Qatar v Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 30th March 2021 - Friendly

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Pragmatism was giving us about 30% possession in most games. There was no future in conceding the ball for most of the game, putting 11 behind the ball and hoping to nick a lucky goal. That was where we were with McCarthy and later part of O'Neills tenure. Did we have something like 20% possession away to Wales when we won with the McClean goal? Possession is not everything but it at least gives us some sort of gameplan and a base to start from.

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Average seems to be around 30% - BBC(29%), SkySports(28.8%), Guardian(36%). Still terrible, but we had a gameplan to make the best use of the possession that we did have.
Under Kenny, we've had the majority of the possession against Luxembourg(63%-37%) Bulgaria at home(58-42) and away(62.3-37.7), Wales home(50.4%-49.6%) and away(51%-49%), and Finland at home(53.1%-47.9%). We scored one goal in total in those games. Against Serbia and Qatar, we had 44% and 45% of possession, respectively, and scored three goals. Should he set his teams up to make better use of the ball when we do have it with a more direct style of play?

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Kenny is trying to chance the entire culture of how we play, the problem is that he's probably trying to do too much too quickly with a brutal bunch of players. He does probably need to be a bit more pragmatic but again I go back to the likes of thr Slovakia game where we were very good and had more than enough chances to win the game comfortably if the players didn't make a balls of it, especially Hourihane at the end of the game. If we had won that game and had qualified there would be a very different opinion of Kenny by a lot of people.

I'm still in the camp of thinking he's right for the job but I absolutely admit he needs to see a bit of luck change and get some wins.

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Well, yeah. People have different opinions of managers who win games and qualify for tournaments to those that don't.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

t we had a gameplan to make the best use of the possession that we did have.

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Did we? My memories of that Wales game was that it was painful to watch, we were awful and were blessed to win.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Did we? My memories of that Wales game was that it was painful to watch, we were awful and were blessed to win.

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I would say that the result proves we did, yes.

My point is that we were lucky and that sort of set up was not sustainable. We were all on here for years talking about how crap were were to watch and constantly crying out for someone like Wes to be in the team so we could do something on the ball.

That's too short-sighted tets.

There's been a few games we've been God-awful in and scammed results. Serbia away and Germany at home stand out. Increasingly they were becoming anomalies though. Exceptions to the rule of poor results like 1-6 v Germany, 1-4 v Wales, and 1-0 v Gibraltar.

You can't just take the result as a definitive vindication of tactics and ignore the performance. That's effectively what has us sunk so low today

Things are desperate Lads and the Females ~ desperate.

The thing is that no one was saying we were in a good state, far from it! Expectations were low for any new manager coming in but to fail to come close to those low expectations is a really bad indictment of Kenny. We were in a bad situation and somehow it's got far worse.

There seems to be some fantastical belief that this is all just a minor blip on the road and all we have to do is wait until Kenny works his magic and we'll be playing like Brazil 1970 at the upcoming major championships. So far all we've seen is a manager unsure of his formation, tactics, starting line up, incapable of making effective substitutions or tactical changes who was given a lesson in organisation by Luxembourg. If this continues, when will people accept that the manager with the worst managerial record an Ireland manager has ever had, just might be one of the worst managers we've ever had?

This is has become a circular argument were people have strong opinions on both sides and we both continue to make the same arguments over and over again.

We can all agree that results have been awful, historically bad. Some of us think there are mitigating factors. There is no doubt that if we continue with these results to the end of campaign he will have to go, but if there are signs of progression then I think we stick with him

I wasn't talking about here. More about the media coverage and supporter reaction in general to this. I don't know why Kenny has got such an easy ride given the stick previous managers took with far more impressive results. Anyway, we'll just have to see how it goes. I hope I'm wrong and Kenny turns this thing around as it would be great for the future of the game here. If he does I'll streak across Lansdowne Road and bow down before Kenny and worship the messiah.

BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!!!

For me it's very simple, and there's some easy questions that guide whether I can take someone's point seriously or not.

If someone says that Kenny is dealing with the same squad that McCarthy, or ONeill for that matter, had, then you're comparing fleshlights with fannies, and I'll find it hard to take your opinion seriously. Older, worse for wear, not playing for clubs, out-of-form and completely inexperienced.

We are absolutely stuck in a circular argument, and it won't get any better any time soon. The man needs a win, and needs it desperately. For all the talk of 'we should have beaten Slovakia', it's not certain that we'd have beaten the north in the next game either.

Has Kenny under-performed? At this current vantage point, I'd have to say there's been elements that I'm unimpressed with.Overall though, no, I don't think he has. But for me the key point is would I be selecting players other than what he's selected - In the main no, perhaps the squad filler would have been a touch different here and there.
Would I have played a different style of football? No, because I don't think that we've the players to play the other style of football either.

Would I say Kenny is unlucky? Yes, I absolutely would, and the lucky-general tag - while a cliché - sometimes has more than just a hollow-ring to it. Mick absolutely got lucky away to Gibraltar, we were an absolute disgrace that night, and didn't deserve to win, but we did. Were we a disgrace against Luxembourg? No, but we didn't deserve to win either.
Against Gibraltar, Jeff scuffs one in, Randz pulls off a worldie and we win; against Luxembourg, Collins has a point blank effort stopped and Luxembourg blast in a hopeful one. It happens sometimes, and it's happening to Kenny teams.

Has Kenny been brave with some selections? I would say that he's been braver than any previous manager we've had. I think anyone that says he's been brave out of necessity, just brave, or just foolish, all have equal merit. But how often has a group of us here bemoaned the performance of McClean, Hendrick, Brady or Hourihane? Plenty. They've been analysed to death here, and to be fair to Kenny, he gave each of them sufficient chances to prove that things would be better, and not one of them proved him wrong. So what was he do? Continue to pick them, and hope for something better to come along?
I think there's not too many managers would have picked 3 cb's, dropped Duffy and played Seamus on the right of three - but it was absolutely the correct thing to do.

Ultimately, bar a few exceptions, the majority of the players he has integrated into the team (OShea, Kelleher, Cullen, Molumby, Knight, Connolly) are players who are going to be squad mainstays for the rest of the decade, and will become senior players by default by the start of the 2026 campaign. He's given them their grace period, and I just hope that he gets the time to see it come to fruition.
Look at McCarthy's reign. Had to overhaul an ageing squad in 96, but could still call on Alan Kelly, Roy Keane, Phil Babb, Steve Staunton, Denis Irwin, Gary Kelly, Andy Townsend, Niall Quinn, Alan McLoughlin, Jason McAteer, Mark Kennedy as established pros with either world cup finals experience or title-winning or cup-winners in his first year in charge. His first qualifying campaign was awful in his first year too - in a very very weak group (when compared with this one), and it wasn't until the start of his squads 3rd season (95/96, 96/97, 97-98) that it started to come together and those other players that he had to blood started to gel (Given, Cunningham, Breen, Connolly).

I personally would have liked to see Kenny bring his 21s group through to a finals first. That for me would have been ideal, and I've no doubt it would have happened. And as circumstances turned out, had Mick remained in the job, then we possibly would have qualified for Euro 2020. But I've no doubt in my mind, that if we'd qualified, and Mick was in charge - given the example of what we'd seen, and with no fans in attendance - that our results would equal Euro 2012 in terms of disappointment and performances - and then a rebuild would happen and we'd be in just as bad of a position ultimately. And just for clarity, I'm delighted we're not in Euro 2020, because we're not fit to be there.
I'd much prefer for us to muddle through this campaign [it will likely get worse (10, 7 & 6 points behind Portugal, Serbia & Luxembourg respectively), before it gets better], and have a good rattle at a potentially tough NL in 2022 (Ukraine, Norway, Ireland, Albania for example). Just like the June window is v important, so too is the Mar 2022 window.

And a lot of the onus comes back on the players too. A manager needs to have a group of players playing regular football ultimately. In that regard the summer is going to be crucial for many of our international talent pool. Because, like it or not, it either comes to fruition for us, or it doesn't, with the this style of football and with these types of players.

is there a way to block an individual poster on this site?

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Originally Posted by zero

is there a way to block an individual poster on this site?

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Click their name in a post, then "View profile".
In the profile screen, in the menu on the left, there's a link to "Add to ignore list".

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

For me it's very simple, and there's some easy questions that guide whether I can take someone's point seriously or not . . . .

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Your main points in a monumental post, as I see them, are as follows:

* For me it's very simple . . . whether I can take someone's point seriously or not.

* Has Kenny under-performed? No

* Would I have played a different style of football? No.

* Would I say Kenny is unlucky? Yes.

* Were we a disgrace against Luxembourg? No.

* Has Kenny been brave with some selections? Braver than any previous manager.

* Had Mick remained in the job, then we possibly would have qualified for Euro 2020 . . . I'm delighted we're not in Euro 2020.

* This campaign will likely get worse before it gets better . . .

* It either comes to fruition for us, or it doesn't.


There's a hint there as to why others may not take your opinions seriously.

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Originally Posted by Snapshot

There's a hint there as to why others may not take your opinions seriously.

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Here's a hint for you - Its not for you or anyone else to prescribe what other people think of other people's post. This is a discussion forum. If YOU disagree with a post then YOU say so and back up YOUR OWN argument accordingly.

Didn't really meant to open another chapter in the Stephen Kenny culture wars when i posted about the relative strengths of the Ireland v Lux teams...just pointing out where our squad is at at the moment, and the cavalry isn't riding over the hill anytime soon, judging by how our younger players are performing at club level right now.

A few of our players after the Lux game pointed out how embarrassing it was to lose to Lux at home (which it was), i just think its interesting that some of the Lux players are playing at a far higher level than our "embarrassed" players are (i.e. scoring goals in the Bundesliga rather than getting dropped by crappy Championship and League 1 teams). Hopefully some of our younger players can show the determination and work rate it requires to move their careers on, as some of these Lux players have.

I'm hoping things work out for Kenny, as i did for every Ireland manager, even the ones i never wanted getting the job. There's lots Kenny has done that i like, but he has made loads of mistakes as well (obvious one dropping our one high performing, vastly experienced, Prem League player in Coleman). Its clear at this stage he is working with the weakest squad that i can remember us having.

I'm not going to quote Kingdoms post but just to make a few points. I think it was you who agreed the time for excuses was over prior to the Luxembourg game. That was Kenny's first 'gimme' game according to yourself. Kenny's first game was less than a year after McCarthy against a very poor Bulgaria, this was the team he picked:

Randolph, Doherty, Egan, Duffy, Stevens, Hendrick, McCarthy, Hourihane, Connolly, Idah, O'Dowda. He had the luxary of dropping Coleman and had a strong bench. We scraped a 1-1 draw with an injury time set piece goal. That was really our first 'gimme' game under Kenny and it set the tone for what was to come.

Kenny's record is played 11, won 0, drew 5 and lost 6, scoring 4 goals in total. The worst managerial record in our history, if you don't think that's under performing then I really don't know what to say. You're basically saying that he can lose as many games as he wants and you'll back him.

Then you list our more excuses. When playing Luxembourg at home, you win, no excuses can cover up that shameful performance, full stop.

You were saying he had a desperate selection to pick from on one hand but then outlining a number of players who gained huge experience at their clubs between McCarthy's time and his on the other. OShea, Cullen, Molumby, Knight, Connolly. If anything, he has a better squad than McCarthy bar McGoldrick who he had for the Slovakia game and failed to qualify us. By the way, I most definitely would want to qualify for any major championship and McCarthy was very close, Kenny has got us knocked out after 2 games of this campaign.

You then make an argument for actually leaving McCarthy in charge! He has actually done a rebuilding job with Ireland before as you pointed out. His record was played 10, won 5, drew 4 and lost 1. Looking at it now, leaving him in charge instead of a manager out of his depth would have been the correct decision.

No guarantee we would have qualified with the u21's, Kenny lost away in Iceland but I agree he should have been left with underage players or in some development role, the senior job is out of his capabilities.

You then have got your excuses in early, you expect us to do disastrously for the rest of this campaign and then if we manage to get a draw against a big team or a win you can say Kenny is doing better than expected. That seems to be the direction his media pals are going also.

If he continues on with the awful performances and results we've seen up to date, then he has to go. There's no other campaign for him. 11 games is longer than McCarthy had in his latest spell. Staunton had 17 games. He has a cult following who will back him no matter what, that's great and all but we can't let ourselves drop down to 5th or 6th seeds and seriously damage the future of the game here. As time goes on, it looks more and more like we've appointed a flop. At some stage, even the Kenny worshipers will have to face up to it if the performances and results continue.

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Originally Posted by zero

is there a way to block an individual poster on this site?

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Kingdom? Theres a lot of nonsense talk, but I dont think thats a good idea. You don't get to follow threads properly if you go down that route.

You'd get as much information from the shopping channel whilst enjoying a good cup of tea.

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

If he continues on with the awful performances and results we've seen up to date, then he has to go. There's no other campaign for him. 11 games is longer than McCarthy had in his latest spell. Staunton had 17 games. He has a cult following who will back him no matter what, that's great and all but we can't let ourselves drop down to 5th or 6th seeds and seriously damage the future of the game here. As time goes on, it looks more and more like we've appointed a flop. At some stage, even the Kenny worshipers will have to face up to it if the performances and results continue.

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You;ve made a very good point, there seems to be an element in the "support" base, who keep throwing out the lines of "we dont deserve to be at a Euros", "i dont want us in a major competition", "we're building for the future". You're not building for the future by dropping down to 5th seeds, youre making it nigh on impossible for our "next" generation to qualify. We dont have a conveyor belt of players to step up, and no amount of underage structure and top coaching will change that. Spinning out the same record again and again is nonsensical, it contradicts the main point of your(not you personally said posters) argument.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

We dont have a conveyor belt of players to step up, and no amount of underage structure and top coaching will change that.

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Woah there. That's a huge statement. And I would argue it's nonsense too. Smaller countries than us are doing way, way better.

Improving things at underage absolutely can and will improve things. The Miguel Delaney article I've linked a number of times indicates this. You don't have to agree with it, but you really should provide some sort of argument behind a point as sweeping as that.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

We dont have a conveyor belt of players to step up, and no amount of underage structure and top coaching will change that

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Posher - ingredients do not make a recipe - alternative reality insight right there.

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Originally Posted by zero

is there a way to block an individual poster on this site?

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I'm sorry Zero. Please don't hit the block button. If my posts are so offensive that they are ruining your use of the forum, then I'll go back to hibernation, no problem.

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Originally Posted by Ram

Here's a hint for you - Its not for you or anyone else to prescribe what other people think of other people's post. This is a discussion forum. If YOU disagree with a post then YOU say so and back up YOUR OWN argument accordingly.

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to be fair to Snapshot, he's justified in that line - I did ask for it with my own post.

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Originally Posted by Snapshot

Your main points in a monumental post, as I see them, are as follows:
There's a hint there as to why others may not take your opinions seriously.

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I'm well used to not being taken seriously, so that's fine with me. I'm very secure in my own opinion - which I've bored people to death with, my post was merely trying to show that I can see both sides of the argument for/against SK, and that the debatable points aren't black and white - they are a whole spectrum of greys and creams.
I don't agree with those who blame him for all our ills, but I can appreciate the people who take the time to put that message into writing/posting.

Perhaps, we might as well go the Michael O’Neill route with Kenny. He turned it around after been very bad for quite a while !

Can we afford to do anything else and have we any good alternative. Ok, it may not work but sure there must have been plenty of people thinking the same about Michael O’Neill !

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

we'll be playing like Brazil 1970 at the upcoming major championships.

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we're already there.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Woah there. That's a huge statement. And I would argue it's nonsense too. Smaller countries than us are doing way, way better.

Improving things at underage absolutely can and will improve things. The Miguel Delaney article I've linked a number of times indicates this. You don't have to agree with it, but you really should provide some sort of argument behind a point as sweeping as that.

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I was a bit vague, I thought what was in my mind was pretty obvious :P What I mean is we're a small country, we can have the best underage structures providing the best possible coaching, and having really well drilled and football educated youngsters coming through, but we're never going to be able produce the talent to have a consistent number of international stars. I don't mean world class players here, I mean players playing consistently at the top end of the big leagues - lets hope the emphasis is moving away from Premier League only. The game is far too global, too big now, for us to be able produce the number of players consistently that we can have 11 top 10 , of the European leagues playing at any one time.

This is in no way saying we shouldn't be aiming to have the best coaching and structures in place.

**I hope this doesnt become a talent V natural ability debate.

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Posher - ingredients do not make a recipe - alternative reality insight right there.

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You need to crack a few eggs to make an omellete. Just don't crack mine.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I was a bit vague, I thought what was in my mind was pretty obvious :P What I mean is we're a small country, we can have the best underage structures providing the best possible coaching, and having really well drilled and football educated youngsters coming through, but we're never going to be able produce the talent to have a consistent number of international stars.

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I disagree. Smaller countries than us have great teams. Croatia are the obvious example. Portugal too. Even Iceland are doing much better than us with what - 7% of the population?

Yeah, we'll have a limit in the long-term, but there's no reason we shouldn't have players ready to step up whenever needed.

(I don't buy the "But the GAA/rugby" excuse. Other countries have other sports too)

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Here's a hint for you - Its not for you or anyone else to prescribe what other people think of other people's post. This is a discussion forum. If YOU disagree with a post then YOU say so and back up YOUR OWN argument accordingly.

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My post used a simple style device to highlight what I consider Kingdom's fanciful endorsement of Stephen Kenny. His measured reply is a few posts above. Ironically, your testy intervention renders you guilty of that which you accuse me.

Back on topic please, the Qatar game, the performance, and the result - remember, attack the post, not the poster
This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a general reminder of the forum rules.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Average seems to be around 30% - BBC(29%), SkySports(28.8%), Guardian(36%). Still terrible, but we had a gameplan to make the best use of the possession that we did have.
Under Kenny, we've had the majority of the possession against Luxembourg(63%-37%) Bulgaria at home(58-42) and away(62.3-37.7), Wales home(50.4%-49.6%) and away(51%-49%), and Finland at home(53.1%-47.9%). We scored one goal in total in those games. Against Serbia and Qatar, we had 44% and 45% of possession, respectively, and scored three goals. Should he set his teams up to make better use of the ball when we do have it with a more direct style of play?

Well, yeah. People have different opinions of managers who win games and qualify for tournaments to those that don't.

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weve got to keep this fellow as long as the covid situation is on. The irish public dont deserve this fellow, this is a result sport, I keep my words give this guy a 20 match tryout and then decide. The world cup qualies are over with that Lux result. ugly ugly and he is the only responsible for that because he sets the team strategy etc.

If we dont have the players yet just make two lines of 4 guys a 10 and a 9, the senior players will resign the ones like Coleman and James McCarthy.
All the choices he took were awful. The only one that worked was in one match Doherty as center back he played really good.

Long showed he should have started before Idah and the other guys.
O'shea is one I would try as center midfielder I think he would blossom there he has the height and all the attributes to play as a holding midfielder.

I cant type anymore, as your Kerr said on tv we cant keep on losing points and matches

Which of the midfielders against Serbia would you have replaced with O'Shea? Bearing in mind that O'Shea was playing in defence at the time.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Which of the midfielders against Serbia would you have replaced with O'Shea? Bearing in mind that O'Shea was playing in defence at the time.

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I already said my team if everyone is available.

Randolph
Coleman
Egan
Doherty
Stevens
James Mc Carthy
Dara o'Shea
Connor Ronan
Robinson
Long
Connolly (Maybe Manning there)

Kelleher
Sean McDermott
Lee O Connor
Duffy
lenihan
Clark
Cunningham
K.Long
Brady
Hendrick
McClean
Cullen
Molumby
Knight
Browne
McGrath
mcgeady
Scully
horgan
gallagher
odowda
hourihanen
Collins
Idah
Parrott

Probably cheating to put that many players out on the pitch at one time tbh

It might come to that if we're ever going to win again. I'd still drop McClean though.;)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Probably cheating to put that many players out on the pitch at one time tbh

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No, iam just saying my eleven. The others are reserves from the full squad. I like 3 at the back but we need some creativity there that we are lacking in midfield, that spark.

I am not afraid of playing players in different positions smart players can play two or 3 different poisitions on the pitch.


----------------Randolph-----------------------


Coleman------Egan-----Doherty-----Stevens

---------Dara O'Shea----James Mc---------

Robinson----------Ronan-----------Connolly/Manning

---------------Shane Long-----------------------

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