what I have read over the length of this thread was very far from "stopping and thinking". It was outright rubbishing each and ever facet of the proposal that was made public, mostly driven by the selective nature of the proposed League. Whilst I'm very open to the idea of the AIL until I hear things I don't like, most of the negative posters have ruled it out based on limited information and self-interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
No I didn't. Not unless you're taking everything extremely literally. My point that the 50s don't count was an indication that you can't go too far back in time, not an indication to start reckoning from 1960.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
:rolleyes: Ireland is a different country to how it was 20 years ago, not Derry is in a different country.Quote:
Cheap shots are a sign you're losing this one.
What has that got to do with the sustainability of the league in its current format? That's simply an issue of club directors being idiots. Different matter. Changing the league won't change the directors' attitudes towards money. Putting in and enforcing a wage cap will.Quote:
As stated previously, Shels, Cork, Longford....how many examples do you need?
And that last is one of the main factors behind this AIL, which in fact indicates that the big clubs are quite happy to actively continue being unsustainable, which is one of the main reasons I (and others, who've noted this point on the thread) am opposed to the plans as they are. You've merely countered this with the hilarious notion that "Bigger money generally buys better administrators."
With regards ignoring lower teams, which you've repeatedly stated you're happy to do, this would obviously be done through reduced promotion and relegation. This will more than likely lead to stagnation, as seen in the First Division, where the same teams finish bottom every year. Relegation and promotion is a key component of leagues and should be encouraged, not suppressed. There's hardly a successful league in the world which operates a closed shop system.
Your posts on this thread seem to equate roughly to an ADHD kid - "This has failed - let's try this now!". We've been at a crossroads before (summer soccer, ten team league, twelve team league, Genesis) - nothing much changed, and if we go ahead with the AIL under the current proposals, there's no reason not to believe that nothing much will change (again) and we'll be here (again) in a couple of years with you going "This has failed - let's try this now!", while you blame your failure to attract 4000 average crowds on the small clubs and their fans ("Why on earth is it "fair" that my team should be held back...by other clubs...?").
That's the central issue causing reservation among people, not some huge conspiracy to keep the otherwise-mighty Derry City from rising far far above us.
OneRedArmy now -OneRedArmy two weeks ago -Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
At least I was honest about my self interest. I wasn't claiming objectivity the same way many negative posters were.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Most of the negative posters have put up long-winded and ridiculously rose-tinted views of the current structure (many of said posters have spent the last 5 years on here ridiculing the EL/FAI administration) when its abundantly clear their major beef is that they will be initially excluded from the League and will be more difficult to get into the top tier on an ongoing basis.
I'm not going to go round in circles again on this but I don't believe there is a way to bring all clubs up together. Progress will result in increased inequality, the same way its done is pretty much every other league in the world.
I know for a fact that the year Willie McStay was with us and we won Three Trophies the average crowd at the Showgrounds was 5,000 and the following year under Lawrie Sanchez it was similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I don't think any club has, in the past decade or two, consistently gotten above 3000 averages.
I know this is probably irrelevant but watching Match of the Day last night the attendance at the Millwall v Walsall and Norwich v Bury FA Cup replays were just over 4,000
To be honest - with the exception of Shamrock Rovers and maybe one or two other teams, I'd say thgere has been a significant increase in support levels for the league over the last 10-15yrs. I can remember a time in the 90's when teams like Bohs, Cork, Pats, Longford, had much lower average support than they do now. But that's an aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Network 2 showed live English football on Saturday afternoons back in the late 80's/early 90's. I rememebr distionctly watching games, and the fact that publicans in England were going crazy trying to get big enough satellites to pick the channel up at the time....Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Regardless - City played on a different day than Premiership games. As we still do (as in, fact, all EL clubs do).
Linfield aren't the thing that'd make an AIL proposal work. The key thing is the prospect of a professional sports promotion business (i.e. one that knows how to promote sport) with a direct financial incentive in the league succeeding (because they make more money if it does) putting what one would expect would be a relatively substantial sum of money into professionally promoting the league. Something that has never happened before, and is extremely unlikely to happen under eithe rthe FAI or IFA independently.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
If you refuse to accept that that has the potential to have a significant and noticeable impact on attendances at Irish football, then we may as well all give up - as to believe that would be to believe that there is effectively no future for Irish football beyond the medicore product we currently have.
That is why I can see an AIL causing a significant uplift in attendances across the board. Currently, I can see no other alternative way of doing it in any sort of sensible time-scale and across the board. Can you ?
I'm not trying to big up Linfield or anything, but if this AIL isn’t about getting Linfield and to a lesser extent Glentoran playing regulary with the big boys of the Eircom league then what’s the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I think it is generally accepted that for all these things to happen they need the Big One and Glentoran to participate.
If what you say is correct and the Blues and Glens are not needed to make this work then why try to coax us in? Why not go with what you have now?
Or are you wrong and for these proposals to take off they NEED Linfield & Glentoran(I truly think they don’t give a monkeys about Glentoran as a single entity, but they know for Linfield to make the jump they need to get Glentoran as well)
Linfield and the Glens provide the "news" that will get people excited and get the media interested. They also provide 2 'big' clubs to go alongside the EL's 'big' clubs. So in that way they are necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
But if you're suggesting that the lure of Linfield and Glentoran, when added to a load of Eircom League teams, would be sufficientin-of it's own for an AIL to work, then you're wrong. The Setanta Cup clearly shows this. Increased professional Marketing of the EL on its own without the Belfats clubs would undoubtedly improve the league's standing - but it would be a lot slower and wouldn't have the 'big bang' effect of having something substantially new to hook the marketing on, so it would be less successful.
So the Northern teams provide the 'news' around which the marketing can create excitement. But without the marketing, they wouldn't make any sizeable difference on their own (again - as shown by the Setanta Cup). Sorry to burst the perennial bubble of Linfield self-importance...:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
As Linfield has shown already in SC we consistantly bring the biggest crowds and we are consistantly challanging. It's not like we need an AIL either sorry to burst your bubble small fry;)
Conversely to your own inflated claims, I never said Linfield needed an AIL !Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
I have no doubt the Blues would rather remain a whale in a duck pond.
Ironically - it seems their fate in this regards may well rest in the hands of their bitter rivals Glentoran, more than it does their own.
As Linfield has proved, we are quite dominant whether we play Northern Ireland sides or Eircom League sides. With only 1 team marginally more successful and even then they needed pens to beat us when we where out on our feet(due to a hectic season coming to an end)Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
So whether a whale in a duck pond or not, we have proved our class in every tournement played on this island.
We have nothing to prove
If an AIL takes of and is a success without them, they wont be much of a whale, as they wont be generating enough money to compete with the glens for wages etc. the marketing and prize money etc will be much greater for the teams in the AIL, they will be left playing (no disrespect to the clubs) the likes of limivady, dungannon, institute etc. how long would the fans turn up, especially with the bigger teams in the IL playing the bigger teams in the EL, and all the tv coverage etc. all focused on the glens.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Conversely an AIL does need the likes of linfield, glentoran, newry etc.
to market the league and make the money from it, they need the catchment
of the entire population of Ireland north & south, and Linfield's fan base and more important prospective fan base would provide a massive boost to that.
I think long term linfield needs an AIL to progress and an AIL needs linfield
Realistically they wont happen without each other (even if the glens jump ship)
I think you will see a different layout this season with the leveling of the playing fields, re dates for the games in the groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
I think it will suit IL teams more than LOI teams to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyderry
Linfields most success in the SC was when the matches where in November. So I'm now more expectant than ever in this years SC as we wont be out on our feet like the last two seasons.
But that was while you were having success (assuming I get over my initial scepticism of a sentence with the word "fact" so prominently featuring. Didn't keep up in the long run, which is my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redie
Disagree really. Certainly, even five or six years back, Shels, Bohs, Pat's and Rovers brought a lot more to Belfield than they do now. From what I've seen, there hasn't been a significant improvement in the past decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Not relevant. People associate with English clubs. They "support" English clubs. One live top game a week versus twenty live top games a week - it's all the easier to ignore the eL/IL/AIL now. That's my point.Quote:
Network 2 showed live English football on Saturday afternoons back in the late 80's/early 90's
Regardless - City played on a different day than Premiership games. As we still do (as in, fact, all EL clubs do).
The Setanta Cup didn't have any significant and noticeable (seriously - bold italics and underline just scream "Ignore me") impact on attendances. Summer soccer didn't. Ten team/twelve team league didn't. European success didn't. Full time clubs didn't. 30+ live games a season didn't. Why's this going to be any different? That's why I still think that an AIL is not nearly as important as people make it out to be.Quote:
If you refuse to accept that that has the potential to have a significant and noticeable impact on attendances at Irish football, then we may as well all give up - as to believe that would be to believe that there is effectively no future for Irish football beyond the medicore product we currently have.
I'm talkign a little bit further back than that - back to the mid-90's, from which time there has been a noticeable increase in general support levels at most clubs. How long have been following LOI, out of curiousity ?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
This is shockingly obvious PS.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
There was practically no marketing put behind any of the above - including the Setanta Cup. On the contrary, a wealthy professional sports marketing group (the hint is in their job description) are looking to establish a league that they will directly benefit from financially if it a success. That would suggest to be that they have the knowledge, experience, finances/access to finances and will to successfully market Irish football for the first time, er, ever....! I don't believe weither the FAI or IFA can meet any one of the 4 criteria above (or maybe one - experience - at a stretch).
That's why it'll be different. Or do yuo just think Platinum would set-up a new league and then sit back without making any efforts to promote it....? :confused: If not, then you've answered your own question....
Holy S**t! Is this CSI Dublin. Do you spend your day forensically analysing every post. 'I know for a fact' is a turn of phrase that was inserted almost sub-consciously and the word fact is no more prominent than any other word in the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
But that was while you were having success (assuming I get over my initial scepticism of a sentence with the word "fact" so prominently featuring. Didn't keep up in the long run, which is my point.
By the way I would find it very hard to argue with your deduction that we got big crowds that year because we were 'having success'.
Now your taking the ****, just because less opposition fans travel to that kip you call a ground, where its always freezing, the stand always looks ready to collapse, the football is crap on a tiny pitch where no one ever produces decent football. It has to be the worst experience of an away ground in the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Off course the away fans at the ground have deteriorated over the years, maybe the new ground and pitch might be better, here's praying.
Its the home crowds of these clubs that count.
Even when the weather IS good there (the very odd time with summer football), the Nazi's you call stewards force you into the stand so it actually looks like there are people there.
Delaney says "careful now" in BBC article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...sh/7193678.stm
This is a significant step IMO, despite the mildly negative headline.
So we have confirmation that the FAI are in favour of an AIL and have discussed it with the IFA. Timing and control of this league are all a matter of negotiation between the associations and the clubs that are driving this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny D
The clubs have made noises about starting the league as early as this year which always seemed like a tactic to show that they are serious and get the story out into the public domain. IFA say "Not this year", FAI say "Not before 2012" (due to some mysterious contract - new TV contract? eircom sponsorship contract?)
It will now be up to the various parties to come up with their real bargaining positions and work out a deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry The Saint
It refers to the Participation Agreement signed in 2007, which binds the clubs for five years. I assume those involved in the Platnium One are in discussions with legal sources as to how clubs can get out of this agreement.