Saipan - 20 Years On

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I'm doing grand, thanks. I'm just not sure what your argument is and i have tried to refute them all as i see them in #273 but you keep moving the goalposts. They could have gone to Bangkok instead is your latest position. OK - they could have. They'd still have another flight and jetlag to deal with which was your opening gambit (complete nonsense by the way)... but Roy and Mick would never have fallen out there, I suppose...

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The Bangkok "suggestion" I would have thought was obvious sarcasm given the massage part!

At no point did I ever say Keane and McCarthy wouldnt have fallen out somewhere else, in fact I clearly said in my initial post on this that "Whatever about who is right or wrong between Roy and Mick, the choice of Saipan was weird".

The Genesis Report agrees with my opinion that Saipan was a disaster. Would it have been as difficult to get the required equipment to a place less isolated and difficult to get to?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/fai-...eport-1.445930
"It highlights the absence of training gear, footballs, isotonic drinks and medical equipment in Saipan and describes the Republic's preparations as under-resourced in comparison to the build-up of other nations"


But I suppose at the end of the day we are only little old Ireland and we'll just go on the pi$$ and sing rebel songs wherever we are.

Okie doke. We’ll leave it there so, Eamonn.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Okie doke. We’ll leave it there so, Eamonn.

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Alright. It was a good debate, not a great debate Bill!

None of those criticisms relate to Saipan itself though.

The FAI could easily have made a similar balls up of it anywhere in the world. That's not Saipan's fault

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

None of those criticisms relate to Saipan itself though.

The FAI could easily have made a similar balls up of it anywhere in the world. That's not Saipan's fault

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Ok, last thing Im saying on it.... Saipan was the main issue. The reason those things were not there was because of the logistical difficulty of getting to Saipan. Its an isolated small Island in the middle of nowhere and didnt have any facilities on the Island itself or a huge amount of transport in and out of it. Try book a flight there yourself even today and you'll do well to get there in under 3 transfers

Plenty of two-transfer options on skyscanner. Dublin - London - Hong Kong - Saipan is one of the easier ones. Dublin - Doha (or Abu Dhabi) - Incheon - Saipan is an option too. And that's for people; DHL are a worldwide company who specialise in stuff like this.

Ah thats where they went wrong so.... They used An Post rather than DHL, mystery solved!

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Originally Posted by texidub

We played pretty well at that WC without Keane so staying in Saipan didn't do that much harm to the rest of the squad, in fairness - even if the lack of facilities there sounds crazy unprofessional.

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Excellent point.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Ah thats where they went wrong so.... They used An Post rather than DHL, mystery solved!

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Did they use An Post?

That sounds silly if they did. And definitely the FAI's fault, not Saipan's.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Did they use An Post?

That sounds silly if they did. And definitely the FAI's fault, not Saipan's.

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Sweet Jebus ;)

It's really hard to know what your gripe is tbh.

It's hard to get to - at least three transfers! No it's not; there's a straightforward route.

It's far from Japan - no it's not.

Why not go to Australia or South Africa? Because they are far from Japan.

There was a one-day delay in getting footballs there - that's the island's fault how?

You're not really putting a great case across here.

Roy Keane should have left his bad mood at home.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Did they use An Post?

That sounds silly if they did. And definitely the FAI's fault, not Saipan's.

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Was part of Genesis I think.
An Post & their failings to get the balls onto the right island.

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Was part of Genesis I think.
An Post & their failings to get the balls onto the right island.

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On page 34, Section 12 of the Genesis report I believe the exact quote was "The FAI took no learnings from An Post previous losses of Shergar and Lord Lucan. If this information was not Airgapped by senior leadership Saipan would have had more footballs than people on the Island"

Pretty damning to be fair!

Oh yeah, McAteer also said he never called him an ‘English c**t’

Also, McCarthy said he asked him to come back and he said no

So this is what it is like on the Ireland National Team side of the house. I wouldn’t even have known about this thread it if it wasn’t for the “Future of foot.ie” thread. See it is working already in spreading the gospel of the foot. Amen brothers!

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Look, if I have to spell out everything to the minute detail in terms of what some of the shorthand (like training camp) means, we'll be here all day. You know what I mean. There were no drills, no cardio stuff, etc - none of the stuff you would see when they actually got to the camp. It was about team bonding, morale, relaxation and recuperation primarily and significantly. If you want to dispute that then say so directly.

A big issue... for Keane. Pretty much everyone else more or less - even if it wasn't perfect - understood what they were there for and got on with things as best they could.

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I have some sympathy for McCarthy but ultimately the management and the FAI were responsible for the whole Saipan debacle.

And there's no point in saying it was a big issue for Keane and pretty much no one else. He was our best and most important player for a reason, and managers have to adapt their approach to particular players.

Maybe it's my own personal antipathy towards Keane showing, but re the facilities etc, wasn't this a case of being right in what you say, but not being right to say it?

That is, someone might* have screwed up in selecting Saipan, but surely that's for the post-mortems? And in the meantime you just have to get on with it, especially if you're the Captain, who should be fostering squad harmony, not sabotaging it. Always seemed liked a (typical) lack of true leadership on Keane's part to me.


* - I said "someone" since it may not all have been Mick's doing, and "might", since it depends on what Mick wanted to get out of it. In which case Keane might just have had a quiet word with him beforehand. That's if Keane has ever had a quiet word with anyone. :wink:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Maybe it's my own personal antipathy towards Keane showing, but re the facilities etc, wasn't this a case of being right in what you say, but not being right to say it?

That is, someone might* have screwed up in selecting Saipan, but surely that's for the post-mortems? And in the meantime you just have to get on with it, especially if you're the Captain, who should be fostering squad harmony, not sabotaging it. Always seemed liked a (typical) lack of true leadership on Keane's part to me.


* - I said "someone" since it may not all have been Mick's doing, and "might", since it depends on what Mick wanted to get out of it. In which case Keane might just have had a quiet word with him beforehand. That's if Keane has ever had a quiet word with anyone. :wink:

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Keane = Captain Complainer.

Basically, Keane shouldn’t have vented his frustration to a journalist. That was never going to end well

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

Basically, Keane shouldn’t have vented his frustration to a journalist. That was never going to end well

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Roy Keane isn't a varsity athlete of the brain.

Very true about he could have just got on with it. I can even hear it in Keane's voice: "Where's de courage? Dis is de World Cup and de only ting dat matters is what happens on de pitch. No. No. It's true. De World Cup is a big deal, especially for a small country like IIIiiireland. You just get on wid it, like."

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

Basically, Keane shouldn’t have vented his frustration to a journalist. That was never going to end well

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Yeah, he was probably doing the journalist a favour, seeing as how he's always loved journalists.

And he won't have taken money for it either. Oh no, Keane is known for not being interested in money.

Keane simply didn't want to be there. Let's be honest; he was never the most commited to the Irish cause.

When he played (bizarrely at sweeper) against Iceland at in October of 1996, it was only his fourth appearance since 1994, and he was consequently at the receiving end of boos from the Irish support.

After his appointment as captain, he went AWOL having been called up to the US tour in the summer of '96, so he could watch the cricket, refusing all calls from the management.

What happened in Saipan was never McCarthy's fault.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Keane simply didn't want to be there. Let's be honest; he was never the most commited to the Irish cause.

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And then there's the Iran play-off - I know who I believe:
https://www.soccer-ireland.com/saipan/iran-match.htm

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

Basically, Keane shouldn’t have vented his frustration to a journalist. That was never going to end well

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I agree. I also think McCarthy handled it spectacularly badly. His decision to confront Keane in front of the whole squad, and then to bring up past grievances, was only ever going to end one way. What did he expect to happen when he put Keene’s back up against the wall ? Very bad management in my view. He wanted to show who was in charge and put Keane in his place publicly. Was never going to work.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

And then there's the Iran play-off - I know who I believe:
https://www.soccer-ireland.com/saipan/iran-match.htm

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He played great in he first leg and had a knee injury that a long flight and game would not have helped. I'm with Keane on this one. In the games he played (which was most of the qualifying games), he was immense. He got himself right and played the last couple of friendlies in Lansdowne before heading to Saipan. He also blamed himself for Nigeria's winning goal against us in the last friendly. He was committed. Unfortunately, he just couldn't keep his mouth shut and suck it up for a month

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

He played great in he first leg and had a knee injury that a long flight and game would not have helped. I'm with Keane on this one. In the games he played (which was most of the qualifying games), he was immense. He got himself right and played the last couple of friendlies in Lansdowne before heading to Saipan. He also blamed himself for Nigeria's winning goal against us in the last friendly. He was committed. Unfortunately, he just couldn't keep his mouth shut and suck it up for a month

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He was just okay in the first leg. Any ordinary decent committed player would have endured the so called long flight, not only to play but if such and such a player was to captain his team and country to a World Cup Final??. It's expected of a great captain to be a captain to the death. Puyol was a captain, not only of club but 110% of a country of which he only had a peripheral identity to. That Mick did not handle the the situation in Saipan very well, especially with confronting Keane is no big secret but Ireland's captain should not have put the manager in any such bizarre situation to manage.
When it comes to ranking captains of teams, Keane, regardless of club achievements, would rank at the bottom rungs of national team captains, saved from total ignominy by his superb performances against Netherlands, Portugal home and especially away in the qualifiers.

I think there was an agreement that he wasn't in great shape so if we got a positive result, he would stay home and get treatment. 2-0 at home was certainly a positive result.

Teaser trailer for the Saipan movie released

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Teaser trailer for the Saipan movie released

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That's a terrible trailer ~ Not easy to make, sports / soccer, movies at the best of times anyway !

Looks good to me.
Obviously UMBRO didn't let them use their logo on jerseys.
Coogan is a great choice for McCarthy.

Only thing that stands out is when they're facing off there, McCarthy should be a bit taller than Keane. I met Keane once. He's not a tall man for a professional athlete

The fella playing Keane has a huge head ( physically )

And Steve Coogan would be the least intimidating centre-back of all time ~ Mick McCarthy having being a very intimidating centre-back in his playing time.

How many successful sport films has there even been, in comparison to the numbers made ?

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

How many successful sport films has there even been, in comparison to the numbers made ?

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Not many, but there are some very good ones like Ali, Moneyball, Senna, Murderball, Cool Runnings. They seem to be a bit more fun when they're entirely fictional, a la Rocky, Warrior, Remember the Titans, etc. Still, I, Tonya is probably the closest I can think of to the Keane/Spaipan saga in that you have a real-life story (fictionalised of course, as these things usually are) of someone highly talented and driven but self-sabotaging, and that movie is great.

Remember the titans is based on a true story, but some of it is fictionalised
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexan...ber_the_Titans
Friday night lights is another great high school football film.

Cinderella Man is good and the first movie I've ever seen where I believed the boxing.

Those Rocky movies are ridiculous for boxing. Not one boxer puts his hands in front of his face to protect himself ;)

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Originally Posted by John83

Not many, but there are some very good ones like Ali, Moneyball, Senna, Murderball, Cool Runnings. They seem to be a bit more fun when they're entirely fictional, a la Rocky, Warrior, Remember the Titans, etc. Still, I, Tonya is probably the closest I can think of to the Keane/Spaipan saga in that you have a real-life story (fictionalised of course, as these things usually are) of someone highly talented and driven but self-sabotaging, and that movie is great.

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Well to me, nether Tonya Harding or Nancy Kerrigan were a patch on some of the other top female skaters at other olympics of around that time. Maybe top skaters were a bit thin on the ground at that particular time ( that olympics ). Also, I suppose because of the controversy / violent incident, these two skaters got a hell of a lot more, publicity / coverage, than they otherwise would have. To me, I Tonya, was a passible film / average enough.

I wish Saipan could be forgotten. I lost one of my best football friends over that. We used to go to all the home games and travel to many of the away games together. He was also a big Man U/Keane fan and after Saipan he refused to go to any Irish games. "Why should I support the muppets who let Roy down?" were his exact words. I invited him to parties, social events etc after that but he never came to any: I was one of those muppets in his eyes. Saw him once at his mother's funeral and that's all. Sad.

It's been more than 20 years, there's players in the senior squad who were born after it happened, it really should be left in the past, but both Keane and McCarthy have a fairly high profile as studio analysts in the UK, which keeps it in the public consciousness.
I was thinking about the film itself, will it make money - who is going to see it?

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I was thinking about the film itself, will it make money - who is going to see it?

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Plenty Man U players now don't remember him either.
The multiple TV companies have given more of these ex pros than is necessary an extended relevance after their careers have ended, Keane is one, Ferdinand another, there are loads & don't get me started on Micah Richards. Neville another. McManaman & Carragher are clearly scum bags but you have to listen to them if you want to watch.

I'd have no interest at all in seeing this & hopefully it flops, and with it Saipan fallout might finally stop with it.