Love Ulster March

Pete, you claim that the march was not an Orange march. If so why did the organisers feel the need to invite marching bands? What was their role in the demo?

IMO the role of the bands was to provoe the type of people who looted and riot and to use the actions of this lunatic fringe of Republicanism to tranish the agenda of Republicanism as a whole. This was not a protest it was a direct plea from Unionism to Nationalists to cause mayhem which could be said to be typical of any future 32 county Ireland.

The bands, Willie Frazier not promising that pictures of the Dublin bomber would be carried, the flags, the rhetoric.....this was all meant to get the people of Dublin furious and baying for blood.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

So let me get this straight. The validity of someone's views, and the strength of the arguement they present to support those views, is based NOT upon the quality of the opinions they present, the evidence they provide to support them, and thereby the overall strength of their arguement - but has more to do with where they are geographically located at the particular time that they make that arguement ?? :confused:
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Didn't you imply in an earlier post that the opinions of those who unfurl a "Bloody Sunday" banner without ever having been to Derry were not valid?

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Originally Posted by Marked Man

those who unfurl a "Bloody Sunday" banner without ever having been to Derry

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| would like to chalenge those who unfurled the banner to name even one of the victims who died on bloody sunday then we'd see the validity of their opinion

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Originally Posted by Speranza

The bands, Willie Frazier not promising that pictures of the Dublin bomber would be carried, the flags, the rhetoric.....this was all meant to get the people of Dublin furious and baying for blood.

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The people of Dublin weren't furious and baying for blood. The people of Dublin showed that they are grown up and secure enough in our own identity to rise above any perceived provocation by the marchers.

It was mainly a crowd of 200/300 little hooligans who used it a perfect excuse for have a go at the guards and get their hands on some new tracksuits without paying. This should have been anticipated by the gardai management and dealt with appropriately without letting it get out of hand.

I didn't claim the people of Dublin rose to the provocation. I said that the Love Ulster group did everything in their power to bring about a situation where the riots e.t.c. would occur weather it be 100's or 1000's they didn't really care. One stone throwing incident would have meant success for their agenda.

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Originally Posted by Marked Man

Didn't you imply in an earlier post that the opinions of those who unfurl a "Bloody Sunday" banner without ever having been to Derry were not valid?

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In the full context of my statement, yes ! It was to show that the idiots holding up a Bloody Sunday banner with their faces masked are highly unlikely to have any genuine knowledge, understanding, or concern for the event. If they were genuinely concerned about Bloody Sunday - then why did they feel the need to have their identities masked whilst they unfurled the banner ? Let's not kid ourselves here - they were just hijacking a nationalist 'grievance' to have a go at the Love Ulster lot. I didn't say their views were invalid unless they had actually been eyes witnesses to Bloody Sunday, or in the city at the time that they produced their banner - which is exactly the type of nonesense that is being touted on here as the only way to have a valid opinion !

If they were genuinely concerned about Bloody Sunday, they could make the effort of going on one of the annual commemoration marches that occurs in the city, for example, or visit the monument in Rossville Street. But i doubt they really give a feck about Bloody Sunday. As Block G said - they'd struggle to name you a single person who got shot that day. I reckon they'd even struggle to tell you the year, let alone the actual date....

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

| would like to chalenge those who unfurled the banner to name even one of the victims who died on bloody sunday then we'd see the validity of their opinion

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I couldn't name one of the people who died as a result of the Nagasaki bombing; I don't see how that invalidates an opinion regarding the moral status of the bombing. In general, I don't see it as a necessary precondition on a moral judgment that you have to be able to name the victims.

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Originally Posted by Marked Man

I couldn't name one of the people who died as a result of the Nagasaki bombing; I don't see how that invalidates an opinion regarding the moral status of the bombing. In general, I don't see it as a necessary precondition on a moral judgment that you have to be able to name the victims.

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Have you been unveiling Posters with your identify hidden? Have you attacked any US parades recently & gone on a rampage. Its fairly obvious now that RSF used the unionists protest to encourage local scumbags to attack the gardai (of the state they do not recognise but hid under its protection in the past) & people on the other side that they have bigotted opinions of.

99.9% of couldn't care less if some marching band went down O'Connell st. There was no peaceful protest by locals. RSF just used this as excuse to import their bigotry to the Republic. Most people in the Republic do not want anything to do with that.

The title of this thread should be changed it wasn't Republicans rioting it was local teenagers attacking the cops

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Originally Posted by pete

99.9% of couldn't care less if some marching band went down O'Connell st.

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I;d disagree with that pete. I'd guess quite a lot of people didn't want to happen.

99.999% weren't involved in the riots. Don't think that only those involved inn the riots were against this. And don't think all those against it were republicans either

All I know is that right now some chaps are enjoying free Nike trainers

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Originally Posted by Marked Man

I couldn't name one of the people who died as a result of the Nagasaki bombing; I don't see how that invalidates an opinion regarding the moral status of the bombing. In general, I don't see it as a necessary precondition on a moral judgment that you have to be able to name the victims.

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Thats a fair point to a degree but I think that anyone with a real interest in the history of this country(particularly the "troubles") would have no problem naming most if not all of the victims of one of the worst cases of mass murder this country has ever seen

I have a degree in history and cant name them...

If people disagreed with the protest march enough they could have had a peaceful protest. Since there seems to have been no protest then i can assume they didn't care enough about it.

Most people are bored of the constant bickering my minorities on both sides in Northern Ireland & don't want it imported down here.

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Originally Posted by pete

Most people are bored of the constant bickering by minorities on both sides in Northern Ireland & don't want it imported down here.

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I would say that is the view of the majority down here.

What really happened...

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Originally Posted by pete

99.9% of couldn't care less if some marching band went down O'Connell st. There was no peaceful protest by locals.

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Thats not true at all, most people I've talked to in Limerick and Cork about it anyway didn't want to see the UVF marching down O'Connell St. They also didn't want to see the RSF tearing the streets apart but thats besides the point. I reckon a good 50% of people wouldn't want Unionists marching through Dublin, whilst about 25% would be undecided (i.e. don't care either way). Just a rough estimate on people from work, college, friends etc. that I've talked to about it.

and I have to ask if you were there on Saturday or are you just going on what you've read or seen in the media? Because if you actually made your way up to the church (i think it was a church anyway, certainly looked like one) where the UVF/LoveUlster parade had gathered behind the guards then you would have seen plenty of people peacefully demonstrating against the march. They held placards about UVF attrocities and stood, for the most part quietly, to see what was going to happen. The most you got out of them was a couple of Rebublican chants and a cheerio chant when the UVF were being boarded back on to their buses.

If you don't consider that peaceful then I'd like to point out that the innocents of LoveUlster played a few Unionist songs and shouted back some anti-Irish bile at the protestors at times.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Thats not true at all, most people I've talked to in Limerick and Cork about it anyway didn't want to see the UVF marching down O'Connell St. They also didn't want to see the RSF tearing the streets apart but thats besides the point. I reckon a good 50% of people wouldn't want Unionists marching through Dublin, whilst about 25% would be undecided (i.e. don't care either way). Just a rough estimate on people from work, college, friends etc. that I've talked to about it.

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That's all very well, but how many in Dublin or elsewhere were arsed to protest? Not very many were that put out they felt the need to protest/ riot/ loot (delete as applicable). Of course people are going to say they don't want it now - but I'd say many would say because of the hassle the thick republicans* caused not because of the rally itself.

*They're thick because they were played like the lambeg they were trying to stop by the unionists. Really helped sell the republic as non-sectarian state there lads, really brought forward a United Ireland.

I've been reluctant to post on the topic because there seems to be little debate, as opposed to the usual rhethoric spouted from the Republicans. I wouldn't consider myself to be Republican or Nationalist, as I've not done enough research on the topic, but I certainly would sympathise with what happened to Northern Catholics during the troubles though. I think I typed what I meant to say.

Anyway my take on the whole sorry issue would be this. Republicans are all for a 32 county united Ireland. Fair enough. It is Ireland we're talking about. But for a 32 county state to appear , the Unionist/loyalist/Protestant community will have to be taken on. Their customs and ways of life will also have to assimilated into this "ideal" republican state. As seems to be the case in recent years, the Ulster Nationalists/Republicans seem to be willing to concede more group than the Ulster Protestants/Loyalists, and this march by an Ulster group, was a way of showing to the world, WE (Republicans) ARE THE BIGGER PEOPLE. This is as clear as day to me. It would have shown the world that these people and their beliefs can be integrated into our society, and we can interact. Because in a democratic, 32 county republic encompassing all creeds, colours and religions, this will have to happen.

But now as a result of what happened at the weekend, the yobs or Republicans or whoever that protested violently, and more to the point attacked their own kind, never mind the people they were opposed to, showed the city up as full of bigots.

I've seen loads of comments (not just on these boards) about "those fcukers shouldn't be walking past the GPO" or "Orange b@stards" and the like. My feelings toward the images in the papers and some of the frankly stupid posts on this forum is nothing short of rage.
Half of the cnuts (that supposedly are the next wave of republican youth) caught in the papers are the same fcukers who wouldn't think twice of having a p!ss on the side of the GPO, those abusing the marchers as "proddie b@stards" or whatever, how many of those would be in a position to question another persons faith or religion? Very few I would imagine.
The vast majority of people in this country are afraid to express their own opinion and just follow along like bloody lemmings when things like this surface. It was interesting to read in the papers that I read, the only people referencced to questioning the actions of the mob were the elderly.

Perhaps this was more of a rant, than a properly composed post, but when I see people claiming that 90% of the country didn't want to see the march, I had to post something. The vast majority in this country , in my opinion as I'm too humble to claim that I would represent the voice of 4 million odd people, are completely indifferent to whether or not an Ulster group attempt to march peacefully through a few streets of out capital. It's a pity the Republicans couldn't see it that way, because in a strange twist of fate, if there long-term goal comes to fruition (32 county Republic) this type if march could legally happen every week.

Ps I'm not a Unionist.

K.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

I wouldn't consider myself to be Republican or Nationalist, as I've not done enough research on the topic, but I certainly would sympathise with what happened to Northern Catholics during the troubles though. I think I typed what I meant to say.

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I think the vast majority of citizens of the republic are republicans

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Republican; a belief in a constitutional system without a hereditary element.

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Unfortunately the word has been hijacked by the few to mean something undesirable.

:(

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Originally Posted by pete

I think the vast majority of citizens of the republic are republicans



Unfortunately the word has been hijacked by the few to mean something undesirable.

:(

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I suppose I meant it in the "Traditional" sense of the words Pete. I don't go round saying Ticofaidh ar la or any of that muck, it may of happened during school alright (impressionable feller I was:D ), but I just don't go in for any of it.

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Originally Posted by pete

I think the vast majority of citizens of the republic are republicans



Unfortunately the word has been hijacked by the few to mean something undesirable.

:(

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Those who are republican in the sense in which the term is used in the context of Irish politics haven't hijacked the term. After all, what they want is precisely that the six counties of N.Ireland not be ruled by a country which has a longstanding system of the head of state being passed on by heredity.

If your problem with some of those in Ireland who consider themselves Republican is that they subscribe to the use of violence as a means to bring about a constitutional system of government with no heredity, then fair enough. But then your dispute is not with republicans per se, but only with violent ones; and it's not with the hijacking of a term, it's rather with the means pursued.

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Originally Posted by klein4

I have a degree in history and cant name them...

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You Should be ashamed to admit that

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Originally Posted by Macy

That's all very well, but how many in Dublin or elsewhere were arsed to protest? Not very many were that put out they felt the need to protest/ riot/ loot (delete as applicable).

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Well from the looks of what happened on saturday it was quite a sizeable crowd that felt the need to protest/ riot/ loot (delete as applicable). And you don't take into account people who had to work on saturday, or had other commiments, not to mention how expensive it is to get from Limerick/Cork/Galway/non-Leinster. And you also don't take into account the fact that certain people can be opposed to something without actually doing anything about it, its what we generally call being Irish*

* Just want to make sure thats not mis-quoted/taken out of context by saying that 'being Irish' as I put it is supposed to mean being put out, or being opposed to certain groups/laws/taxes/etc. but not being bothered to actually do anything other than complain about it.

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Originally Posted by jebus

And you also don't take into account the fact that certain people can be opposed to something without actually doing anything about it, its what we generally call being Irish.

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And of course there are loads of pole who were hugely gainst it but knew there'd be trouble at it so decided to stay away. And of course those who were against it but didn't want to be associated with RSF and the like...

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Originally Posted by Dodge

And of course there are loads of pole who were hugely gainst it but knew there'd be trouble at it so decided to stay away. And of course those who were against it but didn't want to be associated with RSF and the like...

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Exactly, I know a lot of people who were totally against it but didn't go up to Dublin for one reason or another, I only went up myself to take some photos for my college course, if I hadn't been doing this course I'd have gone to work as usual and read about it in the papers the next day, but I still would have been against it.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Really helped sell the republic as non-sectarian state there lads, really brought forward a United Ireland.

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Finding mysrelf agreeing with Macy is not siomething that happens ofter but here it is.:eek:

How did the rioting convince people from the Orange tradition that they would have nothing to fear from a united Ireland, how did it do anything to convince them that their traditions, however much we disagree with them, would be respected.

People seem not to realise that many things go into the make up of the history and traditions of a country, some you like some you don't. In any future united Ireland the Orange tradition will have to be recgonised as much as the green one.

However, come the day a united Ireland happens eventually happens I fear that there will be a major rush to expunge signs of Britain's influence in Ireland that the real difference that it should make, irradicating poverty and creating a better society for all regardless of background will be lost. 'If all we do is to change the colour of the postboxes from red to green, then we the influence of imperialism and capitalism will remain' to paraphrase the great James Connolly.

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Originally Posted by klein4

All your information is second hand. Ireland has changed a lot in the last few years. You cant beat first hand knowledge of a situation. People who were in Dublin and saw what went on have more right to comment than British people living in London pontificating on something they saw on the telly.

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Oooo, I have a British address but was in Ireland at the time of the rioting, so do I have the right to comment or maybe as I was in Ireland but have the British address maybe I can go halfway and ask a question.

Anyways I look forward to hearing your views on any subject beyond the national boundry which will obviously be as half baked as these type of comments.

just take the post for what it is and in context and dont be tryin to infer your own meaning on it. :)

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Originally Posted by jebus

Exactly, I know a lot of people who were totally against it but didn't go up to Dublin for one reason or another, I only went up myself to take some photos for my college course, if I hadn't been doing this course I'd have gone to work as usual and read about it in the papers the next day, but I still would have been against it.

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I'll bow to your and dodge's superior knowledge of what the silent majority think - It's all the proof I need anyway. :rolleyes:

i couldnt sit and read all of the pages but basically I was sad to see the violance in Dublin. As much as I hate the Orange Order / White supremacist / Love Ulster I didnt want to see the parade not go ahead.

Last Saturday's parade in Dublin was not an Orange,UVF,UDA parade as is often mentioned on these pages.
It was organised by a coalition of victims' groups in Northern Ireland, led by F.A.I.R.
It was to highlight their suffering caused by 40 years of terrorist brutality.

That hate filled and intolerant minority that caused Saturdays trouble needs to be exposed for the thugs thay are.
They are the tail (of this State) wagging the dog (the State).How do you they define what being "Irish" is ?
For some it's perhaps exclusively being (into the G.A.A.,Gaelic speaking,cheili music,Wolfe tone's rebel music,R.C.,anti-British,anti-Protestant,fond of the black stuff etc.,etc.).
So much for cherishing all the people of Ireland equally.
Damien Kiberd's Newstalk 106 FM mocking people of the Protestant and unionist tradition on the morning of the Parade and recent comments from the President & Fr. Reid comparing unionists to Nazis didn't help either.
The inclusive harmony between the orange and green traditions as represented by the Republic's national flag appears to be a long way off.

The majority of people in Northern Ireland have a different (view/brand) of Irishness also.
They view themselves as Irish as well as British .
Is it any different for someone in the U.S. being proud to identify themselves as Irish/American ?

Last year threats and intimidation in Cork stopped an invited Orange Lodge partaking in the St.Patrick's day parade.
The Order was founded in Ireland and still operates in Ireland.
Whether it's liked or not ,it's still part of Ireland's history and culture.

Looking to the future and hopefully not straying too far off the topic.
Not a huge fan,however I admire what the four band members of U2 have done for Ireland's positive image across the World.
A band made up of different faith's and backgrounds who have come together in respect,tolerance and accomodation for each other.

Here's to the future of a more tolerant,open Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Macy

I'll bow to your and dodge's superior knowledge of what the silent majority think - It's all the proof I need anyway. :rolleyes:

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Nowhere did I speak about the majority Macy. I'm just going on what people I know have said and general chit chat. Im not saying it was a majorty of people but to say it was only those who protested is wrong

but motorcylcle man, if FAIR is such a peaceloving and innocent group with no paramiltary or orange connections, why the orange/apprentice boys bands and the placard to the man suspected of the dubln and monaghan bombings (the biggest atrocity of the troubles) as a victim of ira murder?

the violence was appaling, but dont play the innocent protestant card. the march set out to provoke. the scale of the reaction is whats interesting.

if this was simply loyalist victims of the ira laying a wreath, having a prayer service etc. do you think dublin would have erupted?

In response to Motorcycle man, if they wanted to march in the memory of victims, why not march in the memory of ALL victims who died at the hands of ALL groupings (Republican/Loyalist/Police/Army) ? What was their rational in concentrating solely on Protestant victims of IRA violence? And having an Orange Band in attendance? The answer is because that wouldn't have provoked the reaction they wanted (and got last Saturday). I don't agree with, in any shape or form, the violence that took part...but the sole purpose of this march was to cause a reaction and harden the attitude of the average Protestant in the 6 counties. The strategy worked a treat - rod out, bait set and RSF took it hook line and sinker.

If the march had been let go, and everyone just ignored it point blank...it would have sent a much more powerful image out, than having a load of scumbags wreck their own city.

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Originally Posted by dancinpants

What was their rational in concentrating solely on Protestant victims of IRA violence? And having an Orange Band in attendance? The answer is because that wouldn't have provoked the reaction they wanted (and got last Saturday). I don't agree with, in any shape or form, the violence that took part...but the sole purpose of this march was to cause a reaction and harden the attitude of the average Protestant in the 6 counties.

If the march had been let go, and everyone just ignored it point blank...it would have sent a much more powerful image out, than having a load of scumbags wreck their own city.

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Dubliners are a peaceful, tolerant lot. There are many different types of protests on the streets of our city every year, whether it be about abortion issues, culchie farmers taking their issues to Leinster House, teachers/nurses on strike, Sinn Fein rallies, anti-American/globalisation demos, etc, etc. However these are protests from Irish people who live in our country, pay taxes to the government, and intend to protest peacefully.

However, when marches are from British people who hate our country, our customs, our values, our people, our political policies, burn our flag, throw blastbombs at Irish children going to school, attempt to oppress Irish people as much as possible, and set out to provoke violence, the very principle of a Loyalist/Orange Order march in Dublin city centre crossed the borderline for many Dubliners, and Irish people in general.

As regards reports that only disadvantaged youths were responsible for the violence that followed, is that the case in Belfast and Derry every summer? Maybe, but it's also anger from nationalists that Loyalists just can't restrict their marches to their own people, they wish to rub Nationalists noses in the dirt too. The same culchies who criticised the disorder in Dublin, would react the same if such a march was allowed in their town. The reaction to the march in Dublin, would be the same anywhere else in the Republic of Ireland.

The cost of the riots in terms of lost business, the policing bill, Dublin's image abroad, is far greater than some authorities' ghastly decision to consider that a British march could pass off peacefully in our capital city. The message from Irish people in O'Connell Street last week was loud and clear. Marchers representing the United Kingdom are not welcome in the Republic of Ireland. Stay at home. If they didn't know that before, they should know it now.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Marchers representing the United Kingdom are not welcome in the Republic of Ireland. Stay at home. If they didn't know that before, they should know it now.

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And that doesn't say anything about or tarnish our image abroad?

They're Unionists. Get it, UNIONists? They want to maintain the union with Britain. To them, we're a foreign people with a foreign government. So seeing as they're so precious about being British, if they want to lodge a protest to the Irish government, let them do it at the Irish embassy in London.

Down the road though, it's a timebomb waiting to go off in our midst. If and when there's a 32-county Ireland, we'll have a nice little ethnic minority of our own to get stroppy. That'll be an interesting illustration of the poverty of nationalism - how are we gonna deal with that?

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Originally Posted by mypost

The message from Irish people in O'Connell Street last week was loud and clear. Marchers representing the United Kingdom are not welcome in the Republic of Ireland. Stay at home.

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Let me rephrase that. The message from a bunch of idiots last Saturday was loud and clear. And it's time it was muffled for good.

To the second part: We are highly tolerant and welcoming nation, as long as you don't upset some idiots.

Also the "authorities ghastly decision" to allow the march, however much you disagree with it, means that decision should be final. You can try and lay as much blame at 'the authorities' as you like, it still doesn't get away from what a brigade of lunatics got up to last week. That's where the problem lies and for the fear of repeating myself, that's where things have to change, not among 'the authorities'.

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Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub

They're Unionists. Get it, UNIONists? They want to maintain the union with Britain. To them, we're a foreign people with a foreign government. So seeing as they're so precious about being British, if they want to lodge a protest to the Irish government, let them do it at the Irish embassy in London.

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Hit the rock on the ground there!!

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Originally Posted by dfx

it still doesn't get away from what a brigade of lunatics got up to last week. That's where the problem lies

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The reaction would be the same in Cork, Limerick, Galway, or anywhere else in Ireland. Are they all lunatics, or making a point? I think the latter. That's what happens when governments do what they like, instead of listening to the voice of the overwhelming majority of people they claim to represent.

Predictably, McDowell refuses to accept responsibility for it, and still hasn't resigned from the cabinet. :rolleyes: