Slovakia were poor, but Bosnia looked very decent.
Slovakia were poor, but Bosnia looked very decent.
They are very, very limited though, wouldn't you agree? But it's amazing what a new manager can do just by getting a team organised. It will be interesting to see how they get on in Cardiff tomorrow, might be a better gauge of how good or bad our result/performance was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
So then... how does SK turn all of that into a team that can win in Slovakia in a month's time and get us to the playoff final? I think the answer is that he probably doesn't to be honest, but he needs to find a functioning team and game plan in the next four weeks to at least give us a chance.
In terms of setup he is, as expected, wedded to a 4-3-3 type formation so there is little chance of him changing that to a 3-5-2 or any other formation for the playoff game. I do think he needs to tweak the setup down the right hand side though, especially if Doherty is going to continue in the team. We have also left our centre forward looking very isolated in the last two games - we really need a second forward in there to offer some support in attack.
I would want us to look at something like this:
----------------Randolph---------------
-----------Duffy-----Egan-----Stevens
Doherty--------------------------------
----------Arter-----McCarthy----------
-----------------Brady------------------
--------Long---McGoldrick---Connolly
It looks a bit lopsided, but basically the idea is that you keep the 4-3-3 but in attack you give Doherty (or Coleman) the space to bomb up and down the right flank all game by not playing an out-and-out right wing forward, where O'Dowda has played the last two games. It's a bit of a problem position for us anyway, but I'm starting to think we don't actually need anyone there in any case, O'Dowda was more in the way at times tonight than anything else.
Instead you play someone like Long as a second forward to make sure your centre forward isn't as isolated as Idah has been for the last two games. Having the second forward also helps as McGoldrick will likely be up there and he likes to drift back and get involved in possession in midfield throughout the game.
In defence you need Stevens to stay back and tuck in alongside the centre backs to help cover the space when Doherty goes forward, Stevens was hopeless going forward tonight anyway so no big loss there. Also at least one of the midfielders needs to sit deep to protect against the counter attacks we have been picked off with the last two games. The players we pick, especially in midfield, could change depending on who starts the season well at club level, we have six or seven realistic central midfield options at the moment with nobody standing out unfortunately - the three I have gone for there are just examples to fill the positions.
Hopefully giving more space to allow us to attack from right back would also build a bit more energy into our play, at the moment we look like we are trying to force a setup that doesn't suit the players we have and they don't seem to be able to pass the ball quickly enough to create any openings. So I think we have to try something different against Slovakia to have any chance of causing what would, at this point, be a shock result.
Are we really good enough to play Three Forwards. I don’t think so. Your Midfield would want to have a few Frighteners ( to the Opposition ) to be playing Three Forwards !
Better Midfielders would have a field day against us with that system.
Yes, a recurring theme in Irish football is that we get outnumbered in the centre of the park by teams playing with three central midfielders.
SK doesn't get it either, it seems. A shame.
4-3-3 isn't the only way to play nice football.
I don't get it. What's your suggestion? Play four central midfielders?Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
4-2-3-1
No matter what the formation, players have to be clued in, but 4231 is blatantly obvious to try for a new manager for a team like ours. Our starting point is midfield and cover for the back 4. We won't win anything with 433, never mind playing debutants like Molumby in an important competitive game next month as one of three midfielders.
Taylor made hay in midfield yesterday, exploiting gaps, making runs. and eventually setting up the goal.
The future for this team is to beat Slovakia.
Is there really a great deal of difference between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3?
The two wide men push up a little bit and the behind the striker midfielder drops back a little bit and that 4-2-3-1 is a 4-3-3 anyway.
Our Midfield is no way good enough for the luxury of there forwards. They would need to be three exceptional good midfielders for that. We don’t have midfielders of that quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
A Variation of 4-2-2-1-1 with us using our good attacking Full Backs as we happen to have good attacking Full backs. But it seems that you need very well drilled teams to have attacking full backs ( wing backs and can it be done at International Football with the time available )
There was a bit of a reaction pre-match to our whole midfield being 'dropped', but realistically I think McCarthy & Hendrick were shoe-ins for Slovakia regardless of what happened last night, and probably safer still now. I feel Hourihane may be less sure of his place, Arter might just have done enough to get in instead.
It's a little concerning that SK is picking a team to suit his preferred system, rather than choosing a system to suit his players. Even if 4-3-3 does turn out to be the way to go, he'll need to be more flexible than he appears at the moment, whether that's a tweak within a match or an adjustment for different types of opposition.
He has said he's not married to any particular system though, so time will tell, very early days obviously.
I think we have some very decent midfielders, but yes, teams that have successfully pulled off 4-3-3 at the highest level would be the likes of Ajax last season, who had Frenkie de Jong in midfield, who is a step above our best midfielders. Or Barcelona in 2011, where Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets in midfield did the work of five players.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
This isn't to say I think our players are bad. I think they are capable of playing very good football, and that potential showed for many parts of the Bulgaria match. In that way, I don't mind 4-3-3 being a long-term target for Irish youth and senior teams to strive for. Morten Olsen implemented it across all age levels of football in Denmark, and it really worked out well for them. But it might be a bit too soon for us. And, as I said, we can't afford to play a system where we have to drop one of Coleman or Doherty. World class Irish players don't grow on trees...
Didn’t Germany move Lahm to midfield successfully for a few years. Ok none of our full backs are Lahm ! It will be interesting to see how Coleman goes this year. If he returns to form it would seem stage that a relative small footballing country like Ireland cannot make good use of Coleman and Doherty.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
Yeah I was saying on the Finland thread that they're just different nuances of the same thing but they require slightly different types of player, or at least slightly different roles are given to the same players.Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWA
Happens all the time. Dwight Yorke played midfield for Trinidad & Tobago. I myself would have played Damien Duff as a roaming attacking midfielder. If he was Croatian it's possible he would have been moulded like a Modric...Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Could Coleman play as 1 of two screeners in front of the back four and these screeners could fill in for the attacking full backs. Surely Coleman would have enough of a defensive mindset to do that ? Ok who would be the other one ?Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
Ya i felt like watching them yesterday they were even better at it than against us. The georgian has them playing like Ireland under Trap. He even reminds me of him looking at the sideline. And just like Traps Ireland they have very little interest in getting up the pitch or trying to score.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I would say, at this stage, the future of this team is to beat Slovakia.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
If we didnt win the next game then i think there would be forgiveness. But 2 losses in a row and effectively a get out of jail draw in the first 3 games, is not going to endear to the Irish footballing public, by that then the media. Players might themselves start to doubt the whole approach.
I asked this in another forum. Exactly what i was wondering too. Hes quick over a couple of yards, and hes pacey, tenacious, and not easily beaten off the ball, can receive in tight spaces and still not be dispossessed(switzerland exception), hes also a very good tackler generally.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Not to say it’s the same calibre of player we’re talking about here, but I can understand if Kenny is reluctant to experiment too extremely with a Coleman in midfield approach given what happened with Cyrus Christie during the O’Neill era.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
That said given our problems with finding a defensive midfielder and the real benefit of getting both Coleman and Doherty on the pitch, I’d love to see it tried out at some point, in the Nations League perhaps or a friendly (will those ever come back?).
For me it's an obvious experiment to try. He can cover for Doherty if he bombs forward. We get the best of Doherty going forward and the best of Coleman defensively. It also keeps the same formation and system that Kenny seems strongly about.
Might as well have a guess at team selection after what we've seen. I think it'll be 4-3-3 again, no point spending this camp getting used to it if it's not the planned formation for Slovakia. I think he'll pick players who are getting game time, it was obvious from the two games that the middle three in particular will need to be playing every week. Of the options, I'd say Arter, Hendrick and McCarthy might be in pole position. Brady for all the nice flashes left us badly exposed defensively and died a death. I saw a position chart at half time and Brady, Connolly and Stevens were on top of each other and very advanced, it explained the big hole behind Brady that was exposed a few times in the first half an hour. Jack Byrne might come into consideration, offers something different in terms of unlocking a defense, allegedly carrying a niggle and Rovers had a huge game at the weekend so might explain his absence this time around.
The back four and keeper, the only real dilemma is likely to be Doherty or Coleman. Will Coleman start for Everton, if so I have a suspicion he might get back in for the Slovakia game. He offers more solidity defensively and can still get up the pitch when needed.
Front three is probably the most unpredictable. Connolly has probably done enough to be sure of a start, especially if he starts the season well. McGoldrick is a very different forward to Idah, but possible offers something that we're missing in the midfield in terms of ability to pick open a defense. Robinson made an impact when introduced, so maybe Connolly, McGoldrick, Robinson the favorites now, but Long and Idah wouldn't be too far away and again, playing time and form will be important. Does Obafemi find a way in if he's scoring and playing in the opening weeks of the season? He might work alongside McGoldrick if there's a midfielder like O'Dowda or Byrne in the third forward role?
Likely team;
Randolph
Coleman
Duffy
Egan
Stevens
McCarthy
Arter
Hendrick
Robinson
McGoldrick
Connolly
Options; Doherty, Molumby, Hourihane, Idah, O'Dowda, Long, Obafemi, Byrne
Interesting passinginterest, i was the only one to comment on here about players being bunched in small areas further up on the field, and now you've said that there was a player chart shown at half time( i am not aware but would like to see it) that showed them bunched. It was anathema to our attacking flow and options. THey looked clueless. That suggests lack of understanding and preparation in training.
Agree re brady that ball he thought was going out he just left and didnt even bother to follow the finnish runner - who subsequently kept it in.
I’d like to see it tried somewhere along the line. The Germans had great success for a few years when they put Lahm in midfield . Slightly off topic. I thought Lahm should have played on a bit longer for the Germans.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
30 is past it in Germany, unless you're a keeper or a 6 foot 7 forward!
It was a retweet around half time by a jouro type as far as I can remember, sorry I didn't follow the account that tweeted it and now I can't find it. I do enjoy some stats and visualisations!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
There is a case that the players are better suited to 352.
Duffy and Egan are used to plying 3 at the back at club level.
The two full backs play as wingbacks at club level.
There already is a three man midfield.
McGoldrick and Connolly play 2 up front at club level.
This would get our most dangerous player Connolly into the penalty box instead stuck out wide.
Coleman could come in as the third centre half on the right.
We don't have to find the defensive midfielder we simply don't have.
Obafemi can now be an option as a second striker. Kenny didn't think he was an option out wide or had the physicality to play in the middle on his own.
Something like
-----------------Randolph----------------
--------Coleman - Egan - Duffy---------
Doherty--------McCarthy-------Stevens
----------Hendrick------Brady-----------
--------Mc Goldrick---Connolly----------
I like the team but dont know about Connolly yet. I think of Long...better plus another number 9 from the bench. I agree with the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by eekers
but I think he is gonna play a back 4.
-------------------------randolph--------------------
coleman----------duffy-----------egan-------stevens
--------hendrick------mccarthy--------brady/arter
S.Long/Robinson--------mcgoldrick-----connolly/mcclean
https://www.google.com/amp/s/extra.i...-kenny-era/amp
Everytime I see or hear from Noel King I just want to shout "KNACKER"!!
squad expected according to games and SK taste
Randolph
Travers
O'Hara/Kelleher
Coleman
Duffy
Long
Lenihan/Clark
Williams
Stevens
Egan
Arter
Doherty
McCarthy
Hendrick
Hourihane
Cullen/Molumby
Byrne
Brady
Long
McClean
Robinson/Odowda
McGoldrick
Connolly
Collins/Idah
I like Noel King and he was my coach many moons ago. But he is clearly wrong in this instance. Those people who are knocking Stephen Kenny need to ask themselves one simple question. How the hell did Finland get so good, so good that they could play us off the park? And if they can do it, can we not do it? So give Stephen Kenny time, plenty of time.
I’ve met Noel King a number of times over the last decade and on a personal level have found him a nice person and someone who cares about football in ireland...
Saying that, this strikes me as him waiting for 2 years to dig the knife. When people compared how Stephen fared as manager of the 21s to Noel, there was natural criticism of King.
Seems to me like King was waiting for the first opportunity to question Kenny’s attributes. Considering King is an employee of the FAI, does him authoring this piece not seem a little questionable?
If I was the person signing his cheques, I’d have a few words with him...
I think Noel King left the FAI in June
His track record with the u21s was hysterically bad. Any stats on this very welcome as I need a laugh
With Slovakia on the horizon, I am looking forward to Tets stats from the weekend. I think this could be one of the best weekends in a while for Irish starters. 12 players appeared last weekend. I think 10 players have started already this this game week and there could be up to 4 starters tonight in Villa v Sheffield United.
Starters: Coleman, Robinson, O'Shea, McCarthy, Doherty, Hendrick, Connolly, Long, Brady, Dunne.
Subs: Long and Smallbone off the bench for Southampton.
You need to maybe have a look at that behaviourQuote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Fair enough. The phase was wrong and inappropriate but he was all the was wrong with the FAI and company man with no ability
Hourihane, Egan, Stevens and McGoldrick all start. 14 Irish starters this weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
I know Kenny would never say it, but its kinda annoying that we have to be at this stage now when any manager of the previous decade would have used that as their first line of defence. I'm sure it would have then moved to, we dont have the players in the top 6. Like international football is only made up of top 6 players.