Everything that's been said about Ogbene is true, but I think it's worth noting that he looked much more of a threat when he came over to the left for a brief cameo.
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Everything that's been said about Ogbene is true, but I think it's worth noting that he looked much more of a threat when he came over to the left for a brief cameo.
can't agree with the ogbene hate. he gave away that stupid free kick but otherwise i thought the Hungarians looked terrified of his pace which thankfully he still has.
their whole back line sat in even deeper after he came on and it was just a siege from then on.
he won a few duels in the box but nothing came of any of them - something to work on there.
A small thing, but relevant to situational awarness imo, Idah running un to the corner to celebrate after the equaliser when you want to chase a winner with a handfull of minutes left. Grab the ball, back on the centre circle and ready to go again straight away. Senior players did pull him to get back but it could have run the clock down a fair bit when looking for a win late on. Maybe its nitpicking but I think there is a little bit lacking in concentration, awareness around game management, and even heading to celebrate when really you just want to get on with things when the opposition is just hanging on. As fo only playing when we go behind and there is nothing to lose o have to go for it, its like the pressure still is worn heavy. I really though VAR was there to stop things like jerseys being pulled over players heads i the box by defenders, I dont think that incident with Collins was 6 of 1, he tried to play and get on the cross with the jersey almost pulled off him. 8 subs(?) and a whole lot of stoppages and time wasting seemed longer than 6 minutes but maybe that was just my frustration.
i think he (Idah) just really likes scoring goals. it's his thing. he reminds me a bit of andy cole.
I think his drifting in to the back post and being a nuisance in the air created that bit of space for a few chances that could have ping in off someone on another evening, made him a decent change at the time. There were a few silly fouls, O'Brien putting a hand on the back of the defender at left full when he was struggling to not concede a corner was basic stuff from an experienced player.Quote:
Originally Posted by zero
I asked it earlier, and I was serious.. where were the ball boys?
Were there any there tonight.. Hungary were allowed waste loads of time just getting balls back
Overall.. we're decent.. just decent. Don't think Hungary are much better than us, if any way at all.
Id love it too but Id want to have a pop at another too. Its a bit 'all about me' rather than getting back at it fo the team. Ok maybe he feels he has something to prove after not being rated at Celtic but still.Quote:
Originally Posted by zero
Steady on nowQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Was talking about that in the ground - there weren't any. Very strange; no idea why that wasQuote:
Originally Posted by Insidetherock
Retro Irish hectic football with ball after ball being pumped into the box , trying to get something out of the chaos, managed it in the end with Idah of all players moving into a wide space and getting an expertly driven header on the ball.
No Heimar Icelandic team ever played like that so I guess he must have gone native. I thought he was slow to throw the kitchen sink against this Hungarian team, an ugly sister of Bulgaria, the subs should have come on much earlier. Should it come to a showdown in Budapest for 2nd place, as it stands now I'd be okay with that.
Ha! I'm allowed after that I thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by brine3
But genuinely - what else have we?
As bad a first half as I've ever witnessed from an Ireland team, and as positive a second half as I've ever seen.
Real Jekyll and Hyde stuff.
Doherty at fault for both goals really.
Red was fully deserved from where I was in the ground, but haven't seen replays.
We probably deserved a winner out of that. But on the balance of 45 minutes vs 45 minutes a draw was fair.
Heimir has to take a degree of credit for the turnaround after the half, but he got the first half so so wrong.
Really have to hope we can get two wins out of Armenia and hope that Hungary take nothing from Portugal, but we have an uphill battle from here realistically, and you could sense that feeling from the players at full time too.
Another thing that ragged me was the amount of Hungarian fans in among the home support. Small fry really, but it was a bit annoying.
Thought azaz played well, as did Kelleher and Manning (to an extent). Don't know what smodzic brings,and Doherty is a farce at this stage.
Still in it but need 6 points against armenia to have even the remotest chance.
Away in Paris in 2009.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Getting a point off of the world champions in Germany and beating them at home.
The match in Cardiff with the James McClean goal.
The Bosnia playoff.
The first 45 against Sweden at the Euros.
The first 45 against France at the Euros.
The away performance against Austria in the 2018 qualifiers.
And then nothing for the last seven years.
And then today.
I would even argue that in most of those examples better football was played than the exciting chaos we saw in the second half today.
Thought Azaz was ****e. Especially when under pressure in attacking areas. Csn see why PL teams stayed well clearQuote:
Originally Posted by placid casual
Thought oshea and Collins were poor defensively and did there usual not getting headers in target in opposition box. Doherty was his usual nonsense self for Ireland.
Reality is Hungarian keeper made 1 save from azaz header. Thought we were a shambles and even down to 10 men they cut through us a few times
Quote:
Originally Posted by placid casual
I agree with this,and I was well ****ed off with it - players running to celebrate equaliser when there was still time to win . But that weak pisa poor mindset is all through this teamQuote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Hungary get a player sent off so our players need to do nothing but what happens? Cullen and others start getting all excited and involved and he gets a yellow...what was the ****ing point in that.
3 or four times in 1st half our players when they can't win headers just lazily jump into back of player and give away free kick - giving them an easy out
I kind of feel like we might be almost back to where we were around 2019. That is, sticking in there long enough that we can stay involved in a group until the last game and then not qualify from it.
It's depressing that that counts as progress, but the reality is that it is. Only if we win in Armenia of course.
On a separate note I watched Scotland last night. Now, granted they have a much better midfield than us, but the core of their defence was three players who wouldn't even make our 23 man squad - Angus Gunn, John Souttar and Grant Hanley. And they held the Danes to a 0-0 in Copenhagen. Basically just throwing limbs at the ball Shane Duffy style to keep it out.
I don't know how we get back to a position where we have that level of defensive fight in us. On paper we have better players at centre back, but they're not showing it. They're playing like we used to, and we're playing like they used to before Steve Clarke took them over and got them into shape. They probably won't make the World Cup, but they're closer to where they want to be than we are right now.
That's not accurate really, he also saved a shot from Ferguson and he saved Manning's free kick that was going in the bottom corner. O'Shea had a great chance for a header late on that he should have scored.Quote:
Originally Posted by kennedmc
That manning free kick was going well wide. Fair enough re Ferguson although save was very standard - EVAN did well to create chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckett
We didn't work their keeper anyway enough and he looked poor - e.g manning 1st free kick for Evans goal he made complete balls off
I actually think someone like Mike Maignan might have saved that Idah header, the Hungarian keeper wasn't far off it and, as others are correctly pointing out, he was crap.
Just so there's no illusions for those at the game, there was no question about the red card. I agree HH took too long to take advantage and Cullen deserved a slap for getting that yellow.
We did get a few yellows tonight so the team needs to be tactical and maybe control the suspensions. Probably we're better off missing players for Armenia at home?
Anyway, whatever else, there's some hope. I'd forgotten what it was like to have a qualification campaign to look forward to and unless Hungary somehow beat Portugal it's more than likely going to be down to Budapest
Make no mistake, this was yet another disaster in a seemingly endless series of years - no decades, of disasters. I’m sick of it.Sick of all the stupid pre-campaign talk of “good vibes in the camp” and empty promises of qualifying for this and that. We were given a golden opportunity, a favourable draw with our players fresh and seemingly on the up and up. A must-win game to get this sprint off to a good start. And what happens? Well, what always happens with our “must-win” games - we don’t win. Instead we throw it all away before it even gets off the ground. Individual performances that were shocking. Doherty was virtually a twelfth player for Hungary. The entire back four were dreadful. Azaz and Szmodics anonymous spectators to the unwinding of a campaign which had barely started. We’re not qualifying for this, or any other World Cup, the prospect of doing so is too outrageous, too fearful a concept for an Irish team to allow it to occur. We played most of the second half against ten men and all we could think to do was to swing it in to the back post time and time again. Idah celebrated the equalising goal like we’d won the World Cup, he had no notion of how important it was to actually win the game.Despite the numerical advantage our keeper winds up man of the match and now we listen to the plaintive pleas that “at least we’re still in it”. We’re not in anything except an attempt to avoid being bottom of the group.This team is not going to miraculously change into being anything other than what they are.
Surprised with how negative the general tone is on here after we saved our campaign in the 90th minute.
Couldn't disagree more on the Ogbene hate either. I was calling for him to be given the ball every single he was on the pitch. If we go anywhere near the WC he's going to be central to it. The pace and strength he has makes him a completely different threat to any other Irish player.
The comments here saying we were done and dusted at half time were spot on. We'd no right to get a result this evening at half time and the team pulled it out of the bag. The sending off completely changed the game obviously but the momentum had just swung at that stage anyway. We got the first against 11 and put them under serious pressure the rest of the game and it eventually told.
The reality is we aren't a great team, all of us should know that. That second half was good though. We maybe lumped the ball into the box from bad areas at times but generally it was the right way to approach the game. We won a ton of first balls in the box and I'm surprised we hadn't got a lucky bounce much earlier in the second half to equilise.
I am less positive about our chances of coming second than I was at the start of the day but I am just so ****ing relieved that the next few days of build up to the Armenia game in the media isn't going to be about the what ifs.
I might be in the minority but I'm pretty happy after that.
Kelleher wasn't man of the match. I know he was called out as it but that was ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzer
Thought Manning was decent and whoscored gives him the best rating by a distance.
I think there's a place for a bit of a reality check but that post is too far. Yes, we were awful first half and it's easy to forget that given how the game ended - Hungary took the foot off the pedal with an eye on Tuesday I feel and they shouldn't.
But equally there needs to be credit given for the second half. I couldn't give a ****e that we got back into it with Jack Charlton football. It was bloody effective.
We don't have a good squad. A draw in that manner can absolutely have positives, even if we'd like to have won
(As an aside btw - just seeing the replays of the red card and I do think we got a break there. Definite yellow but a soft red for me)
It was a high tackle from behind with what looked like malicious intent. Straight red every day of the week.
Agree as well about the negative tones. I made the mistake of reading the comments on the 42 app and dear god people are horrible about this team. I know a lot of it comes from passion but we are 60th in the world rankings and although that might be harsh, we need to be serious about where we are.
We have a trio of players that have the potential to go all the way in Kelleher, Collins and Ferguson but it's still only potential. There's a lot to be positive about and we have 5 games to enjoy now where we can have some belief. Even with our best teams historically it was always scraping through playoffs. We have a chance, that's more than we've had in four fecking years :)
It was a definite red, it was an attempt at a malicious hack with no intent to get the ball.
The morning after the night before and I still don't know whether it was a point gained or two dropped. I suppose if we win in Armenia we'll be in a much better position after two group games than we have been for a long time. And it would more or less guarantee that we stay alive to the final weekend of the group, which would be progress in itself.
But things still don't look right. Hallgrimsson and McCarthy spoke an awful lot of bull**** in the lead up to the game. Was it a psychological thing, almost trying to convince everyone, including the players themselves, that they weren't as mentally weak as they have looked over the last few years? I can't really see any other logic behind it. If it was it didn't work anyway.
Is the solution for Armenia as simple as dropping Doherty? I feel like, if we just have two centre mids again, we're at risk of messing up in Yerevan, bad and all as Armenia are. I'd like to see us put an extra body in there to try and dominate the middle, but they just don't seem interested in trying it.
Something like
Kelleher
O'Brien Collins O'Shea Manning
Cullen Taylor
Johnston Azaz Knight
Ferguson
with Knight tucking in as a third centre mid when we're out of possession, and also making space for Manning to push forward onto the left wing when the opportunity arises.
But I think he'll go for a more conventional 4-2-3-1 and pick two wingers.
Feeling relieved this morning and clinging on to dreams of a World Cup, I hope you are all good gang. Having slept on it, I am still not sure how to feel about that, were we even good? Do I care? Felt like points dropped after the match, but I'm also just glad we didn't loose. Not 100% we're getting 6 points v Armenia, so let's hope we survive the next match, it's going to be a long tiring trip and a short turnaround, something we have really struggled with.
They did. There was an awful amount of, its only good times ahead, from them, during the lead up & HH again looked like a man who'd unexpectedly ended up on a Texas rodeo bull but survived it, in the post match, so I don't think it was a ploy, I think they believed it but it was definitely overdone considering we've done nothing good for almost a decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
I do think this group of players have a tendency to go out & initially do none of the things worked on which is perplexing him. He mentioned it being a psychological problem & as we know, the FAI can't afford a sports psychologist & that was him saying they could probably do with one. He deliberately said that, last night you'd have to suspect & privately he's more scathing about it & the financial farce his employers are.
I didn't read this match thread from kick off until after the game & it was like the five stages of grief on here, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and finally acceptance only to then be told the person wasn't dead, not yet, not fully anyhow.
So was it a point gained Lazarus moment or two dropped ? Well we don't know. We do know, if we can stay in this, with an eye on the last game, we can rattle Hungary, at least. But what this group of players produce between now & then is anyones guess.
Never seen a game like it.
In the scheme of football financing what would a good Phycologist cost, one players weeks wages? Time for Matt Doherty to give back ;)
Is it possible that expecting to win meant that the plan was to slow the game down and have no ballboys? It was an old trick by O'Connor at Dundalk that if we went 1 up the ballboys were called in. Last night we ended up needing multiball to keep the tempo up second half and Hungary constantly having to be switched on. Instead the were able to reset everytime the ball went out of play. They even switched the ball a couple of times when the ball went dead, refused the ball that was quickly given to them at throw ins. Super annoying but exactly waht Id want from my said if in front. Its a wider debate but the 4th official being the timekeeper was supposed to eliminate this messing and increase the ball in play time with time added on.We've all seen games go beyond the 100min mark and Id love to look back at the ball dead time though couldnt be bothered, as 6mins added seemed chort changed. My prediction for the final game, we are one ahead, playoff on the line and 12 minutes gets added for the same sort of game management and we concede.....Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Looking at it from 7:45pm you would probably say 2 points dropped, looking at it from about 8pm you'd say a point earnedQuote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Honohan in for the injured Szmodics for Armenia. Obviously not a like for like replacement, so looks like a deliberate pick to increase our left back options, or in other words Doherty is no longer seen as a viable option in the position I'd say. But clearly he's not an O'Dowda fan and no route back for McClean (or possibly he doesn't want one himself).
Probably Manning to start at left back now, with Honohan in reserve if he wants to push Manning forward during the game.
How about from 9pm, when we were a goal down, a man up and still had half an hour to play?!:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Neish
Is it a psychological thing? It definitely is. We stay in our comfort zone, namely passing sideways and backwards in front of Kelleher. To adventure forward while retaining possession is too risky so let's not try that approach. Let's bury our heads in the sand and stay in our comfort zone and hopefully we'll get a chance or two late on to win the game via a corner or free kick. That may not be the stated goal of this Irish team but it is the mental one, or quite close to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Contrast that with Portugal yesterday. For starters we are not Portugal and we do not have a Ronaldo or even Joao Felix. But, like them we do have 11 players on the pitch and unlike them they all work for one another. Case in point, Ronaldo's stunner from distance yesterday. That came about because when Portugal lost the ball everyone in a white shirt busted a gut to close down space and win back possession. The result- a goal for Portugal. And the visitors were 3 - 0 up at the time. That is the approach of the European champions to the game. Ours....we'll if we do go 1 - 0 up early in Yerevan on Tuesday Im pretty sure you'll see the shutters pulled down immediately.
That is our mentality- so yes it is all psychological.
Remember hearing Gianluca Vialli say “you don’t win or lose, you win or learn”. Hopefully HH has learnt, a lot like Amorim needs to, you fit the system to the players, not the players to the system!
Needs to ditch the turgid, antiquated 4-4-2 / four at the back formation immediately and play 3-5-2. We’re overloaded with good centre-halves, have no natural fullbacks (Doherty has been playing on the right of a central three for the last year, as his legs have gone), have two decent enough wingbacks in Manning & Ogbene, a diminutive midfield which needs to bolstered, a creative midfielder in Azaz who should be playing central and two battering ram forwards in Ferguson & Idah who’s physicality will scare defenders.
Sick of hearing about what worked for Iceland. We have a different psyche. Be it football, rugby or boxing we operate at our optimum with high intensity, put em under pressure tempo working as the underdog. If HH doesn’t cop on to that simple fact soon, we’d be better place getting someone like Keane & Duff in, who at least appreciate the pride of playing for their country to instill some passion, rather than overthink and overcomplicate it like we’re doing presently.
I don't know where some of the criticism for players is coming from in some posts here -
My assessment -
I thought Jake O'Brien was outstanding - even in a RB position - he delivered so many dangerous balls into the box last night than on another day could have resulted in several goals.
I thought Ferguson was very good - scoring and he had a major assist in Idah's goal, dragging two defenders with his run to the near post, giving Idah a free header.
I thought Azaz played well - but needed to be playing right behind Ferguson to maximise his input and deliver balls that Ferguson could thrive on.
Manning should have been playing LB instead of Doherty (never liked him there as he cannot use his left foot) with Johnson ahead of him.
We have CBs and I agree with those who suggest putting Collins in midfield instead of Cullen - he has better vision and passing ability without losing anything on the defensive side.
Ogbene is not the best crosser of a ball but his pace is a nightmare for defenders and makes them panic.
I felt the team selection was unbalanced last night and it impacted alot in the first half.
For those who talk about 'Charlton-ball' - two things - against the modern high press you cannot pass the ball out from the back unless you have highly technical defenders - and we don't - otherwise you will get caught in possession. There was no 'Charlton-ball' last night (Charlton used a very specific tactial approach) - what happened in the second half was a more direct approach with an emphasis on getting the ball into the box - particlarly after the sending off when Hungary defended deep. I would persist with this because it suits our players better and will lead to results.
One thing I certainly wouldn't accuse HH of is trying to over complicate things.
It seems like he's a fairly straight forward message to both the players and fans of what he wants the team to be.
I personally would put the slow start down on the players for individual errors. It wasn't as if the shape of the team was consistently ripped apart (although I'll accept it's easier to defend when you are 2 goals down)