Armenia V Republic of Ireland - Saturday, 4th June 2022 - 2022/23 UEFA Nations League

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Is it confirmed that Sykes is injured? Someone on YBIG claimed he was but I can't find verification. He would at least provide something different.

We're in desperate need of creativity, someone capable of the unexpected - a moment of magic. But obviously those sort of players are in short supply.

Would Mandriou have been a useful option?

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Sykes is injured, yes.

Mandroiu is a fair shout maybe but wouldn't you think Parrott is at least as good?

I think you can pick at selections and roles etc., but the fact is nobody played even to 6/10 standard.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

you are deranged if you think theres enough good loi players to make a difference at international level.

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Well the post above suggests that the Armenian League is below the LOI and they beat us. Admittedly is a 21 year old goal scorer playing in Russia who probably has more flair in his toe than the entire Irish team

A fit jack byrne would be the only loi option i think. hes a lot better than mandriou but his workrate off the ball is probably something kenny would need improved. has sykes not moved to wing back this year? desperate for smallbone and kilkenny to kick on , badly need midfield options.

Thanks for confirming re. Sykes.

I've come to believe Parrot's best position is as 10 or withdrawn striker. His touch, passing ability and finishing are good but I'm not sure he has the raw power or pace to be effective on the wing or as an out-and-out 9 at the highest level.

He needs to be playing more centrally, I think. Nominally he was playing as one of the 2 in a 3-4-2-1 on Saturday, but in reality he stuck out on the left a lot and made little impact against the massed ranks of the Armenian defence.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

I think the reaction has been a tad OTT, and I’d rather reserve full judgement until after the next three games. Agree the result is not good enough but the performance wasn’t that bad, although admittedly lacking the tempo and urgency to win a competitive game. We created chances to score and had long period of comfort and control. However, our dead balls deliveries were poor, and our set plays lacked imagination to capitalise on our aerial strength. Our substitutions had no impact. And Kelleher has to save that.

The result aside, we are in a far better position than where we started under Kenny. The strength of the squad is improved, there is a nice complementary balance there, and we do have genuine pace and a X factor in the forward line that we didn’t previously have. Ogbene is an absolute find for us. Whatever happens with Kenny going forward, the squad he has assembled gives reason for optimism.

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No, not OTT. It was a bone fide shocker. The first half was poor enough but the ship should have been steadied by a Kenny/Andrews tactical refresh at halftime. It didn't happen. We went from poor to atrocious after the resumption. A disaster on and off the pitch. Two good results this week can air-brush the damage, yes, but let's not polish this turd and call it anything other than a pitiful all-round effort against lowly opposition with embarrassing recent form.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Thanks for confirming re. Sykes.

I've come to believe Parrot's best position is as 10 or withdrawn striker. His touch, passing ability and finishing are good but I'm not sure he has the raw power or pace to be effective on the wing or as an out-and-out 9 at the highest level.

He needs to be playing more centrally, I think. Nominally he was playing as one of the 2 in a 3-4-2-1 on Saturday, but in reality he stuck out on the left a lot and made little impact against the massed ranks of the Armenian defence.

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yeah thats what i dont get. ogbene was so central, parrott was so wide when if anything the roles should have been reversed. ogbene doesnt have the technical skills in those tight areas

What I didn't understand was that against a similarly set up Lithuania only three months ago, Parrott came on, played through the middle and made the difference with the late winner. Against Armenia, he was isolated as a wide-left striker, or at least that's what it looked like where he was playing to me, and outnumbered by a five man defence. So why not move him into the middle, and play him where he had scored in his last game?

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Thanks for confirming re. Sykes.

I've come to believe Parrot's best position is as 10 or withdrawn striker. His touch, passing ability and finishing are good but I'm not sure he has the raw power or pace to be effective on the wing or as an out-and-out 9 at the highest level.

He needs to be playing more centrally, I think. Nominally he was playing as one of the 2 in a 3-4-2-1 on Saturday, but in reality he stuck out on the left a lot and made little impact against the massed ranks of the Armenian defence.

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To me, Parrott is just another Stokes. He probably got to his level because he developed before other players but now isn't developing enough physically or athletically to stand out. Apparently he's 6 foot 1, he doesn't appear that tall.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Shorn of their retired star man Mhkitaryan, the vast majority of the Armenian squad play in the Armenian league - ranked behind the leagues of Lithuania, Moldova, Kosovo, Luxembourg and, yes, the League of Ireland.

There's no excuse for what happened the other day.

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I think that's really valid. Alashkert of Armenia made the Conference League group stages last season - the first time an Armenian side ever made the group stages of Europe. They started by beating Connah's Quay in CL qualifying after extra time, and ended with one point in the group stages.

I don't think heat or end of season or a really weak squad by our usual standards count as an excuse in defending not just the result, but the performance. We deserved to lose. Their keeper hadn't a save of note to make. Even compare the composure of the finish for their offside goal with Robinson's rushed effort.

I thought we had been making progress with the results in Oct/Nov, but now I think we were just lucky to score early in those games and force the other side to open up. If we don't score, we simply don't know what to do.

And I don't really know how to fix it. I don't think motivation is an issue. I think Kenny isn't up to it, and I think the players probably aren't as good as we often think they are here. But it still shouldn't be this bad. The last two games are us back to rock bottom after a period of optimism.

Anyone know how all this impacts on seeding for the Euros in October btw? It's ten groups so I'm presuming we're looking at third seeds? I presume it would have taken a fairly good campaign here to rise to second seeds?

If we win the group we are guaranteed second seeds , at this stage I don't think its clear what else we could do to get second.

I think circumstance will see us do very good against Ukraine and then back on track. But it doesn't take away from the fact we still really struggle to beat teams like Armenia. I �� agree with you on the other games as well, if we don't score early it becomes a desperate(management and players), immature( players not having the guile/know how to take the game to the opposition in a meaningful way, perhaps unsure from management) and blunt (management tactical astuteness)performance

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

What I didn't understand was that against a similarly set up Lithuania only three months ago, Parrott came on, played through the middle and made the difference with the late winner. Against Armenia, he was isolated as a wide-left striker, or at least that's what it looked like where he was playing to me, and outnumbered by a five man defence. So why not move him into the middle, and play him where he had scored in his last game?

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Not against the suggestion of playing him more centrally, but is this what really happened against Lithuania? He starting position when he came on was on the left of the attack, this changed to the right when Knight came on, and for the sequence of play prior to the goal, he had simply drifted into a more central position from the right. But more generally, don't think the positions of the front three are intended to be fixed, especially when the wing backs are advanced to offer width.

Well either way, someone like him and Robinson needed to just be brave enough to take responsibility to get on the ball where they think they can make an impact. I didn't see that on Saturday or against Azerbaijan at home, whereas I did see it against Qatar (Robinson), Andorra and Lithuania (both Parrott).

I don't know. The tactics/ formation has been pretty consistent for a while now. So was the slow and lethargic tempo, and the lack of the fluidity of previous games (for example, saw little of the CBs floating into attack as previously), down to players being effectively out of season and the "conditions"?

The slow and lethargic tempo has been consistent for a while too in fairness.

Azerbaijan and Qatar in particular were changed completely by us scoring in the first five minutes.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

What I didn't understand was that against a similarly set up Lithuania only three months ago, Parrott came on, played through the middle and made the difference with the late winner. Against Armenia, he was isolated as a wide-left striker, or at least that's what it looked like where he was playing to me, and outnumbered by a five man defence. So why not move him into the middle, and play him where he had scored in his last game?

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Totally agree he was restricted by the line and then hooked off, I would get Robinson and Ogbene on the sides a Parrott as 9. But on Wednesday we need a true 9. Even Hogan can play the way Kieffer did yesterday and Hogan is a better player

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The slow and lethargic tempo has been consistent for a while too in fairness.

Azerbaijan and Qatar in particular were changed completely by us scoring in the first five minutes.

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We have been holding onto the ball more for a while now, so in that sense there has been a slow and lethargic tempo consistency in us passing the ball rather than lumping it up the field. But I think there is a tempo difference in the past year, that was absent on Saturday, compared to, for example, the tempo of play during the last Nations League campaign. And yes, goals do change games.

I'm not so sure.

The first hour in Andorra and Luxembourg were brutal stuff. Home against Azerbaijan and Lithuania were dreadful. Slow, ponderous and unimaginative each time. As bad as anything in the Nations League for me. (Slovakia away was vaguely decent I thought; the exception really)

Games against better sides (Serbia/Portugal) are different because they're not sitting back against us, so we can get more attacking space. They're also better than us of course.

No, I disagree. I think there has been a lot more positional movement and energy than seen on Saturday. But as I said in a previous post, I’d like reserve full judgement until after the next three games. Not sure the magnitude of the Barry influence in our turnaround last year, maybe after the next three games will know.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Not against the suggestion of playing him more centrally, but is this what really happened against Lithuania? He starting position when he came on was on the left of the attack, this changed to the right when Knight came on, and for the sequence of play prior to the goal, he had simply drifted into a more central position from the right. But more generally, don't think the positions of the front three are intended to be fixed, especially when the wing backs are advanced to offer width.

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I meant if he was not effective playing in the withdrawn role against a team who were packing the defence, why persist with him up front against five defenders?
I made the same point about Obafemi - he came on and played in the same position, but was equally ineffective.
What's the definition of madness, again?

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Originally Posted by ifk101

We have been holding onto the ball more for a while now, so in that sense there has been a slow and lethargic tempo consistency in us passing the ball rather than lumping it up the field. But I think there is a tempo difference in the past year, that was absent on Saturday, compared to, for example, the tempo of play during the last Nations League campaign. And yes, goals do change games.

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I think we missed the urgency and leadership that Doherty brings, and of course his quality. He got forward into dangerous positions in a few of our recent games. I think Stevens has generally been very solid for us but I thought he was especially awful on Saturday. Maybe their 5 at the back negated our wing backs but I thought he was ponderous and careless. His time may be coming to an end. I was surprised Ebosele didn't make the match day squad. I like the disruption he beings to games and I think he'd have been an option from the bench and in a few possible positions.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I meant if he was not effective playing in the withdrawn role against a team who were packing the defence, why persist with him up front against five defenders?
I made the same point about Obafemi - he came on and played in the same position, but was equally ineffective.
What's the definition of madness, again?

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Kenny’s in-game management is questionable. None of the subs that came on had an impact + no evident tactical changes made. I think I would have put Hourihane on simply for his dead balls deliveries as given how deep Armenia were playing after their goal, a set play was our most likely chance of getting a goal as there wasn't the space to get in behind them to stretch them.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think we missed the urgency and leadership that Doherty brings, and of course his quality. He got forward into dangerous positions in a few of our recent games. I think Stevens has generally been very solid for us but I thought he was especially awful on Saturday. Maybe their 5 at the back negated our wing backs but I thought he was ponderous and careless. His time may be coming to an end. I was surprised Ebosele didn't make the match day squad. I like the disruption he beings to games and I think he'd have been an option from the bench and in a few possible positions.

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Yeah, Doherty has been our best player under Kenny so certainly missed. I thought it was evident early on that Ogbene's pace was troublesome for them to deal with and that's something we didn't fully capitalise on (although the ref didn't help us here on occasion). If we had pace on both flanks, with Ebosele as well, maybe ...

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Yeah, Doherty has been our best player under Kenny so certainly missed. I thought it was evident early on that Ogbene's pace was troublesome for them to deal with and that's something we didn't fully capitalise on (although the ref didn't help us here on occasion). If we had pace on both flanks, with Ebosele as well, maybe ...

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Doherty aside, I think all the other players mentioned are only good when attacking space,using the ball in behind and running into/onto space/that. It worked in the first half but Armenia copped onto it and sat deep and countered our high line by using the space we'd left and going down the outside. We were out manouvered like a rook coming up the side of a chessboard.

It's been mentioned already bit parrot seemed most effective coming in off the wings into the central position and playing behind a striker why didn't that happen the last day? Why didn't Robinson try coming off the left, was he not match fit to play that role we know he can do it? Why bring on obafemi to play high up when his best seems to come from attacking in behind defenders or near 1-2s and go around the defender? We really lacked any sort of astuteness it's like I've said before when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

Also been mentioned about players floating a lot, it can be confusing from tv to figure out who's where but I wouldn't say it's a bad thing if we used it effectively - which we did on a couple of occasions with Hendrick spraying the ball about in the first half

The best performance for me was away to Azerbaijan, where we started with the attitude that we were just better then them, and we showed them we were better right from the start, and had them broken as a team before halftime.

It was a rare 90-minute performance. So often it takes us ages to get into the game, or else our play peters out after a decent first 20 minutes.

In some of the other games where we got good results, we were still very shaky in spells, such as the Luxembourg game, where it took us an hour to finally make them look like the minnows they are.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Doherty aside, I think all the other players mentioned are only good when attacking space,using the ball in behind and running into/onto space/that. It worked in the first half but Armenia copped onto it and sat deep and countered our high line by using the space we'd left and going down the outside. We were out manouvered like a rook coming up the side of a chessboard.

It's been mentioned already bit parrot seemed most effective coming in off the wings into the central position and playing behind a striker why didn't that happen the last day? Why didn't Robinson try coming off the left, was he not match fit to play that role we know he can do it? Why bring on obafemi to play high up when his best seems to come from attacking in behind defenders or near 1-2s and go around the defender? We really lacked any sort of astuteness it's like I've said before when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

Also been mentioned about players floating a lot, it can be confusing from tv to figure out who's where but I wouldn't say it's a bad thing if we used it effectively - which we did on a couple of occasions with Hendrick spraying the ball about in the first half

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The 9 cant be the empty space, the 9 must be someone, of course running diagonally and then ogbebe or the other forward end up as 9. Ireland can't afford playing 9less. It is silly even the difference between El Loco and Guardiola. Bielsa plays a 9, whilst Guardiola doesn't all the time. Because of the players at disposal. Ireland is not Man city's Josep.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Isn't Connor Ronan more like the kind of player needed to unlock a packed deep-lying defence? Parrott should have been used in that type of role though, so it's not like there wasn't anyone like that available to us.

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I think they both can do it tbh
Its more to have a plan B when we need a change of strategy. When we went down with 19 mins to play including injury time. I honestly don't think anyone thought we would score.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

A fit jack byrne would be the only loi option i think. hes a lot better than mandriou but his workrate off the ball is probably something kenny would need improved. has sykes not moved to wing back this year? desperate for smallbone and kilkenny to kick on , badly need midfield options.

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I don't think it makes much difference when yiu play that 523 shape. You end up with the 2 wide front players taking the space you want your wing backs getting into. Then you have nobody in the box for all the endless crosses that go in.

I think we need to try to play a 532 with a narrow front 2 who complement each other maybe obafemi and parrott with knight as the most advanced of the midfield 3. It leaves you space for your wing backs to actually move into and gives you a chance of having players in the box for crosses.

I'm not sure Coleman and stevens have the legs for it though. I think it's ogbene and ebosele s best positions though neither are skillful but both have great pace and power well suited to coming on to the ball rather than taking the ball with your back to goal in forward positions. There likely defensive frailties need to be covered by a back three(otherwise what's the point of 3 centrehalves) along with Cullen working across the pitch.

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Originally Posted by liamoo11

I don't think it makes much difference when yiu play that 523 shape. You end up with the 2 wide front players taking the space you want your wing backs getting into. Then you have nobody in the box for all the endless crosses that go in.

I think we need to try to play a 532 with a narrow front 2 who complement each other maybe obafemi and parrott with knight as the most advanced of the midfield 3. It leaves you space for your wing backs to actually move into and gives you a chance of having players in the box for crosses.

I'm not sure Coleman and stevens have the legs for it though. I think it's ogbene and ebosele s best positions though neither are skillful but both have great pace and power well suited to coming on to the ball rather than taking the ball with your back to goal in forward positions. There likely defensive frailties need to be covered by a back three(otherwise what's the point of 3 centrehalves) along with Cullen working across the pitch.

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Exactly right. We have proper wing back options available and emerging with frightening pace. With Coleman and Stevens struggling to get forward our 2 wider front players are drifting wide leaving whose ever in the centre isolated. Parrot snd Obafemi are ideally suited to complement each other as 9 and 10. Despite all the pessimism I think we are one midfielder short of being able to put out a useful team and formation. Assuming of course we have a manager who can pick and coach the right players in the right positions.

Agree with these posts re wing backs. Stevens looked poor. Coleman looked tired. They provided no width or dynamism or invention between them. Reading analysis and listening to coverage since, shouldn't Kenny have subbed a centre half for a forward or midfielder and switched to a formation that might better suit us against 5-4-1? Coleman and Stevens would have done fine at full back against Armenia. Wing back they were just poor. And it made life difficult for the likes of Parrott and Robinson, in particular.

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