Out of interest, what would you have liked to see from this 3rd tier starting out ?Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
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Out of interest, what would you have liked to see from this 3rd tier starting out ?Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
Three different levels of partner clubs at Rovers but lots of schoolboys clubs affiliated in one way or another - Crumlin United, Templogue United, Corduff and Lucan United are the main partners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Kilnamanagh, Firhouse Carmel, Jobstown Celtic, Sacred Heart, Athy Town, Ballyoulster United, Cambridge, Granada, Kilcullen, Lakelands, Leicester Celtic, Leixlip United, Newlands/Castle Park and Sallins Celtic are affiliated in one way or another.
https://www.shamrockrovers.ie/rovers-in-clubs/
Who are the rumours ? Dying to know... Didn't hear anything myselfQuote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
A good spot Culloty! I sourced the exact article below; it suggests that there was interest from a club in Offaly. Tullamore perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by culloty82
https://www.shannonside.ie/sport/no-...-league-259613
I don't think the lack of an application/club from Roscommon is either a surprise or a big deal. The north of the county has always contained a decent supoort for Sligo Rovers. The south of the county has Athlone Town right on its doorstep - with a growing part of the town actually in Roscommon. And the middle of the county is close to Longford Town (Strokestown 20km, Roscommon Town about 25km). So the county is suprisingly well-served already by existing LOI clubs anyway.
On top of that Roscommon is very rural, with no large towns. Someone mentioned Castlerea Celtic - in a town with a population of only 2,000 people. Roscommon Town is the biggest, and it's about the size of Ballybofey/Stranorlar. It's also primariyl a GAA county, and always has been.
So I'm not at all surprised if it's had no applications, and see no issue in that either.
Briefly, you see to be a big fan of the Irish League pyramid. Are a lot of small clubs competing against each other helping for a vibrant professional league with big crowds?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
All very true. Once you go down through Roscommon town (6.5k), Boyle, Castlerea and Ballaghaderreen (2k-ish), every other town in the county is really no more than a large village. For a county its size and population it somehow manages to compete in all three GAA codes: around 30 clubs with hurling strong in the southern part of the county, and nine handball clubs, three only 15 minutes from where I grew up. Round that neck of the woods, there'd never be talk of LoI or rugby. Even cross-channel football tends to take a back seat, apart from the usuals like Man Utd, Liverpool, Celtic.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
I do think 67 clubs applied or have shown interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckett
You could pick over 20+ clubs from the LSL Premier & Second Divisions and another 10+ well established Junior clubs from the Dublin area alone who are showing interest, approximately 30.
Then there are more top Junior clubs from Wexford & Kildare, along with many County district leagues showing interest, Meath DL, Carlow DL, Kildare DL & Kilkenny DL, approximately 10.
I reckon all the clubs in the MSL Premier Division have applied while several more from the Second Division can be added, approximately 15+.
Additional established Junior clubs from Limerick, Waterford, Kerry & Clare, approximately 10.
The Mayo DL and several Galway, Donegal & Monaghan/Cavan clubs have shown their interest, approximately 10.
There are also several Universities, such as UCD, UCC & Dublin University showing interest.
So you can see how a figure of 67 and more can be created.
This entire post is just based on assumptions and guesses. The vast majority of teams you mentioned have not officially confirmed that they’ve applied. Also, UCD interested? They have a League of Ireland team already and it’s been confirmed that shamrock rovers were the only LOI club to have applied to enter a B team into the third tierQuote:
Originally Posted by nr637
Does anyone know what the application process involved ?
If it was merely expressions of interest till more info is unveiled, then 67 is very plausible.
There was no application process. Its basically an email sent to the FAI expressing interest.
Just like a lot of entire posts on here are just based on assumptions and guesses. The post was just a look at where 67 areas of interest could come from. We all know there are some real progressive and established non-clubs around the country who would be interested in using this new structure to further their ambitions. The fact that it is based on assumptions and guesses is not relevant. You seem to be very negative towards the idea. I think the third tier option is a great opportunity. As for UCD, they may be exploring the idea just like several other institutions, such as Dublin University & UCC, so we will have to wait and see.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 Year Contract
The best thing about this option, is that it has created another reason to consider and keep soccer in Ireland as a further topic of conversation.
Absolutely!Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
ROI has x2.5 the population of NI, and a wealthier one at that (i.e. more disposable income). Yet we somehow manage to sustain 24 Senior clubs, 4 or 5 f-t of them professional, with the rest p-t, and that without Derry City, from our second city. Over the last 3 or 4 decades the IL has spread from its heartlands in Belfast/Antrim and Mid-Ulster to all parts of NI, incl Fermanagh (Ballinamallard U), and Tyrone (Dungannon S), and further into otherwise outlying areas such as South Down (Warrenpoint T) and Derry again (Institute).
All this against the background of 30 years of horrendous civil strife, and having still to cope with the sectarian legacy that left.
Meanwhile, crowds have almost exactly mirrored those of the LOI in terms of increases over the last few years, and in relative terms, match them too. For example, this season we are averaging just under 1,600 per game in the Premiership. Multiplied by 2.5 this would work out at c.4k, which is, I think, what the LOI PD is achieving? Indeed drop the two bottom teams, Carrick and Loughgall (also the two lowest attendances) and our average for 10 clubs is 1,768, which multiplied by 2.5 equals just under 4.5k.
Similarly, to mirror your splendid Bohs v Shams season opener (35K?), Glens are playing Cliftonville in the final of the League Cup at Windsor in a couple of weeks and with good promotion, fair ticket prices and a Sunday afternoon slot, the match is already a 15k sell-out.
Now don't get me wrong, we still have many problems to sort out, and are behind the LOI in a number of ways. But to even get as far as we have, the pyramid has been vital, esp for anyone old enough like me (just about!) who remembers what things were like with the old IL/'B' Division/Reserves League, all with the same, tired old teams, moribund and lacking any energy or vitality.
In particular, the pyramid offers an opportunity for ambitious clubs, esp those who manage to attract a benefactor who puts money into the club. For example, Ballinamallard were only founded in 1975, in a village of fewer than 2k, in a county which had never before hosted Senior football. They were playing in the Fermanagh & Western League (Junior, amateur). But they had a wealthy local businessman who put money into infrastructure (their ground and facilities are better than a few LOI FD clubs), plus a band of local volunteers who harnessed the village's community spirit, soon working their way right up through Intermediate football to Senior level, where they're now established in the 2nd tier, having had quite a few seasons in the top tier. Ditto Loughgall (founded 1967, pop. 300) and Warrenpoint (1987, pop.9k). And at the other end of the scale, we see what Kenny Bruce has done for Larne, after decades of never going anywhere, even enduring a recent spell outside Senior level before "crowds" of two men and a dog. None of all that could ever have happened without the pyramid.
Plus there is a further advantage. Despite everything else, the IL has never suffered anything like the numbers of clubs going into examinership, or even folding entirely, that we've seen in the LOI, eg Derry City. Twice!
That primarily is because of a lack of Moral Hazard. That is, LOI clubs know that if they should go bust, usually after spending money they don't have to keep up with the rest, the FAI will find a way of keeping them in the league. Further, there is no lower level to sustain them should they need to regroup. For example, Bangor FC got into financial difficulties around 2016 which threatened their very existence. But rather than pushing it, they voluntarily dropped out of the IL, though only after fulfilling all their league fixtures for the season. This being the first time outside Senior football since being founded in 1918, they managed to survive at Intermediate level and work their way back up to the Championship, were this season they look certs to get promoted back to the Premiership. At the same time as this, they're finally getting round to upgrading their stadium, which has been (embarrassingly) decrepit for a long time.
But having said all that, and before anyone thinks I'm coming over all Polyanna, I repeat, we are behind the LOI in a number of respects, with many other problems still to overcome. However without a tolerably functioning pyramid, I shudder to think where we'd be.
Cymru League anyone? :)
What would UCD be exploring?Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
We're in the second tier and Rovers are (apparently) the only side to enter a B team. What's left?
I can see how there'd be 67, but I'd imagine some applications were written in crayon and won't take long to whittle down.
I'd be interested to see where you got the idea that I'm negative to the idea of the third tier, quite the opposite really, I’m happy to see what I hope is just a starting point in fully joining the various league structures.Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
Yes posts in this thread have speculated on potential clubs to join, but since it’s been revealed that 67 clubs have applied, you continue to post speculation as fact. Examples of this are below:
Who are these 30 clubs that have officially confirmed that they’re interested in joining the third tier please (proof of this please where possible)Quote:
You could pick over 20+ clubs from the LSL Premier & Second Divisions and another 10+ well established Junior clubs from the Dublin area alone who are showing interest, approximately 30.
Again, what 10 clubs in these leagues have officially confirmed their interest in joining the league or are you just stating your assumption as fact?Quote:
Then there are more top Junior clubs from Wexford & Kildare, along with many County district leagues showing interest, Meath DL, Carlow DL, Kildare DL & Kilkenny DL, approximately 10.
Which 10 clubs are those that have officially shown interest?Quote:
The Mayo DL and several Galway, Donegal & Monaghan/Cavan clubs have shown their interest, approximately 10.
Any links for public confirmation from any of these universities or is this also assumption that has been stated as fact? Apart from the fact that as has been mentioned, Dan McDonnell has stated rovers are the only LOI club to want a reserve side in the third tier so you can rule UCD out unless of course you want to wait and see as you said.Quote:
There are also several Universities, such as UCD, UCC & Dublin University showing interest.
Never heard myself but if I was to guess I'd say Ardee Celtic may be one. Can't see any of the clubs around Dundalk touching it, none of them even play LSL in years since Quay Celtic did maybe 20 years agoQuote:
Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa
Drogheda Town have made informal enquiries about use of the Lourdes Stadium read in to that what you will, there is enough emnity still with some with their local senior club to spite and think they could do better - bad timing though. There is still a surprise with some more ambitious higher education soccer people, though it could well be a way to annoy the GAA dominated sports department, or kite flying on the development of a scholarship programme within existing academic programmes. Ardee cant get on the same hymn sheet, dont want to miss out dont want to over commit -i dont see any harm in any names submitted and can then pull or stick in due course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 Year Contract
As I have stated on previous posts I know I am basing my information on speculation for fact through various social media claims. I have not really claimed that clubs have confirmed their intentions from any of the various leagues, I have just tried to show the potential that exist for that figure of 67 to be possible. From my perspective I feel as if you have a negative view for the basis of this input.
Hope you can accept my view, if not we will just have to agree to disagree m8 and move on. :confused:
Let's hope we see an official list of clubs soon as we are all anxious to know.
How many full time professional clubs are realistically attainable?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
You're clearly supportive of the pyramid structure. While there are advantages, can it hinder there being more full time professional clubs with a bigger support base?
Fair enough, it may have been Dublin University so, that I read somewhere were showing interest according to some social media sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
He doesn't. He does have a negative view for pure speculation such as "There are also several Universities, such as UCD [...] showing interest". Doubly so when the complete and utter refutation of this is ignored. It's not helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
I am not ignoring that a lot of my post is based on speculation, but it seems to be a bit unfair of you now to be critical. It is just a conversation on where the interest in the new third tier National League could come from!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Not really? Criticism is fundamental to conversation and learning I'd have thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
Otherwise everyone just accepts things at face value, and that's no good to anyone.
Only photo I can see of Lourdes Stadium is a pitch, track and nothing else? I assume there's a stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
In the short-, even medium-term, not many more than at present (one or two extra, maybe?).Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
But over the long term, and esp if we can improve and enlarge stadia, then I think there is opportunity to get to maybe 7 or 8, with the rest still operating on a p-t basis, but on a bigger scale than at present.
While on the subject of stadia, it looks like the long-promised £36m Government funding for football stadia in NI will be released soon, which depending on how it's allocated, could help a handful of clubs in a big way, or, a lot of clubs more modestly.
Plus there is quite a bit of outside investment (relatively speaking) coming into certain clubs (Coleraine, Carrick, possibly Cliftonville etc), though I fear this could lead to a new "arms race" in players' wages and transfer fees etc, thereby encouraging clubs to over-reach themselves, rather than develop progressively over the long-term.
I really don't see how, on the basis that "A rising tide floats all boats".Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
While I genunely believe that the absence of a pyramid at best maintains a cartel of the same old clubs, at worst leads to stagnation. I mean, the big four Dublin clubs are undoubtedly bigger/better than their Belfast equivalents, but that should hardly surprise considering the respective populations and economies etc. However, below our four Prem teams, the Championship also has Dundela and H&W Welders, who are managing ok in East Belfast even in the shadow of Glentoran - Welders' stadium is excellent btw. (Belfast also has Newington, though they look like they could be relegated to the third tier after this season.)
And more generally, even if more than half of LOI clubs are f-t, it seems to me to be very disappointing/unrealised that ROI still only supports 17* Senior clubs, versus NI's 24 (outwith Derry City).
Furthermore, in that there are few large towns or regions without Senior representation, I'd say the IL has a wider geographical spread of senior clubs than the LOI. Of course, this new NL is an attempt to address this issue, but I really don't see how suddenly elevating a number of (essentially) self-selected clubs to a level which is still miles short of even the FD (facilities, crowds, finances etc), can remedy that. Instead the solution must surely be to develop from the bottom-up organically, and from the centre outwards, even though that could take years to take root properly.
P.S. I feel compelled to add, before s.o. jumps in, that I certainly don't discount the other advantages the LOI has over the IL (eg 35k at the Aviva, or Shams thumping Larne in Europe etc). But as someone who has a nerdy, even sad, interest in this sort of thing, and especially since the IL is also going through its latest revamp of the pyramid just now, it's good to look outwards as well as inwards, so as to see how others do things. And you did ask! :wink:
* - i.e. excludes DCFC, UCD and Kerry, who cannot yet said to be firmly established, even if it's looking ever more promising.
If Google Earth is anything to go by (I told you I was nerdy! :cool:), it doesn't appear to have any spectator facilities, or even a fence round it (athletics track doesn't allow). No car parking either, though there looks to be a massive hospital car park next door. Meanwhile, the facility is completely hemmed in by housing and other development, so no room for expansion - stands, terraces etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shearer
It's appears basically just to be a playing area inside an 8 lane athlettics track. Oh, and there's also a bowling green it seems. And a GAA club across the way.
Eh, what?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Some form of pyramid is needed. An Amateur pathway and an Elite pathway can coexist. Going from Amateur to Elite pathway should require more licencing criteria etc.. It just seems otherwise that potential support bases for full time professional clubs is being divided.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I was talking about ROI (state) supporting Senior football clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
DCFC aren't ROI (obv); UCD may play in the LOI, but they aren't a conventional professional club in the sense of being sustained by the usual means (crowds, sponsors, advertising, media etc); while Kerry may well become established - and fair play if/when they do - but it's still not (quite) confirmed.
Eh, what?
You know nothing about UCD based on that post anyway
Yup but Drog Town have a tidy ground in a housing estate, size of a pitch and clubroom. There'd be little space for spectators unless standing on the sideline. Probably not a problem initially but get any sort of decent crowd and it's a squeeze. Lourdes Stadium has all the space needed. These are all preliminary expressions of interest, plenty will be filtered out but should be canvassed for wider structure development. Its gas seeing Salthill, Mervue in again but this time not able to lord it over GUFC - I'd love to see them in Europe the same season the other two are humbly entering a 3rd tier of LoI after returning to their little fiefdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shearer
Newmarket Celtic won the FAI Junior Cup in recent years. A club like that could be pragmatic that LoI football or full time professionalism isn't attainable.
In a dual pyramid structure, a Newmarket Celtic could strive to be the top of the Junior/District to Intermediate/Regional pathway.
The Elite pathway then could have more stringent criteria in coaching qualifications, infrastructure, academies etc.. For strategic reasons having clubs from certain regions could be a preferred necessity for the Elite pathway. The intention of the Elite pathway should be the attainability of full time professionalism.
The suggested National League could well be a good start towards building a pathway from the district & regional leagues to the National League eventually.
A pragmatic approach might be required on the National League to LoI. Whether there is direct promotion or else in time licencing to be achieved for clubs who want to be within an Elite pathway.
Thanks again for your post, but criticism has always been considered as a negative word as it can be associated with the sender who wants to show their disapproval on comments!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
No, it started as a response to my post that I didn't believe there 67 clubs interested because very few publicly said they were interested and then you started using social media "sources"(ffs!) as fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
Criticism certainly hasn't always been considered a negative word.Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
It's the cornerstone of debate. Points should stand up to scrutiny. If they don't (for example, the criticism of your suggestion that UCD would be interested in the third tier) then they need adjusting.
If you tell me that were the football club detached from the university, had to rent or buy its own ground (Bowl or elsewhere), and was unable to avail of scholarships, that it could still operate sustainably over the long-term in the FD (at least), then fair enough, I'm happy to retract.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
In any case, it doesn't detract from my basic point that ROI surely ought to be able to support more than 19 Senior clubs. I mean, Scotland supports 42 clubs on the same population, even despite the two Ugly Sisters sucking the blood from everyone else.
Yes, it would.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Let's not kid ourselves that other clubs aren't getting Council support too. Would Bray be sustainable if they had to pay market rent for the Carlisle and not a peppercorn rent for example? I think Waterford and Derry get good deals on their rent too.
And it's good to see organisations like that supporting the league too
nr637 and some others are obviously enthusiastic and passionate about the expansion of the senior game, if we got a € for every time pyramid was mentioned we'd all have a nice earner. In the absence of any concrete info speculation is all there is and why not, its harmless. Ive mentioned a few Ive heard but was I sitting in committee meetings when the issue was discussed, nope, but I do know a few people that are involved in the admin of local sides that are usually on the ball. Under the circumstances and the very surprising report of 67 interested clubs its a little harsh to come down on posters that excitedly guestimate on who many of those clubs out of left field might be. We all struggled to think of where we'd get 20 sides not so long ago.
UCD as an example was an error but sub in Maynooth. UCD is also a bona fide LoI club associated with the university but would function indpendently if the university decided to cut ties. Thankfully the University see the LoI club as an asset, they could do more even imo by maybe having The Bowl prioritised for the LoI side rather than wrecking the pitch with other sports that dont need spectator facilities of note.
While I accept your criticism, I think you will find that a debate is about opposing views, I agree with the use of social media as a form of sourcing information that maybe true in part and you don't, is that fair to say!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu