Thanks. It's on RTÉ as well now actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by holidaysong
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Thanks. It's on RTÉ as well now actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by holidaysong
Players going without wages…and so it begins…
Haven't had an asterisk on the league table in a few years now. Fair play Dundalk.
Yeah I suppose my thoughts were is there a winding up order already in progress in the background from other people owed money? Usually the playing staff signalling their lack of payment is the last stop on the train to folding. Before that other bills would have been pushed aside, usually the tax man would be unpaid at this stage as well. Worrying signs tbh. They may scrape to the off season but it'll be a long tough winter if that's the caseQuote:
Originally Posted by redobit
This is a bit more worrying than the other cases we have had in the past. I could stand corrected on this, but the clubs that have dropped out and come back are able to do so mainly because there is no significant asset on their balance sheet - ie they dont own a ground, Galway, Cork, Treaty/Limerick, Waterford. Where they do own the ground the risk of debt is that there is an asset that can be sold to pay debt, and potentially lose the ground. I appreciate we are only hearing breaking news, but this is a worry for one of our stalwart clubs.
Dundalk FC don't own the site that Oriel Park sits on though, it is owned privately and leased to the club. Which could possibly be a blessing in disguise here.
It's obvious now why Ainscough was so mad the Pats game was called off 2 weeks ago
I'd imagine the income from game was due to cover the wages and that's why he is telling them they will get them in a few days
Worrying times all the same.
The biggest issue even if we do stay up, no Prem Division licence unless the pitch and floodlights are upgraded. That's going to cost a few hundred grand (although I do know we have applied for some grant to cover some of this, James Rogers mentioned it on his podcast)
Injured on the first day of this season too and has missed half the season. Finally seems to be getting back to fitness. Caulfield seems to love him as he was selecting him despite being clearly unfit for a few games.Quote:
Originally Posted by redarmyfaction
Even if Dundalk manage to see out the season and somehow get to and win a play off, I can't see us getting a PD licence after the last 72 hours of events.
We are either in the FD in 2025 already or worse wound up and have to re-form, unless something spectacular happens, and that's highly unlikely, we could be looking at this very shortly:
DFC* 1903-2024
*Formed as GNR / then Dundalk GNR, but there were direct links, and first season in LOI was 1926 I think, so not far off 100 continuous seasons in the LOI.
It's a tough tough business. With wages spiraling and 'investors' at a lot of clubs it's hard going. If you cut the budget too far you end up in trouble anyway as fans and sponsors rapidly lose interest. Hope Dundalk come out of it OK.
But I fear there are turbulent times ahead for the league, not just Dundalk.
1926/27 was the first LOI season. The 'GNR' part of the name was dropped after 4 seasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by oriel
I think the learnings from Dundalk and others before them, which are never learnt, is to actually invest in the club when the going is good, and not just the first team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
It's been point out over and over that all of Dundalk's "winnings" from Europe were just spent on players bonuses and wages in subsequent years.
Galway United don't have a whole lot of tangible assets from the Comers' investment but the big project the club are working on is a training base which would be an absolutely huge achievement for the club if it could be gotten over the line.
Shamrock Rovers could be on shaky financial footing if they miss out on Europe for next season, which isn't beyond the realms of possibility, but Tallaght Stadium has been improved beyond all recognition and although Rovers don't own it they're the anchor tenants.
For the first time in my lifetime following the league there is at least talk of government support for clubs, so although Dundalk may be in a terrible situation at the moment I actually think the future of the league is looking very positive.
Its the hope what kills you! As my club struggles at the foot of the 1st you do ask is it worth it....but then you realise that there may a few emperors new clothes clubs out there and if you stay in the mix well you never never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
If you had told me that Dundalk, who in 1 year earned almost as much as they had in all their previous years, would now be short of money, I would not have thought it possible. If I recall correctly, the earnings from europe that year, which were then held up by the FAI , also hastened the departure of the FAI CEO.
Can I ask a stupid question, where did the money go?
Per my post yesterday, most of these points:Quote:
Originally Posted by LTFC
Legacy issues and poorly managed from at least 3 previous owners have all contributed to this mess.
When p6 left, there was 2.1 M or so in the bank, and the then owners led by StatSports just ran that money down in 2 years, and still made a loss even with 500k euro monies in.
A huge gripe with Dundalk fans was the money not invested from 2016-pre covid on any spectator improvements. 2 new pitches were installed (1.6M), YDC re-fitted, new gym, players canteen, new dressing rooms, video room, add in 500k or so paid in legacy planning fees for the actual building (back to a previous owner), new club offices, new merchandise shop, can't think of more but that was it really, absolutely zero to show for it, spectator improvement wise.
Group stage 2020 profits would only have funded post covid, and also to add the 2016 group stage apart from all of above in bold was all spent on player budgets during the Kenny era, all it achieved really was winning the 2018 and 2019 league, then the cup in 2020 on the final whirlwind.
Attendances are hoovering around 2,200 to 2750, comparing that with even Shels or Pats its around 1,500 below (20k min ticket sales less per game).
The club has been badly run since almost to the day that p6 (part 2) took over, this would be a year after Kenny left, and probably after the end of the last league title season of 2019, enter Mad Bill, then Covid, then P6 part 2 turned toxic, then StatsSport led group took over at end of 2021, stayed all of 2022 and 2023, didn't spend a single cent of their own money, each season DFC were the final club to tie down players, they then left end of 2023, then enter the mostly unheard of one man show that was Ainscough end of 2023, and this is where its at now.
He obv didn't do his due diligence, there seems to be tax issues, local supply debts, he didn;t raise the investment he was talking about.
There's a lot to be said for a well-made DVD and PowerPoint presentationQuote:
Originally Posted by oriel
Thanks for that.
It is a salutary lesson. If a club does get a large , and lets be honest unexpected windfall by Irish soccer standards, on how to blow it!
From a Kerry FC point of view, looks certainly like we dodged a bullet. Perhaps Kerry's occupancy in the League could have been very short lived.
Has Fran Gavin popped up to claim credit for creating the environment yet?
Is he still burrowed away in Abbotstown? How he ever kept his job was beyond me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman
Yes I recall the Anto Murphy of Bohs long throw now that's it mentioned. A great asset to have for any team, which I think will become more popular.
Sad situation about Dundalk. If games are going to be moved against the participation agreement there need to be a financial compensation for the club that is not in Europe. What Stephen Kenny was looking for recently went against any sense of fair play, so whoever in the FAI over-ruled the head of the league has questions to be asked of.
However Dundalk, or any club should not be living day to day to cover their working capital. What been posted here shows how bad the management off the field has been at Oriel in recent years. It is also a warning to other clubs if the player wage bills are not brought under control in the league soon.
Remind me again what happens if Dundalk go belly up before the end of the season? If I remember correctly all their games become void. What would that mean for the league table?Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
It's here - https://foot.ie/threads/295008-Table...tures-expunged
It's in no-one's interest for them to fold that quickly though. That's a sure-fire way of not getting paid.
Possible news on a 100% take over from Ainscough early next week, 2 local based and one other company in a consortium that is looking to buy off BA, and that seemingly has gathered pace over the weekend.
Still a disgrace BA is hiding in Boston, not taking calls, and knowing full well his current employees have not been paid, of course everyone wants to see this mess sorted, but people going without wages is just not on, and that surely has to be addressed first.
Who would honestly be wanting to take over Dundalk in this mess with escalating debts, players/staff not being paid, legal actions pending from ex-players and inevitably further financial skeletons lurking in the Oriel Park closet?
I had a read again over Pages 9-11 of this thread again and most could see this Dundalk takeover by no-bobs Ainscough and his phantom investors ending up in this ****show. To think some Dundalk fans were losing their minds at Pat Hoban leaving as if he and his agent didn't see the writing on the wall
Im struggling to see how BA can find someone to take over a company with debts of ??? 1.5 million and pending legal actions etc AND on the brink of relegation to Div 1 which will mean the "asset" of European Co Efficient will be next to zero by the time it is relevant again.
Examinership would keep the club alive while writing off debts but examinerships are unpredictable.
It seems a takeover could be happening next week. Debts are big that's for sure, but you can deal with them if there is a structure, revenue for a start will need a payment plan but that can be done.
Rovers went into examinership and most debts were wiped, not sure I agree with that, and would prefer if DFC didn't (yet it could happen) I would much prefer new group to take over and deal with the debt, slice and divide.
For Rovers, more you think of it, their route was like hitting the jackpot, all debts forgiven, then moved into a stadium that they paid very little towards, but granted monthly rent is now upped from 8k to 20k (I think), high price but to be fair its a great facility as anchor tenants and they have very strong crowds / revenue so that's also fair. Cork City are in the same boat, its definitely the way forward for LOI clubs, to rent off local authority or FAI sub club (MFA). Derry / Waterford / Galway etc have similar set ups, all playing in very good grounds that they don't own but is a good facility.
Whoever buys DFC will pay zero for the purchase but will take responsibility for the debt, as for the coefficient, that's like a pension plan, its only relevant if you are around for it, and Dundalk won't be making europe any time soon.
Bohs had millions written off, Shels were forced relegated for huge financial debts not sure how their debt was covered, Derry also for dual contracts, Drogs for some reason escaped same fate with huge debts, again not sure how that ended. Cork City had issues in the past in a lot of guises, hard to think really of a club that was 'clean' last 20 years, for some reason St Pats spring to mind as one. Sligo R maybe also.
In summary, almost every club in the current PD has had major financial challenges, and not getting away from Dundalk either this is obviously a repeat of 2012, and 1994, and 1973 when we had to sell Irish Internationalist like Tommy McConville, and Turlough O'Connor, it just seems to be boom and bust all over again.
The cycle of Irish football, but what is a change now is, a lot of clubs are (relatively) stable, and have a good set up, obviously Dundalk are not one !
Horrible week but we live in hope, and maybe some good news this week.
Rumour is that a Dundlk fan was in Belgium over the weekend and picked up €150m and is dressed as a white night! If that were true you'd still battle scorned people past with scores to settle and agendas to drive with contacts in the game pushed to be awkward. Old guard to return and do same old stuff. BA may look up the look before you leap adage, but there was few oversights that may have been pertinant to a buyer that may not have been entered in the diary, fold or not, limp on, or have a billionaire owner back it would not be a surprie to see some legal fun and games over the next while.
Did Bohs have millions written off? Shels and Drogs went all out austerity, why Shels current position is such a big deal for their old original fanbase from early 2000s. The rest bar St Pats, Sligo and Dundalk have been through examinership or are new clubs that may or may not have bought rolls of honour. Waterford FC were the quietest about it, a name change disguising a new company and cutting debt adrift and were caught out on European participation, damn all questions were asked bar that.
Not sure whether Id want Dundalk to cut debt loose through examinership especially if creditors are local businesses. Dont have 20 odd years to wait ala Shels to see a recorvery so maybe pragmatism rather than doing what I would consider the right thing and pay every cent, restructured or not.
One thiing is for sure multiple owners in a short space of time is a club killer in the same way that multiple managers is a team killer. No matter what the wealth of a club owners mad fookers will tear things apart, as will the self important egos, those that are just not up to the level required. I think that was spotted by this owner but didnt have the deep pockets to stay in the game while change happened. All Id ask is that a new owner brings in new staff in key positions - finances, operations in the main, facilities management/development planner, football side of things a technical director over youth development, scouting and even a proven director of football type, so not much. Football admin and media people are great.
An updated History of Dundalk FC uncut would be a singular income stream as it would be a worldwid bestseller from Abibi to Bill, Fillipo to ZZahibo nd Magilton - no stats, a behind the scenes exposé with all the angles, rants and rumours untangled by the individuals themselves, owners, agents, local journos and supporters itk.....it'd be a Netflix docudrama in months!
We did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by oriel
Can I ask one question, and this isn't to wind up or insult Dundalk fans. I like you, wouldn't be a big fan of clubs going into examinership to escape paying bills, ideally the club would find new owners who would come in a manage the debt while trying to professionalise the club so that it can actually stand on its own too feet but, will the majority of Dundalk fans get on board with that after a few years of mediocrity, perhaps even in the FD?Quote:
Originally Posted by oriel
The whole "we want our club back" brigade, all commented at the time that they didn't care if the club couldn't compete for titles and if it had to even go PT in the FD for a while, they just wanted the club back but as soon as it became clear the local lads weren't putting any money in they were soon ran as well.
I remember clearly, one game during the middle of the SK era, possibly 2017, I said to my HT pint crew in the upstairs bar (at HT !) that I would gladly 'give up' one season of going to win the league (2013-2020, Dundalk finished 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st, then poss 3rd) if the monies could be diverted into ground improvements for one year,Quote:
Originally Posted by outspoken
(SK only wanted budget spent on the sqaud) so yes I would gladly take a period of not competing if it meant the club could get back to being run properly, and then move on to gradual ground improvements.
How did Bohs manage the millions then that was booked as losses?Quote:
Originally Posted by NavanBohs
Well the bulk of it was managed by selling our main asset, Dalymount to DCC in an agreement to rent it back off them. Some remaining immediate debt was covered by a members' levy agreed upon at a club AGM/EGM in mid-2015, and a plan was put in place to repay all other outstanding debt over the next year or two from our income. We've run a tight ship and been debt-free since, thankfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by oriel
The way Dundalk have fallen from Grace it's probably best they go down, rebuild with realistic budgets, goals and stadium plans under the guidance of a competent board with proven financial capabilities in place. Possibly a new fan joint venture. It may take a season or two to do it but it has to be done and could be for the better long term. Get rid of the current clown BA, pay the players and start the rebuild now. All said it's a shame to see this happen. As stated in earlier posts other clubs have had tough times went down and came back or managed to stay in the PD knowing they would not be challenging for anything for a few years.Quote:
Originally Posted by outspoken
Nobody here has the answers and when we play Dundalk, for 90 mins you are the enemy but we support you in your fight for survival long term.
And the rest of it was paid by selling the ground a second timeQuote:
Originally Posted by NavanBohs
Yes, totally forgot (not sure how) you sold the ground, and that was indeed a big asset. Agreed also on Bohs run as a tight ship. Decent crowds now to boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by NavanBohs
Wasn't it a Bohs fan on here who pointed out how they had sold the ground three times and still had it?Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
When will Dundalk/LOI fans (or football fans more generally) learn?
As far back as when Peak 6 rocked up at Oriel with all sorts of promises, Dundalk fans were warned repeatedly on here by multiple people that it would not end well. The response of pretty much every one of them was various shades of "Haha - you're just jealous/bitter".
If you allow yourself to be passed around like a cheap whorr in pursuit of glory, don't be surprised if the only constant is that you keep getting fcuked.
Meanwhile well run clubs in the league (of which there are few - but Sligo definitely spring to mind) are cut out of the trophies by the financial doping at clubs like Dundalk.
Irish football needs to find a way to live within its own means and not just get into the car with any stranger that flashes their lights at them.
Why? Do you want to buy it from us, again?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Of course we lost our minds. Out best player and club captain had a year left on his contract and was let leave for a few grand.Quote:
Originally Posted by total hoofball
Any decent owner would have said if you want to leave, you can go when your contracts up (Word is Hoban and O Donnell had a big falling out and that's why he wanted out in first place)
For the umpteenth time EYG you gloat with the benefit of hindsight, jaysus even Mystic Meg was correct on an occasion! To repeat myself for your benefit the P6 mess wasnt a forgone conclusion, if eg, Mike Tracey had stayed as chairman it would all be a different story, Bill single handedly was duped by agents and P6's error was not putting the breaks on. Probably ageist but Matt needed a plaything for his elderly mad Dad, P6 werent looking to leave until fans wanted the out. From what has been said by people like MT the Bill phase would have passed and a review done, and cost cutting also but cutting from paying Zahibo 8k a week. Losing SK was the catalyst and the messing with managers, a pandemic wasnt much of a help and not using any sort of avalable furlough chewed through reserves also. The ship would have righted itself bar pretty much a perfect storm. It is irrelevant in the grand scheme but it would be like me saying it will end in tears with the appointment of Higgins or that Derry can spend what they like but wont win a league, year after year i'd be able to gloat about being right until eventually Im not and I say nothing. Club ownership and management will always eventually eventually turn sour - even when Jack Walker tried to future proof his efforts at Blackburn beyond his life it went bad. Derry wont always have a billionaire owner!! Cork and FORAS and their sworn adherence to sensible budgeting failed, Rovers were almost a missed penalty from a big change in ownership and at the whims of non fans. Football by nature is cyclical, Dundalk FC/Athletic/United or some variation of the club will win the league again one day, I hope we will be around for it and I will point out to you my own Mystic Meg skills EYG! Local owners at Dundalk fall out and leave the club worse than P6 did, where was your harbinger of doom then, or after an unknown, financially and otherwise with BA? You had no greater insight in to P6 than anyone and were commenting in hope at the time. Taking credit for somethingQuote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Again to repeat you will find that the majority of Dundalk fans were not rubbing their hands accusing people of being bitter - I, Ezekiel, L4S, Holidaysong and others on here were cautious in our views on P6. I was far more positive about things after listening to Ainscough!!
When it does come to selling a club, particularly in LoI often beggars cant be choosers. In Dundalk's case more recently its more be careful what you wish for. What assets do Derry and clubs have bar players out of interest that is of tangible value when grounds are not owned by the club. Co-efficients are only of value when qualified for Europe which eg Rovers may not have if one of the stakeholders decided to bail.
On whether Outspoken's question on whether fans will get on board after years of mediocrity - I can only base an answer than nearly a decade in the 1st division didnt kill us. I would say that there would be 1-1.5k gates give or take. But bar the few there is still a sense of most looking for others to do the leg work to improve things. During the BETOP campaign, organised by Ezekiel if I recall, I was cold calling lists of fans to try and get advance sales of tickets, generating money to bring Oriel u to spec to host the European game. As part of that we'd also ask people about multople ticket sales for families or to direct people that might be interested in attending to contact id say 25% more or less said fook off we're not doing your job for you - completely missing the point of the efforts. So there is no straight answer, a mixed bag of angry people, self satisfied people that they got rid of the yanks, and a retur to the fans who will go 'whats the point they're sh1t', things go from we to they very quickly.
Having said all that maybe some multi millionaire will look at Larne and think that there still may be an opportunity to own a football club that could play a Chelsea in Europe on a relative shoestring.