Well the fact it's been explained to Terri a 101 times between multiple Irish forums we'll probably be here again in a few months talking about the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
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Well the fact it's been explained to Terri a 101 times between multiple Irish forums we'll probably be here again in a few months talking about the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
EG, you might have missed my recent post
If you disagree, there's a support forum to complain about it. Any further posts in this forum on the topic will be deleted.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Posts deleted.
Last warning EG
use the support forum
https://foot.ie/forums/63-Support
Certainly sounds like there is a growing acceptance Casement will be a non-runner for 2028, even if the powers that be don't want to admit it: https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2024/...casement-park/
Anything to be said for moving it to Crossmaglen?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
Officially confirmed tonight that Casement will not be getting built for the tournament. Therefore the north will not be hosting any games at Euro 2028.
Important now that it's clarified that one of the additional qualification places for hosts can only be allocated to the north if the four nations that are actually hosting games are already qualified (if at all). Would be a nonsense for them to be given a place ahead of an actual host nation.
When previous Euro's have been jointly hosted - Belgium/Netherlands or Austria/Switzerland or Poland/Ukraine - then both hosts were granted automatic qualification, despite there only being 16 finals places in total back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Obviously we cannot permit all five teams automatic places for 2028. But considering that there are now 24 places up for grabs, it's hardly unreasonable that two places should still be guaranteed, even if the other three of the five qualify in the normal manner.
On which point, England are pretty much a shoo-in, and there must be a reasonable chance that at least one of the other four should make it. Thereafter two of the other four qualifying by the usual method is hardly impossible, as we saw eg in France in 2016 when four out of five managed it, or 3 from five in 2020 (though only two made it in 2024).
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...452274191.html
If the games are being spread out so an extra game is given to Ireland, Scotland, and Wales would be great if they could play that one game in Cork unless it's gonna cost a lot of money for just one game. Be better off using the Aviva unless the government are already have plans for Croke Park. Move a game or two to Croke Park if we qualify.
Oh dear! There is no chance of Croke Park being used, for the simple fact that no one city is permitted to host two groups/sets of games - even England aren't allowed to use Wembley for their Group games (assuming they qualify), since the Tottenham Stadium has got the London gig. (Wembley will host the Final, and possibly both Semi-Finals, but I think that's all).Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
As for Páirc Uí Chaoimh, I'm not at all familiar with the stadium, but googling suggests it only has 21k seats - well short of UEFA's 30k minimum, while two uncovered terraced ends holding 12k each are a complete no/no. In addition to which, I seriously doubt that PUC meets UEFA's other tournament stadium requirements, which are notoriously demanding (eg state-of-the-art media facilities). Plus they require control of the stadium (I think) one month before games actually take place - hardly likely during the height of the GAA season.
Oh, and off the top of my head, there are already several other stadia in England which could probably meet the requirements right now eg Southampton, Brighton, Derby, Sunderland, Forest, Leicester etc - why would UEFA prioritise a stadium from a competing sport over one of its own?
But apart from that... :rolleyes:
Cork GAA wouldn't give two ****s if they're getting a bag of cash in exchange. Sure they moved a home hurling fixture to Semple Stadium and played the football game in their other stadium to accommodate Ed Sheeran.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Highly doubt it will be used anyway because wasn't up to par for the rugby WC which probably aren't half as strict as FIFA.
Fair enough on that point, but as for the rest, it isn't Cork GAA, or Dublin/the Minister who get to decide, it's UEFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
Hadn't realised that (rugby). And yes, that won't have been nearly so strict. UEFA's Tournament Requirements for Euro2024 was 190 pages long, almost 100 of which concerned Stadia - the level of detail is phenomenal:Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles...1_DOWNLOAD.pdf
I don't imagine 2028 will be any less stringent...
I would say uefa would like to give the now available venue to some other country than England. The fact that they have dozens of stadia ready to go and didn't apply by themselves tells its own tale.
Scotland should get their act together and talk to the rugby guys about Murrayfield as an option
Yup a solution should be found that allows Ireland, Scotland, and Wales to get some extra games if possible rather than just letting England take them all. Otherwise might as well have just left them enter the bid as an England bid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
They would have won it anyway as just an England bid given their only competition was Turkey(?) and Uefa are giving them nothing.
The FA are not especially popular within UEFA - part arrogance, part a reluctance to cosy up to whatever jerk is running the operation at the time. While UEFA want to encourage joint bids/discourage solo bids, otherwise only the same half dozen countries could ever host a 24 team event on their own - one of whom is Turkey, who UEFA really don't want to get it (even less popular than England!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
And of course England could host it on their own, but for the political (small "p") reasons above, roped in the other 4 Associations for their votes and their lobbying. (ROI also had the advantage of not being UK, but in the EU).
Can't see England, whose bid it effectively was, ever being happy to "allow" Scotland to have two venues, while the SFA had no bargaining power, since without England, there is/was no chance of the Euro's coming to Scotland. Nor can I see the SFA wanting to do Rugby any favours: i.e. should Scotland qualify, they'll be happy with playing their own games at Hampden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Realistically it is England's tournament (see my post above).Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
While the one stadium-per-city rules screws Wales, since they don't have another suitable stadium outside Cardiff; or ROI one outside Dublin, nor Scotland one outside Glasgow other than Murrayfield, which besides being Rugby, may not even meet all UEFA's very strict requirements.
I genuinely don't mean to seem "humble" in a Uriah Heap kind of way, but we (the other four) should be grateful that England gave us some of the cake, even if it is just a small slice. Or in NI's case, a few crumbs. If we're lucky.
I'd personally think it'd be a win for everyone if the Casement Park's games were moved to Croke Park. It's just an hour 45 mins from Belfast by car and 1 hour 15 mins from somewhere like Warrenpoint. Means if NI qualify, they could have an easily accessible stadium for their fans. Would also be easier for NI to hold onto training bases etc for teams, if there were more games on the island.
I understand the 1 stadium per city rule, but I reckon that's relatively movable, considering the unique circumstances. The fact it was shortlisted is also a sign of this - why would they shortlist 2 dublin stadia if they had no possibility at all of using Croke Park.
the only issue i can see is the amount of hotel beds - but i think the spill just spreads outwards - across the pale and maybe into Belfast as well, which is another positive for NI.
having read up on it, i don't think it's a Uefa rule at all or there's nothing that even indicates Uefa care about. Euro 2004 for example had 2 in Porto and 2 in Lisbon, comparable cities to Dublin
The bid decided to adopt it as a principal:
FAI CEO Jonathan Hill earlier explained that London aside, the bid had adopted a “one city, one stadium” approach.
He said: ‘In all major bid processes, you start with a short list of stadia, and this is whittled down to a final agreed list in order to give the bid the best chance of success and reflects the streamlined nature of the tournament.
‘This bid started with 14 stadia, and we now have our agreed final 10 which have been submitted "The bid, with the exemption of London, is based on a ‘one city, one stadia’ principle, and together we believe the list offers an array of superb stadia from across the UK and Ireland.
Beds is it ?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
You don't see that unionism up there dug in like their forefathers at the Somme not to play in Casement & managed to punt it into the long grass other side of the tournament, yet you think they'll roll up happily at HQ in Dublin instead ?
Picture a hurling final ending up at Windsor. Picture your county in it. It'd suck balls wouldn't it.
Casement will cost €400m (funding coming from UK gov + GAA + Irish gov). I can see why as a Unionist, I wouldn’t want my tax being spent on a GAA stadium. (We’ll skip past the complexities of Windsor and Ravenhill getting refurbished and redeveloped about a decade ago for far less money in a time when it was cheaper to build stadia).Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
That desire makes sense to me - but if I have the choice to drive 90 mins to see my team play vs paying probably £300, taking a flight to Birmingham etc etc - I’m driving every time.
If I had the choice of Ireland playing Windsor or Villa Stadium, I’m picking Windsor.
And as for Dublin, playing a hurling final in Windsor - I honestly wouldn’t care.
The little Englanders would probably prefer to spend the extra money to visit the motherland.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
A fair bit of political kite flying going on at the moment.
Firstly Páirc Uí Chaiomh - not a hope there will be any games there. That stadium was designed for hurling, with a bit of gaelic football and the odd rugby game or concert on the side. If they were wanting to build it to cover major international sporting events they should have built it in a completely different form than they did. But that was their choice to make - the stadium as built can't host Euros games and can't be turned into a venue that can host them without being pretty much rebuilt again. It's a complete non-starter.
Croke Park - could do the job alright. The Hill would probably not be used, but that still leaves over 70,000 seats, sizeable corporate and media facilities and plenty of premium areas. It wouldn't take a lot to have it up to UEFA standards and UEFA previously accepted a much smaller stadium in Portugal where one end was a rock face with no seats, so an empty Hill wouldn't be likely to make much difference, even if they rule out temporary seating (which was apparently fine for FIFA in Russia a few years ago). The two venues in a city thing could be overruled again I would imagine if the will was there to keep the games on the island.
However, the more likely outcome I would guess is that the games are just shifted across the existing venues without too much fuss. The compromise might end up being that Dublin gets two extra games at Lansdowne, rather than just one extra. Then maybe one each for Scotland, Wales and England (was it five the north were supposed to be getting?).
The bigger row will likely be about the qualification places, given there is currently scope for 1) a UEFA member auto qualifying that isn't hosting any games and 2) a UEFA member that isn't hosting any games being allocated a qualification place at the expense of one or more UEFA members that are hosting games.
Given that we are now down to four actual host members I would argue the best thing that could be done at this point is to allocate three host places (not unreasonable for a 24 team tournament) safe in the knowledge that everyone knows that England will qualify and therefore all members hosting games will be at the tournament.
If I was a nordie I would be going ballistic about this
Jesus think past your noses guys. We made 110m for an American college game a few weeks ago
If you have casement built get it locked in to the contract, that has to be used for the benefit of the all of Northern Ireland
So we've gone from NI's football matches being staged in a GAA stadium in Belfast, to NI's football matches being played in a GAA stadium in Dublin, incidentally the same city as will also be hosting games at the AVIVA?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Meanwhile, NI doesn't as yet really have a suitable training base (incidentally my own hope for a "legacy" from this tournament) for competing teams.
Take a step back and think again about what you're proposing...
"Unique circumstances"? Are we veering into "Team 33" territory here?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
As for the shortlist, that was drawn up by the five Associations, not UEFA - I don't blame the FAI for asking, but when Old Trafford, Anfield and Sunderland were rejected, what hope was there for Croke?
And look at it from UEFA's and the competing teams' and fans' pov. Do they really want to be away from the main action (i.e. GB) unless absolutely necessary? I mean, those ROI-based teams who qualify from their Group are either having to take flights/ferries to continue in the tournament, or decamp entirely to GB.
Meanwhile, if the one-stadium-per-city rule is "movable", then why weren't England entitled to have two venues in London - a city with twice the population of ROI, 7 x PL clubs, 5 x 30k+ stadia (plus Wembley and Twickenham), the most sophisticated urban transport system in the world after Tokyo, 5 x international airports and a rail link to the Continent. Oh and many more hotel beds than ROI and NI combined. Do you really imagine that UEFA are going to make an exception for FAI/Dublin?
Head in the sand stuff to think either Croke Park or Pairc Ui Chaoimh will get games.
There is no comparison between 2004 and 2028. For one thing, that tournament only had 16 teams. And for another, distances between the venues were far shorter than between Eng/Scot/Wales/NI/ROI. While to incorporate another couple of stadia in separate Portugese cities would have meant a 25-30k stadium in a city of fewer than 100k people, which may not even have had a f-t professional club previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Above all, the Portugese government paid an absolute fortune to a load of clubs to build new stadia or rebuild existing ones, so that UEFA appreciated the physical legacy that the tournament was providing - they weren't going to chance their arm by demanding that games be taken away from one of Sporting/Benfica or Porto/Boavista, to be staged instead in some provincial backwater in the middle of nowhere, were they?
And as for London, the FA wanted Wembley, which they own, for England games, but UEFA declined, since it would give them an "unfair advantage" to be in their "home" stadium. (Very few other major countries have a specific National Stadium where the NT plays all its games). Therefore they were told to choose another venue (Spurs), with Wembley kept in reserve for the Semi's and Final.
Sorry, have I stumbled onto politics.ie, or the Sinn Fein home page?Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Either way, that sort of garbage adds precisely nothing of value towards a debate which has otherwise been conducted respectfully and relevantly.
Why would any team want to use NI as a training base?
Do not believe that construction inflation accounts for increased costs from the original £77m agreed by the GAA, to the present £200m? £300m? £400m? being speculated at present. The major factor is the GAA demanding a build a shiny big, all-singing all-dancing super stadium which they themselves forecast would be filled to a 32k capacity for precisely one sporting event per year, the Ulster Senior Football Final. (That 32k figure was proposed long before the Euros were even considered and itself followed their original demand for 38k, before they were told that that would never pass H&S).Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
And even for construction inflation, whose fault was it that 14 years later, they haven't even put a spade in the ground at what is a derelict tip? (Clue: an organisation with the initials "G", "A" and "A").
It's not - or shouldn't be - anything to do with Unionism or Nationalism etc, not least since just as many Unionists aren't particularly interested in Football, many Nationalists aren't particularly interested in Gaelic games either. Rather it is to do with resources and priorities. And as a taxpayer, I can see no justification whatever in seeing my government handing over maybe £300m for a White Elephant like that. And I genuinely would say the same if they were to blow, say, £300m on Windsor.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
But now you bring football into it, consider this. When The Maze Stadium was (finally) binned, HMG agreed to hand over the £154m budget to build their own national/provincial stadia as follows. The GAA and IFA were to receive equal amounts i.e. £62m each, with Ulster Rugby to get £20m (to reflect their much lower participation rates etc).
The GAA decided to rebuild Casement for £77m (i.e. adding £15m from their own resources). While the IFA decided to spend £26m of HMG's funding on Windsor, with the remaining £36m to go towards sub-regional stadia throughout NI (it was widely believed that Glentoran and Derry City were to get the bulk, £10m each). HMG imposed a condition that this latter sum would not be released until Windsor/Casement/Ravenhill were completed first.
Which means that it's not just Casement/Andytown/Antrim which have suffered from the (avoidable) delay incurred by the GAA's incompetence, but NI's other football clubs too. Is anyone going to compensate them for construction inflation?
Which is before you get to the original principle that the IFA and GAA should both be treated equally - "parity of esteem" and all that. Meaning that if HMG were to come up with, say, an extra £100m for the GAA over and above the original £62m, then they should be honour bound to do the same for the IFA. Or at least, they should divide whatever etra sum they do have equally between the two bodies, with a smaller portion for Rugby while they're at it.
Sounds reasonable enough to me but how about this for an alternative? Instead of blowing £400m on Casement, the two governments could instead use it to buy every NI and ROI fan a return ticket with Ryanair to all our respective games - and still have enough left over for a drink at the bar, John Delaney-style!Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
It would be like going to Saipan or somewhere...oh wait!
There's probably going to be a handful of teams based in Ireland for the group stages, so I don't see why one of them couldn't be based up there. Of course if they're gifted a place (or qualify through the normal systems, unlikely as that may be), they could use it themselves.
How many facilities are there around Ireland at the moment that could facilitate an international squad for two weeks, including accommodation, training facilities, pitches etc all on one site? There's Carton House, but are there many more? Maybe Moyvalley or Adare Manor or somewhere? Most of those places are more built around golf clubs rather than team sports facilities.
I'm not sure that all of it should be somehow handed back etc - the GAA certainly deserves a reasonable (stress) amount to rebuild Casement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
But one of the GAA's justifications for building such a stadium was that it could also be used for non-sporting events, such as concerts and festivals. (They had to come up with something, I suppose, seeing as even by their their own admission, there was precious little justification for 38k/32k for sporting purposes).
Anyhow, just think of the implications of that:
1. This is public money being provided to compete with existing private or Council-owned events venues, which receive little or no subsidy themselves;
and
2. This money is coming from NI's sports budget and so should be used for sporting purposes only. Meaning any profit derived from non-sporting events should be returned to the donors at HMG/Stormont/Dublin etc, ideally to be redistributed amongst other sports, whom I'm sure would appreciate it.
Now, now, don't be asking inconvenient questions like that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Besides which, don't you know the Minister's reply? I have it handy here for just such occasions:
"Ah now, don't worry, sure it'll all be grand, just you wait and see..."
If teams playing out of Dublin are based in NI, that's potential investment lost in our infrastructure. The FAI surely don't want this. The goal should be to maximise the legacy impact of the tournament for our facilities, not share benefits with another association that isn't even hosting. Similar for the Welsh and Scottish FAs. And there practicalities involved - it is two different political jurisdications after all. If a team is playing in Dublin, why bother with any eventual hassle of being based in NI? And look at it from UEFA's and the competing teams' and fans' pov. Do they really want to be away from the main action unless absolutely necessary? I mean, those potential NI-based teams are either having to take flights/ferries/ lengthy cross-border bus journeys to partake in the tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Had a quick search and there seems to be few. Carton House as mentioned - the Irish rugby team base themselves there for extended camps so it will be a decent standard. Castleknock Hotel has a setup also and the Ireland football team stay there a lot. And Johnstown Estate is another. But probably still scope for one location like that in the north if there isn't anything of that type there already.
Fota Island?
When you put it like that...Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
But I would put it another way. Whenever UEFA and the various governments talk about these things, esp including the money being spent on them, they always bang on about "legacy".
Usually this legacy comes in the form of stadia, even though sometimes these are hardly very much used subsequently. Now had NI/IFA got a new 30k football stadium from the Euro's I'd have been delighted (obv), but that was never going to happen.
But we do desperately need a proper National Training Centre, so I hope the IFA are pushing HMG hard that if they (HMG) are going to provide an enhanced sum towards the GAA for Casement, then on the principle of equality etc, they could surely find a sum of, say, £30-40m to build such a Centre for Football. This would provide a genuine legacy for the game in NI for years to come, with the added bonus that some of the Euro28 teams could choose it as their base for a couple of weeks. (As others have said, Belfast is only a couple of hours by road or rail from Dublin, or even a 40 minutes flight to Liverpool, Manchester or Glasgow, from either of our two, yes two, international airports in the city!)
That's an inevitable outcome of Casement falling off the list of stadiums, and it goes beyond just football into the wider economy. Two stadiums in Ireland meant more teams based here, more requirement to develop facilities, more investment both in sport and the wider economy. There would definitely have been a fair bit of economic overspill into the republic as a result of a stadium being used in the north, given how small the north is in comparison - they were never going to be able to accommodate a whole group's worth of teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Which is probably why all the politicians are coming out now to at least make it look like they're trying to keep those games on the island, however unlikely that may be to come to pass.
Where do they meet up and train currently ahead of games, out of interest? For a tournament like Euro 2016, were they not based there at some period in a camp before the tournament, or was it all done somewhere in England before they went to France for the tournament itself?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
The FAI should not be sharing/ diluting the benefits of hosting the tournament with an association not hosting games - and especially in the context of its funding needs (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soc...over-15-years/)Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Any team using a training camp in NI, and playing out of Dublin, is investment in our facilities lost.
Yet you regularly see NI fans using Dublin for flights.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Surely it is for the teams themselves to determine where they stay/train, not the local Association(s)? And they will choose the facilities which best suit their needs, including travelling times.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
While your fears over teams using Belfast is entirely moot anyhow, since barring Jordanstown(?), there is probably nowhere feasible in NI. And if we were somehow to get an NTC that could do the job before 2028, that would only be as a result of funding from HMG, not Dublin/FAI.
Not for games in GB you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101