Arrrgh went to edit and I deleted my reply here. Can't be bothered again. Their model is not so one dimensional.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Arrrgh went to edit and I deleted my reply here. Can't be bothered again. Their model is not so one dimensional.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Come out lads - our resident 'expert' says its ok!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Not that it is much of an excuse but didn’t the Luxembourg manager rotate most of his team from the friendly against Qatar !
Two competitive games so close together was beyond us. I suppose this should not be a factor against Luxembourg but that is where we are now ! !
I think last night was worse. Liechtenstein was a freak result in a way - 40 shots and 20 corners or something like that. An inspired keeper and a ball that just wouldn't go in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trequartista20
It was bad - the infamous lack of a Plan B of course - but last night was worse in my view because we were so flat and forced what - one save out of the keeper? Luxembourg aren't Liechtenstein - though they did lose to them in a friendly last year - but the performance was worse for me
It is though. They've made bugger all money out of transfer fees and shot themselves in the foot by resigning those players for free, a sure-fire way to devalue your current squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
The Dundalk model is the quick-fix solution Irish football has been fixated on for decades (see Shels, Bohs and Drogs before them) It's bust.
I've read that a few times since last night. I'm a little surprised. I thought he did fine, and wasn't at fault for the goal, but he dropped the ball twice. I'd be very nervous playing him against Portugal, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelmusic
Bad results happen in football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trequartista20
McCarthy lost in Macedonia and was generally awful for a year or so but we stuck with him and reaped some bit of a reward. I hope we do the same with SK. I still think there is something there with this team and I think he can be a success. I thought we played well in Serbia and were unlucky in Slovakia. I think you can disregard the Nations League this time around. Managers need time. I hope he gets it anyway. Last night was a disaster but I think there is a little underestimating of the Luxemburg outfit everywhere. Its a bit disrespectful to them. I reckon there is another big result in them and lets see how Serbia fare in Azerbaijan after 2 big games in 3 days.
On the game I just think the injuries told on the team much more than the Serbian game. Lads like Cullen, Robinson and Browne are decent players but are just not consistent enough for international football. Went completely missing in the second half. others tried but there were too many gaps trying to piece together attacks and even defend cohesively. On the plus ledger O'Shea and Knight look like they are going to backbone the team into the future. I'm just not going to judge eras based on one bad night. I like the way SK has us playing and I think its more sustainable long term than the boot bollock and bite that sometimes gets us over the line on the international stage.
I find it gas people on social media taking such a keen interest in the FAI and the workings of underage footballing structures with "Diehard Liverpool fan" in their bio. We are all entitled to an opinion of course but its just grating on the back of a devastating night.
Yawn!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Players have to take criticism for the play.
Kenny has to take criticism for the tactics and formation.
As the game continued at 0-0 it was getting worse.
If Collins’ effort had gone in I think we’d have settled and been ok.
But the players probably got more nervy as it went on.
It’s dismal no matter which way you look a at it
I thought coleman saved his neck once as well. Like Kelleher though his feet are very good and good with keeping the ball moving. That seems to be the shift of focus for keepers nowadays, which to me is just an attribute, an important one, but the core fundamentals are shot stopping, good in the air etc. You don't see that in a game like last night, and you certainly don't recognise it after one game.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
When Coleman was fouled on the corner of the box in the second half, and Bazunu had come charging out? Definitely. If the forward had had a small bit more pace, he'd have beaten Coleman to the ball and then Bazunu was in no-man's-land.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
He had a solid game, but then Luxembourg weren't putting us under the pressure Serbia were. I think it was Stutts who said if we were losing to Luxembourg, we had more to worry about than our keeper, and he's right. The big problems were at the other end of the pitch.
Truth is, that Luxembourg game could have gone either way. It's a fine margin a lot of the time, and Kenny has been very unlucky. However, his record is atrocious. Cannot see any other options for manager at the moment. Stick with Kenny and, who knows, we may be more hopeful by this time next year. This has to be the lowest point, surely.
i didn't really notice that. If that's what it was its criminal. Knight likes to attack space going forward, Cullen does the neat and tidy stuff from deep. I thought each was really off colour. That'd explain why.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
It's a bit of both in my opinion. His body language and general demeanour was very positive and confident. And some of what he did he did very well. But I think he got lucky with the save with his foot. It was hit straight at where his foot was already planted having left a big gap between his legs. He came for a ball that was never his to come for (Coleman bailed him out) and he nearly got done like a kipper from that direct free kick in the second half where he had positioned himself for a cross. Better execution and he'd have had as much egg on his face as Travers had on Wednesday. It was still a promising debut though. He looks like he thinks he belongs out there. I don't think Travers did.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
In fairness we have three great possibilities on the goalkeeping front. We would want to be very unlucky for one of them Not to become a Good Class of a Goal-Keeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
You should bother Paul. You really should.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Who cares about losing folks? We aren’t going to Qat_ar anyway let us embrace defeat and get our quote of suffering out of the way now.
Glad to see names from the past being mentioned by someone earlier - Lawrenson, Beglin, Whelan. Because we really need to go back in history to try to solve the current problems. Hopefully, a few on here can remember back to the Johnny Giles era. I remember standing on the terraces at Lansdowne and cursing Giles. My angst was due to Giles's penchant for playing possession football or trying to at least. We were slow and deliberate and other continental sides were years ahead of us in their development. Giles knew what he wanted to do, but could not implement his plan and no manager since has tried to get an Irish team to play proper football. That is until Stephen Kenny, 45 years later. Looks like Kenny will fail just like Giles. In my opinion, the reason neither man can implement possession football in their teams is that our players have never been taught technique and close control in crowded areas of the pitch, because there was no Irish coach ever taught that himself and consequently he could not teach that to his players. And the 64K question is, what Irish coach today is versed in those methods? Answer there isn't anybody. I have offered a solution on here for many years, and that is for the FAI to employ several developmental coaches for our kids, from areas that have historically played proper constructive football (South America for example). Stephen Kenny may not be long more in the job, but ultimately he is a lot smarter than most fans who keep calling for a change of manager and totally ignore the problems which beset Irish football.
The thing I don't understand though is how did Kenny manage it with Dundalk against better sides in Europe? Or how did UCD manage it against better sides in Europe? There's a clip from our game in Bratislava where we put together 23 successive passes over two minutes and very nearly scored at the end of it. That's a part-time team against a team of internationals (albeit down to ten men) Why can't the full-time national team manage it against what should, on paper anyway, be slightly weaker opposition?
Are our players too pigeon-holed in England as strong defender, midfield enforcer, etc?
7 and ½ years ago Norn Iron lost 3 2 to Luxembourg. 2 years later they qualified for the Euros. Did he go 18 games without a win or something after he took over?
My immediate thoughts on waking up this morning is I don't see that changing the manager will help this time. I think this result has been coming for a while. McCarthy got out of jail away to Gibraltar in a terrible performance against a much worse team. Not to excuse it, but this is a Luxembourg team that drew with France in Paris and have players playing at decent clubs around Europe. They are not the butcher, baker and candlestick maker players that they used to be.
That being said I can't get over the substitutions last night. This is where Kenny lost me. But it also shows that we absolutely 100% have to move on from the more "experienced" players. McClean, Brady and Long were all disgraceful when they came on, as was Hendrick against Serbia. We need to cut bait with these players now. This means we are going to have to go with players who are not ready and some who might never be. Wales did this with players pulled from youth and reserve teams in the hope that the international experience will help them at club level. We have a bumpy road ahead but we have no choice now. These so called experienced players have failed under multiple managers.
I
Luxembourg followed up that draw with France by losing 8-0 to Sweden in their very next game. Yes, they have improved, but they still concede goals - two clean sheets in their previous twenty games - and we never looked like scoring against them.
I mentioned Kenny's reluctance to use substitutes in an episode of the podcast, the majority under his reign have come after the 80th minute, and again last night when we hadn't scored and didn't look like scoring, Parrott and Molumby didn't come on until the 88th minute.
Collins was unlucky not to score . Browne should have scored with what was a great chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Should Long have crossed that ball very late in the game. The TV did not replay that Long “ effort “ ( which was probably lucky for Long ). On one view it looked awful play from Long. Long and McClean did not produce much. Its a pity that McClean cannot cross a ball ~ he is hardly going to start now ?
Do some of our players get carried away with themselves after reaching a certain level ? I can never understand how Aiden McGeady never got better at crossing the ball or protecting possession. Really, How can a full time professional not improve these sort of weakness’s in their game. I am just using McGeady as an example. Do some of our players just think they have made it and not improve. I would say that Roy Keane’s Passing improved a lot after he went to Man Utd. The truly good / great players keep trying to improve all the time. Is there something in the Irish psyche ( generally, not everyone ) that just does not commit to further improvement ?
Serbia lose or drop points away to Azerbaijan, Portugal and we beat them then we’re still in this by a long way.
I'm not sure Collins could have done much more with that chance. He anticipated the cross and got a good contact. The keeper got a bit lucky as the ball just hit him as he was trying to recover his position. To score Colins would have needed to glance the ball towards the far post which is hard when you're diving in the way he did.
That late Long chance: had he squared it across the 6 yard box for Collins I'm pretty sure Collins was offside.
A lucky save by the goalkeeper but one that goalkeepers get credit for. I suppose goalkeepers get blamed for a lot so they are going to claim lucky saves as brilliance = they might as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Cheers for clearing that up about Long !
Not sure if you're being a smartarse towards me, but chill out mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
I mentioned those three players in the context of it being said that it's harder for Irish players to break through now than then. In my opinion, that isn't the case. Bob Paisley and the boot room knew great players, no more than Pep or Jurgen Klopp today would.
We aren't producing players of that quality anymore, but if we had a conveyor belt of Jason Knight quality coming through every year, I would be very happy. That would eventually make us a good side.
We need to look at similar nations and see what they are doing and how we can having something more sustainable than hoping for a decent crop once every decade or hoping that Troy Parrott, Evan Ferguson or Zefi can be top class to keep us competitive. The Shamrock Rovers and Bohs academy looks sustainable, in that the quality of players is very good coming through from what I've seen. That should positively impact the league and ultimately the national team.
Wasn't Luxembourg's win last night their first competitive away victory for 13 years? They're only just in top 100 nations in FIFA's rankings.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
They also had more shots on target than us.
The more one thinks about at this the worse it looks.
Didn't take long to check this and minority is the word you are looking for. Kenny has made 44 substitutions, of which 33 were before the 80th minute and 11 after the 80th. 25% of substitutions are after the 80th minute.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
I’m still in shock at how bad we were last night.
I think that result hurts me more than the 5-2 versus Cyprus. We still had some good players back in 2006 and there was always a hope that bringing in a better manager could fix things.
Now?
I fear we are going to be in the wilderness for a long time.
The senior players have regressed, the youngsters aren’t really making any waves at club level and we are left with a coaching team that seem to be completely out of their depth at this level. The FAI doesn’t have a pot to pi$$ in so we are probably stuck with them until 2024.
Absolutely correct Razor. This result has indeed been coming for a long time (how many times have we been played off the park by so called inferior nations under Mick, MON and Trap). And changing the manager will absolutely not help because it hasn't helped all those times we've tried it. The barometer for me are two nations of similar ranking - Finland and Iceland. Both came to the Aviva in recent times and played us off the park. How did they improve so much while we regressed? That's the question we need to be asking ourslves. What did they do that we didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I agree with this. There's little to lose now. Realistically, qualification already looks beyond us.
A coaching team that are out of their depth? In what way? Stephen Kenny has been successful at most managerial stints he's been involved with and almost made history with the U-21's. Anthony Barry is so well thought of in coaching that Chelsea sees fit to have him train their players. I think you need to turn your attention to the players. Apart from Coleman who has had a great career at Everton and Brady and Long who've enjoyed a modicum of success at their clubs, who on the pitch last night could be tagged as being a success in their playing careers? If you want to say that Kenny does not have the respect of the players, that's another story, but neither he nor Barry are out of their depth with this mediocre bunch of players.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
Not being a smartarse. Just took your cue from players you mentioned in a bygone era to compare Johnny Giles's style and ambitions to what Kenny is doing now.
Best post of the lot! You are so right - we cannot expect other countries to develop our talent. We need to do it ourselves. That's the starting point and always has been. Our domestic clubs should have been doing this decades ago but, as you say, we have a 19th century system in place. Think Croatia (population 4 million) Denmark (5 million). It can be done by smaller nations if the coaching system is right.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
These countries benefit from having relatively well supported domestic leagues with regular qualification to UEFA competitions. It's been said a million times but if Irish people don't watch Irish football we're always going to be dependent on the UK to bring our players throughQuote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
MON and Trap used to blame the quality of the players at their disposal. The likes of Andrews were quick to judge those statements & stick the boot in. I remember him going on a rant after one of our games 2 or 3 years ago- the players didn’t know what they were doing, they didn’t know their roles etc etc. Well we looked clueless last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Good luck to Barry, Lampard brought him into their set up last summer. Tuchel might have other ideas once the season ends. I hope he is a good coach and he improves us. He’s not been long since with the Irish set up so too early to judge but Andrews is the assistant manager & in post from very early on. Based on what has been served up so far do they look like they belong at this level?
Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
Crowds in Croatia are very similar to here.
What they do benefit from is significant transfer fee income caused by (a) good coaching and (b) not selling players at 16
Both those factors help drive extra European income of course
Denmark’s domestic TV deal is huge. I don’t know how they afford it. There isn’t GAA to compete with for players, resources etc and pro rugby also for crowds and tv money. And Denmark also plays handball which in my opinion is great for teaching the spatial awareness needed for football. Not to mention an economic model that values public sector and sport.
Fair enough Mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
I think the Irish team is a poisoned chalice of a job. Too many fans remember when we were highly competitive with a team full of top class players. Our expectations are inflated so much, although I do think that even with such a mediocre bunch, we should be able to beat Luxemburg. One and a bit good performances in his reign - Slovakia we were very good and maybe a good 20 minutes or so against Serbia just isn't good enough.
What coaching?Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Let's get real. 90% of schoolboy coaching in Ireland, is done by parents who
a. are looking after their own kids
or
b. begged to do it by clubs because they've no one else to do it.
In many cases, a coach gets 1 hr a week for half the year on an astro pitch, where the first ten minutes is putting down cones for drills, and the last five minutes is picking them up again.
Then you have the mini Jose Mourinhos.. lads who watch the Sky Sport analysis on Monday Night Football.. and try to implement it with a pile of under 10's on Wednesday night.
I was at one club, where a lunatic of a coach brought in an u12 girls team, 10/11 y olds remember, to watch a tactical analysis of Real Madrid v Barca the weekend before.
Then we have the Kennedy Cup regime.. players picked on the basis of what club they play with.. or don't
Coaches from bigger clubs getting involved, so they can scout and cherry pick players from smaller clubs. Smaller clubs not sending players to Kennedy Cup trials because they don't want them cherry picked
I'll stop now, because this is probably for a different thread
But cut out talking about underage coaching in Ireland