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Ruud Dokter pushed for a pyramid.
It works in pretty much every other country. We're the complete outliers here. This isn't a "some things work better in some places" issue. This is a "we're completely out of kilter with everyone else and suffering because of it" issue.
He wasn't taking his own advice!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
He wasn't able to suddenly magic up a pyramid because there's too many vested interests happy with the way things are.
Here is is quite literally saying "I’m here because I’ve come from a country with a big history in youth development. I’m not here to copy that system but I’m here to instil some principles of development, which are all over the world the same… you need to have a pyramid structure, one way or another."
With the internal politics around senior leagues and district leagues, why bother with the headache? The third tier circumvents the headache.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I like the ideal of every county having League of Ireland representation. I accept that this might be a GAA influenced mindset. The reality then is that cross county partnerships is the way to go in some regions.
Cavan Monaghan and Carlow Kilkenny are sensible partnerships looking beyond the county boundaries. Laois Offaly might do something similar in time. Sligo Rovers can draw on the Leitrim catchment area? Clare and North Tipperary are best linked to Treaty? South Tipperary then with Waterford?
I think this only leaves Meath and Roscommon. They can either follow the path of Kerry and Mayo or be content to be the catchment area for LoI clubs in neighbouring counties.
The third tier doesn't circumvent the headache. It just pushes it down a tier, but it's still very much there.
Why bother with the headache? Because it's what we need for clubs to develop and advance.
Honestly - the idea that every county should have an LOI club is just daft. Kildare has seven times the population of Leitrim. Why should each have an LOI club ? Just because ? Especially when there are no established clubs there to build one around. Tipperary has 4 times the population of Longford, yet couldn't sustain an LOI club for longer than a few seasons when it tried. And some counties have big geographical splits - e.g. like north and south Roscommon, north and south Tipperary, south and north-west Derry, north and south Down, north and south Leitrim etc. They're like 2 different worlds that just happen to inhabit the same county, but in reality have more to do with neighbouring counties than with the rest of their own county. People in places like Boyle in North Roscommon would tend towards Sligo Rovers. Anyone in the south of the county who is interested in LOI has Athlone. Folk in North Leitrim have Sligo Rovers.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Football is a predominantly urban sport. The unit around which to aspire to have sustainable club sshould therefore be significant towns and cities. But again, you can't just magic them up - they need to be developed out of existing clubs and structures. Especially in somewhere like Ireland where there are other sports and factors to take into consideration re the potential viability of senior football clubs.
On the flipside, there might be teams being held back because the jump from local junior league to the LOI First Division is just too big. So clubs who could become LOI teams become stagnant in there local leagues, as they cant develop any further, without a huge risk of trying to jump to Senior Football. Having a pyramid structure (which the Third Tier would be the first step to implement) would allow for these clubs to grow, and those soccer niches to be promoted.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Also, a big issue for these regional teams (which should be talked about too) is players and player standards. Any decent player would be snapped up by a professional club, while in is unlikely a local area (in nearly any area of Ireland) on its own could provide players for a competitive team. Regional teams like Monaghan and Longford often got lads from Dublin to play as they are at the required standard.... but then local fans get annoyed the team is full of Dubs. So even if there is abig enough supporter base to support two close teams, like FC Carlow and Kilkenny City, maybe the lack of local players of a good enough quality would greatly hurt both teams.
So that is a problem any future team, how to balance competition, money, and local quality together.
A third tier licence is far more achievable than a First Division licence. When a First Division club drops out, it can damage the LoI brand. A third tier that is a step out of the spotlight can have the space for teams to come and go more easily. An Irish solution for an Irish problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
"An Irish solution to an Irish problem" is a meaningless soundbite when the FAI's own head of Development is pointing out that literally everyone else does things a different way, and he really recommends we follow suit.
Once upon a time, Limerick changed their name to Limerick City and cut off the rest of the county?Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
For those of us with an ideal of county representation, I guess it is GAA influenced.
I do accept however that the football landscape is different. Every region is different too. There are clubs that represent a part of a city, clubs that represent a whole city/town and then there are some clubs that represent a broader region.
You are fully correct that you cannot magic up a club. Tralee Dynamos, Tullamore and Castlebar tried to develop in the A Championship and were then banished to the wilderness.
The Youth Leagues of Ireland are a game changer. The youth leagues are allowing non LoI entities to develop. These entities seem to have the acceptance of district clubs. If an existing club isn't willing to step up to senior level, the path is clear for a club to be formed for the region. It is an organic growth as opposed to trying to magic up a club.
If Kerry FC get into the league. When Mayo have players who are moving beyond U19 level, a Castlebar either steps up to senior or they might look at the Kerry FC model. Either route is feasible and both routes are practical. Kerry FC seems a sensible direction for Kerry. Castlebar might be a more sensible direction for Mayo. That'll be for the Mayo folk to decide.
Both EatYerGreens and legendz have sensible points, in that some counties like Tipp, Clare, and Laois evidently have no interest or intention of pursuing senior status, giving the disinclination to enter the underage leagues, but it is the best platform for Kildare, Cavan/Monaghan and Carlow/Kilkenny to pursue future ambitions, assuming, like Kerry, they eventually want their own adult set-up for local players.
Cavan/Monaghan underage setup is a total basket case, the whipping boys of the Northern section of the underage leagues, and will never become a senior setup.
I don't buy this idea that adopting the name 'city' meant that a guillotine came down between the club and the rest of the county. Firstly - clubs like Limerick have always had support from outside their own town, and even outside the county. Longford Town hasn't cut itself off from the county. People in Leitrim and Roscommon seem to have no issue supporting a team called Sligo. Folk from Tyrone and Donegal go to Derry City games. And so on. Also - the 'County' name didn't exactly do wonders for Kildare's support levels. So this is just a flaweed theory IMO. Secondly - Limerick (or more correctly, Pat Grace) changed name to Limerick City because Limerick United got embroiled in a messy court case.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
As a mnor aside, it is a tiny bit strange that there is no 'celtic' club in the LOI currently (I know there was one in Cork in the past). The north has a couple of 'Rangers' in its upper tiers, as you'd expect given where support for football in many towns there primarily comes from. I'm sure people from beyond Ireland would be surprised to hear there isn't a celtic playing somewhere in our senior game. So step up Castlebar :DQuote:
Originally Posted by legendz
I think it is wishful thinking that there is some kind of 'cheat code' that if a club is called County or City, it will automatically bring in fans.
I wouldn't write it off though completely. Its important to attach the club to somthing with cultural capital.
But it is important to note that soccer is not like any other sport in Ireland. Dublin City didnt work, Kildare County didnt work. There are other far more important aspects of running a club.
I'm awaiting Louth County's arrival on the scene and the inevitable crushing of Dundalk and Drogheda that will follow as fans desert them in droves to worship at the feet of the new entity.
It will go down as one of history's great losses that Irish Sea FC never got to prove that their's was the name that the barstooling fans have all been waiting for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa
Although I prefer the 'Wild Atlantic Wallys FC'.
Dublin Dons never got their opportunity either! 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
They could have merged with Irish Sea FC. To create the Dublin Don Quays....Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Very appropriate!! 🤣Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Ye remember yer chastising me about posts letting myself down?? Well even to jest at such things as the above is a low as it gets - put me off my tea you inconsiderate eh sad loser ffs like...Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
In truth Nesta I didn't even consider the effect that me floating the grisly spectre of Louth County could have on a Dundalk loyalist such as yourself. An oversight for which I am wholly contrite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
#WeeCountyWanderersQuote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
Well that at least, you may once again enter the towns of Dundalk and Drogheda without being a marked man!Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
It will be interesting to see what a fresh set of eyes makes of season alignment and how to introduce a pyramid structure.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2022...r-of-football/
Get out! Barred from Dundalk and Drogheda!! Which would be tragic for anyone..Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
People pay good money to get barred from better places.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Former FAI chief Bernard O'Byrne has ambitions of Meath club Athboy Celtic joining the league in the next 5 to 10 years. Very very optimistic on his part I must say...
https://www.meathchronicle.ie/2022/0...e-to-10-years/
We’ll have 2 Meath clubs then!!
I'd have thought Navan would be more feasible from a population point of view?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoss
Aye Drogheda being taken fully in to county Meath and off Louth's hands is long overdue!Quote:
Originally Posted by joey B
I would say that Athboy in LoI is as likely as Eircom Park!
You would think so, along with following the example of Cavan Monaghan, Carlow Kilkenny, Mayo, Kildare and Kerry in joining the youth leagues.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldfan
Thats a surprise move from BOB whats population of Athboy does anyone know?
Wikipedia says a massive 2,445.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinho II
Being from the town and having played for the club I can tell you it's very small - about 3k.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinho II
Absolutely ludicrous suggestion from BOB to be honest.
It's a good little local club and all but they shouldn't realistically ever join the LOI. Luckily I don't think anyone takes BOB seriously. They've got some good publicity recently because Jamie McGrath is from the town. He played with the club underage and became the 1st Meath lad to play competitively for Ireland (when he started against Portugal I think). His family have been heavily involved in the club over the years and his dad coached in the club for many years.
I've stated this before here but the only town in Meath that realistically would have the population to support a LOI team is Navan, but weirdly soccer doesn't have much support there. It's a staunchly Gaelic football and rugby town.
Trim could possibly be an option but it's much smaller than Navan - around 10k I think. Trim Celtic are a decent club though and well regarded in the area in terms of local goodwill. Imo there isn't a club in Navan that has that.
Ashbourne has exploded in population in recent decades and is now one of the biggest towns in the county, but similar to Navan, GAA and rugby are very strong there. I lived in Ashbourne near the gaa club for a few years and the amount of money they've poured into gaa facilities is phenomenal, so they've an enormous head start on any possible LOI club trying to get local support.
Alas, I can't really see a LOI club being formed in Meath any time soon, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
I know I said the league could do with a 'celtic' club, but this wasn't the route I had in mind :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TheBoss
This is a pure vanity project for Bernard O'Byrne. Whatever the opposite of the midas touch is, he appears to have it when it comes to Irish football. He was the head of FAI security on the night the English were left to merrily dismantle Lansdowne Road's collection of wooden seats/benches. And he was CEO of the FAI for the Eircom Park project, which he personally spearheaded. Neither he nor the FAI showed much interest in the LOI during his tenure as CEO, so it's ironic that it is now the height of his ambitions for Athboy.
He was CEO of Basketball Ireland until last year, so is clearly looking for something new to occupy his time and has hit upon the idea of propelling a village of 2,500 people to Irish football's top table. Like an Irish Gretna. I'd be fairly confident that we won't see Athboy Celtic in the LOI. Ever.
Hard to know with BO'B for sure but I think he was really making the point that clubs should show ambition, like Athboy in LoI why not. From what Ive read he hasnt really said that LoI is the actual target of the club. It would make sense if he approached a senior club to have Athboy affiliated in some way, even for coach education and seeing whats needed for national underage levels. Would BO'B sit quietly in the background in such a partnership though!?
To be honest, I don't think anyone in the town with an ounce of sense is taking this claim seriously.
More likely it's just a publicity stunt. Maybe he's trying to build on the recent Jamie McGrath publicity and drive up local support and memberships. (McGrath was the special guest a few weeks ago when they officially opened a new pitch in the town.)
Or maybe he's pushing for grants and thinks this type of claim will help his case or something.
As Nesta said, maybe he's just making a wider point that some clubs in the county should be more ambitious...
Are you seriously asking why a tiny non-league club in a village of 2,500 shouldn't realistically aspire to be in senior football ? Sustainability for a start...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
He is literally quoted in that article as the Club's Chairman saying : ""Personally, I would set a challenge to my club to have League of Ireland football in Athboy within a five to 10-year framework".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
No im not asking why a tiny non league club from a small village shouldnt aspire to a senior club. I was saying that possibly B'OB was talking about having ambition, and in his mind thats LoI, sure why not try and aim for the highest level. I wasnt stating any opinion though of course I think its daft. Further up the thread I said Athboy in LoI is as likely as Eircom Park - both being B'OB driven 'projects'.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Yes he did make that quote but the word 'personally' indicates that it is his personal thinking and not necessarily that of the club. As I said, its hard to know with B'OB but it could and probably is most likely to be 'a reach for the stars' metaphor, rather than a statement of actual policy or plan.
Personally, I would set a challenge for Dundalk to win the champions league within 5 or 10 years - Is this a wish, desire, a metaphor for thinking big, or an actual proactive plan of intent by a club (even if I was DFC's chairman)? I see it as think big, be ambitions, sure why not it could happen, probably wont but sure whats the harm in giving it a go on the off chance. We did get the Dundalk, a European team in Ireland, stuff which was the Peak 6 ambition and attempted (and failed due to one individual) policy. I dont think B'OB comments are the same even n relative terms being more wishlist stuff. But as I started with 'Its hard to know with B'OB.
I wonder if similar discussions happened about the likes of Eibar back when they decided to aim for La Liga, yes the pyramid structure facilitated this, but the then 5k capacity ground, an average of 2700 attendances, and a budget of €3mil - quite LoI sounding actually, was probably scoffed at and Its pretty likely that there were plenty of rolling of eyes at the time in Madrid and Barcelona; but they eventually got there and stayed for a good few seasons. So such dreaming can become a reality but obviously very very rare and LoI doesnt quite the same draw for dreamers than La Liga;)
If it was all just pure random speculation on your part, you could've said that at the start :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
I did! I said 'I think'......etc. But yeah my point(s) can get lost in rambling nature of my posts ;) Its arguably all pure random speculation that he was being literal and he has genuine aspirations to get Athboy in to LoI. Until there is a 5 or 10 year plan produced with the aim of being a senior club we are all speculating on his comments.