Republic of Ireland V Serbia - Wednesday, 5th March 2014 - Friendly

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

People tend to blame the maligned players for things that go wrong and not give them credit for what they do right. Ward played well tonight apart from a couple of mistakes he made trying to pass the ball short instead of play hoofball, yet nevertheless if you ask people about who played badly there'll always be a few who tell you all about how Ward was hoofing it all night long. Coleman had a horrible game tonight, as bad as any game Ward has ever had for Ireland, but he'll be excused because of his past record yet Ward will be judged extra harshly.

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The thing is you know its a one off with Coleman, with Ward you know you will get the same hoof time and again, he made one good read to cut out the piece of play from the free kick and tracked well tonight, but he offers nothing more or close towilson on the left - and wilson has proven to be no great shakes there. Ward will be judged on what Ward does, whether or not Coleman played well or not and as said many times Coleman was woeful both halves. Stutts lost a lot of credibility on this forum with his Coleman is Class statement, will take both a long time to recover from their performances. I mentioned in the past how coleman too often plays it out of tight positions but he always gets away with it, yesterday he didnt, how many times have we seen him do that and get out of trouble? Its a bit risky thing to be doing really, and yesterday he got caught out, but people would normally have said great play by coleman - its a very fine line isn't it?

Relax! It's early doors, we could of been 3 up in the 1st half, goals change games as they say.

In any game of football if you don't take your chances then you risk letting the other side back into the game.

That's why clubs pay big money for goal scorers.
At international level you have to use what's available, we don't have another Robbie Keane waiting in the wings so we will risk paying the price for not taking our chances in most games.

Like I said, let's just relax and see where the next few games takes us and then look ahead to the qualifiers.

We may all realise that Mr Trapattoni wasn't as bad as the Irish media tried to make out after all.

In MON we trust.

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Originally Posted by Roberto

Anyone notice McClean giving Coleman an earful when he failed to play a ball over the top opting instead to play a martinez style short pass. McClean's touch may be poor but not as bad as his shooting. One thing you can't fault the guy for though is effort.

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Not much effort, holding his head, after the Serb got round him easy enough for their first goal. Embarrassing:p

Forde (6) - Did pretty much all that was asked of him. Could have been embarrassed with that curling in-swinger but recovered brilliantly.

Coleman (3) - Really bad night all round. At fault for both goals and generally sloppy. Not the usual outlet going forward either.

Keogh (5) - Did some good things but a tough second half. Massive step up but the experience should do him good.

Wilson (7) - Showed signs of real quality and leadership. His best in green for some time.

Ward (5) - Unlike Keogh, there's no lack of experience here but no signs of improvement either. Mixes in the odd good moment but overall a liability.

McClean (6) - Great enthusiasm and effort, a shame he doesn't really have the skill set to match. Could be better utilised as a Stephen Hunt-type sub option.

Whelan (4) - I never have and doubt I ever will see what he contributes.

McCarthy (6) - Average enough by his standards but I disagree with Stutts in that he was one of the few looking to get on the ball, he shares the workload with Barry at Everton, he's a lone ranger for us.

Hoolahan (8) - Such a joy to watch, work-rate, skill, composure... just pure class. On another night where others did their jobs properly he would have had a goal and two assists against a fine side.

McGeady (4) - Really poor night for him, and I'm a big fan. Nothing really ran for him, even the odd good thing he did. Hasn't had a lot of game time so I'd cut him some slack.

Long (6) - Probably deserves a 7 but those misses were match deciding. The first one was a poor miss, the second one was tear your hair out stuff.


No point in rating the subs really but I thought they were chosen extremely poorly by O'Neill. Hauling McCarthy and Hoolahan off straight after going behind basically surrendered the match. Hoolahan didn't looked tired to me and definitely had another good 10-15 minutes in him at a crucial stage. We were lost from then on.

Delorean there seems to be a metamorphis of these posters where they have an "agenda" they give decent analysis on one side and then completely ignore the other, they amass huge amount of posts and then disappear off the earth when they are "found out".

I know what you're all thinking. I never disappeared off the earth :)

Your earth being foot.ie obviously.

I thought we were excellent in the first half. There was a real desire about the lads and they got about the Serbs creating a number of chances. It was lovely seeing an Irish side stroke the ball around rather than hoofing it up the field constantly, although Forde does nearly always go with the big kick up to Long or Walters when he came on. To be fair, Long nearly always wins the headers.

Second half was awful from us. We were sloppy and gave away possession. The lads were back to the aimless balls that were going nowhere. On a number of such occasions, we weren't under massive pressure from the Serbs but the lads paniced.

A number of things to take from the game;

* Long can show glimpses of being a top player. His finish for the goal was world class and his general play was very good. He was an absolute handful for the Serbs. However, his two misses show why he plays for Hull rather than a top club. I bet if we spoke with West Brom fans they'd pretty much say the same things about Shane from his time there. The first miss could be put down to good goalkeeping to an extent, but the second miss was unforgiveable. I'm a big fan of Shane, but we're going to really miss Robbie when he retires.

* Wes is a beautiful footballer. He needs to be made the fulcrum of the team. He works tirelessly when he doesn't have the ball and when he does, he is a constant threat. He was at the heart of everything good that Ireland did, mostly in the first half. We were a much poorer side when he went off. He linked up well with Long.

* McCarthy is a player I rate massively, but while I've no doubt that he will become a top player for us, he is still struggling with international football. Maybe, I'm being unfair on the lad, but I've yet to see the James McCarthy of Everton perform for us on a consistent basis.

* We need to stop viewing these games as friendlies. With Fifa including friendlies in their seeding for qualifiers, wins and defeats in friendlies could be the difference between us being 3rd or 4th seeds. I think at the moment, we would be in the 5th batch. MON should have kept Long and Hoolahan and even McCarthy on the field longer with this in mind.

Steven Reid's take on things.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-30067629.html

I think he's a good columnist actually.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

The thing is you know its a one off with Coleman, with Ward you know you will get the same hoof time and again, he made one good read to cut out the piece of play from the free kick and tracked well tonight, but he offers nothing more or close towilson on the left - and wilson has proven to be no great shakes there. Ward will be judged on what Ward does, whether or not Coleman played well or not and as said many times Coleman was woeful both halves. Stutts lost a lot of credibility on this forum with his Coleman is Class statement, will take both a long time to recover from their performances. I mentioned in the past how coleman too often plays it out of tight positions but he always gets away with it, yesterday he didnt, how many times have we seen him do that and get out of trouble? Its a bit risky thing to be doing really, and yesterday he got caught out, but people would normally have said great play by coleman - its a very fine line isn't it?

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Yeah but if you watch Ward he doesn't hoof the ball to begin with. He's a pretty good defender who looks for the pass first. You're the only person who's pointed out Ward tracking the winger's run and snuffing out a very good chance for Serbia, but I'm not surprised nobody else did. He's been criticised endlessly in the past on here for following the man he's marking in spite of the fact it's his job.

Another thing, i dont want to open a can of worms, but everyone is lauding how we have had so many players come through from the LOI. I think its great, but is there a correlation here with how technicially ineffcient we lack and how the quality has diminished? If these lads were coming through at a young age testing themselves against the best at clubs across water they might not be lacking that skill proficieny that is seriously lacking in the team at the moment. It's not really something you can just pick up in your late teens/early 20s.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Another thing, i dont want to open a can of worms, but everyone is lauding how we have had so many players come through from the LOI. I think its great, but is there a correlation here with how technicially ineffcient we lack and how the quality has diminished? If these lads were coming through at a young age testing themselves against the best at clubs across water they might not be lacking that skill proficieny that is seriously lacking in the team at the moment. It's not really something you can just pick up in your late teens/early 20s.

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Our best technical players - McGeady, McCarthy, Coleman, Hoolahan - came through outside of the English system. It's a gigantic leap to assume the LOI is the problem when the evidence suggests the English system is more to blame.

DeLorean i agree with that the game plan and tactics went out the window with the subs, we were playing as individuals no team cohesiveness at all after that. At times it appeared like we had 6 wingers and strikes on the field. Bad substitution management and tactical management by Keane and O'Neill maybe they didnt really care and were just using it as a showcase for individuals. Hopefully with a couple of weeks in the summer he can improve on this and get us playing as a team.

I agree with the ratings also bar McCarthy really, anonymous bar a few table tennis matches between him and the backs.

In MON we trust until the first time he doesnt select Sledge as a parter to o'shea/dunne/wilson!!

Anyone think O'neill could move o'shea out to the left to accommodate wilson and dunne in the middle or play wilson and o'shea together in the middle and not necessarily accommodate Dunne? I think he wants a ball playing CB and hence his persistence with playing Wilson in the CB role. I definitely think its the death knell for Sledge there.

O'Shea isn't going anywhere near the left.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Stutts lost a lot of credibility on this forum with his Coleman is Class statement

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Are you the popular voice of this forum now?

Why did I rate Coleman in the first half? He showed a midfielder's desire for the ball and comfort on it. He never hid from the ball and was never afraid to pass the ball to an opponent in a tight space when any of our other defenders would have instinctively hoofed it. That's good play. Otherwise he sets a tone of fear of the ball, just like our midfielders often do. Someone needs composure. Richie Sadlier made the point recently that in our culture passing the ball to an opponent who is marked is considered a stitch up. It shouldn't be. I applaud any player who trusts his own and his teammates' ability to play football even if mistakes are made. Yesterday was just a dumb mistake. He looked like his drink was spiked at half time he was so switched off from the start.

He also made several good overlaps when attacking. He stood out for me as being a top quality player in the first half last night. Few others did.

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean I've lost a lot of credibility on this forum, it just means you don't agree. Your holier than thou tone across many issues of late is really irritating. It detracts from your own credibility.

I thought it was telling that he replaced Ward with Clark last night.

Was at the match last night. I have to say I thought Whelan was very good. He brought an air of calm to every situation that Meyler just doesn't have.

As was said already, once te subs were made the game was over. I thought the 4-4-1-1 with Hoolahan as number 10 was really working but once he was subbed off we had no more creativity.

Ward was awful. Yes he cut out a really goo ball with a good tracking run but then he gave a silly corner away and the Serbs were winning headers easily from the corners. I've said it before about Ward, he's not a left back. In the same way that O'Shea is not a left back. I'd hate to see O'Shea play left back again.

Keogh seemed a bit tentative but is a possible option for the future.

Long finished his goal well but Jesus did he mess up those two chances, especially the one in the second half.

By the time Murphy, Pilkington and Walters came on the game was over. The Serbians had taken absolute control of the game.

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The first miss could be put down to good goalkeeping to an extent, but the second miss was unforgiveable. I'm a big fan of Shane, but we're going to really miss Robbie when he retires.

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Robbie Keane lacks pace and has always been urine poor at one-on-ones against the goalkeeper. Remember his miss against France in Paris? At least Shane Long got a shot off. Seriously, every time Robbie Keane doesn't play we assign him mythical qualities. Keane is a goal-poacher in the box, yes, but he's no better than Shane Long in putting away the types of chances that came up last night.

In fact, Shane Long has the pace to run on to Hoolahan's fantastic passes. And Shane Long has the pace to make Ivanovic look like a fool. Robbie Keane would not have had any of Long's chances, because he doesn't have the pace.

I'm not even convinced Long took his goal that well! Chest height near the keeper with no great pace. I'd bet the keeper was livid to get beaten the way he did.

I suspect many won't agree with this, but it was my instinctive reaction at the time.

So even his goals are rubbish now. We give our players so much stick and take down their confidence. We're becoming like the English media.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm not even convinced Long took his goal that well! Chest height near the keeper with no great pace. I'd bet the keeper was livid to get beaten the way he did.

I suspect many won't agree with this, but it was my instinctive reaction at the time.

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My first reaction too, though from a grainy gif.

Looked almost like he shinned it or something.

Super work to make the goal, it has to be said. But give Keane those three one-on-ones and see what happens...

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm not even convinced Long took his goal that well! Chest height near the keeper with no great pace. I'd bet the keeper was livid to get beaten the way he did.

I suspect many won't agree with this, but it was my instinctive reaction at the time.

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Yeah he also curved the ball away from the center of the goal, conventionally you would have expected him to into the goal. In some ways his goal was the hardest of the 3 big chances he had.

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Originally Posted by brine3

Robbie Keane lacks pace and has always been urine poor at one-on-ones against the goalkeeper. Remember his miss against France in Paris? At least Shane Long got a shot off. Seriously, every time Robbie Keane doesn't play we assign him mythical qualities.

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I agree with that to be fair. I always though Robbie was more clinical working off instinct, than when he had time. The idea that chances like Long's falling to Robbie is as good as a goal is far fetched, and nearly everybody on Sky & RTÉ last night would have you believe.

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Originally Posted by brine3

So even his goals are rubbish now. We give our players so much stick and take down their confidence. We're becoming like the English media.

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Nonsense. I just thought it was an unconvincing finish that the keeper will have been disappointed to have let in.

Others said it was class. I disagreed. Long doesn't fill me with confidence in front of goal but he's a menace to opposition defenders. That's a conundrum that needs solving. Long's confidence isn't low because some internet fan like me objectively criticises his finishing, it's because he knows full well he fluffed big chances last night.

Think he took the goal well. It was an very awkward chance, one that's easy to pull well wide or fire straight at the keeper. He aimed it gently towards the middle knowing that his body shape and positioning would angle it away from the keeper. Don't think he could have done any more with it but it was a bit unusual looking.

I think the message from all the posts above is that regardless of who we play upfront we need to create lots of decent half-chances rather than a few clear cut ones :)

It'd be nice if MON can make us look like a real threat from set pieces again. We may need to rely on them.

Apart from Romario and a few others, you often see strikers make a meal of one on ones. Like they're used to feeding off scraps and suddenly they have a whole banquet in front of them. There was a ball played across in the first half which was cut out which I'm sure Long would have tucked away. Anyway, there was a lot of talk in the media about last night being his big night. He fluffed his lines a couple of times. Let him do that now and put it behind him once the qualifiers start. And keep knocking them in for Hull.

Agree with Stutts on set-pieces. Can't remember a decent one last night apart from Wilson's header which was a harder one than Houghton made out.


And on credibility:

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Does long lack confidence one on one?keane would have a far better understanding with hooligan and finish.

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Wes is from the north inner city but I think that's a bit much. And also doesn't make sense. :)

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Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

Agree with Stutts on set-pieces. Can't remember a decent one last night apart from Wilson's header which was a harder one than Houghton made out.

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Meyler had a free header from a corner shortly after he came on too. It was a better chance than Wilson's I think.

This whole thread is a bit of a curates egg.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Our best technical players - McGeady, McCarthy, Coleman, Hoolahan - came through outside of the English system. It's a gigantic leap to assume the LOI is the problem when the evidence suggests the English system is more to blame.

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McCarthy and McGeady didnt come from the LOI its not necessarily through the English system I meant, just that those coming out of the LOI lack that technical ability.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Robbie Keane lacks pace and has always been urine poor at one-on-ones against the goalkeeper. Remember his miss against France in Paris? At least Shane Long got a shot off. Seriously, every time Robbie Keane doesn't play we assign him mythical qualities.
I agree with that to be fair. I always though Robbie was more clinical working off instinct, than when he had time. The idea that chances like Long's falling to Robbie is as good as a goal is far fetched, and nearly everybody on Sky & RTÉ last night would have you believe.

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Macedonia away, for every one i will counter, he intercepted and a lovely finish past the keeper. It was duff who had a worse miss in Paris one-on-one!

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

McCarthy and McGeady didnt come from the LOI its not necessarily through the English system I meant, just that those coming out of the LOI lack that technical ability.

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You said our players would surely be better off testing themselves "against the best" across the water. I assume you don't consider playing in the Scottish Second Division to be "the best" and yet it produced McCarthy. The idea that players are better off in cattle market academies in England is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Macedonia away, for every one i will counter, he intercepted and a lovely finish past the keeper. It was duff who had a worse miss in Paris one-on-one!

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It was somebody else that mentioned the Paris miss. Yeah, I'm not saying Robbie has never scored a one on one, just saying he's missed plenty but you wouldn't think it listening to Ronnie Whelan & co. last night. God I hate Ronnie Whelan. Ray is annoying too but likable behind it all.

Pedantic point, but I think that the LOI is an unfair scapegoat. It reflects the lack of joined-upness of the whole structure and does as well as it can despite this.

Long: remember his brilliant backheel against Austria and header at Wembley? Scorer of great goals perhaps, but not a great goalscorer. OK, Austria hit the post but still...

Does anyone remember Cascarino's autobiography where he'd describe the voices in his head if ever given time to think about a goal chance? If anyone is the man to get Long's head right it's O'Neill. Many say O'Neill's best asset is his motivational ability. I still believe Long can become the man but he needs a few breaks. Look at his recent game against Villa - one great goal led to another. Last night could have been a career changer but instead he'll have those voices in his head next time he gets that kind of chance.

Meyler's miss was awful I thought. That had nothing to do with LOI or the English system. Goals like that are scored in the LOI and junior leagues all week. I played with a centre-back in Div 3C of the LSL who scored them regularly. A tall international CM should be able to.

Robbie: he exuded calm in several one on ones since Paris, mainly against weaker opposition. I think it is completely fair to think he'd have done much better than Long in those instances. That was the key message of the Georgia and Faroes games last year. I'd bet that Robbie believes in himself all the time in these situations. Even though the evidence is mainly against weak opposition (so by assumption waeker keepers) he is happy to draw the keeper and play a tidy chip. This isn't a strength that Long has.

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Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

Wes is from the north inner city but I think that's a bit much. And also doesn't make sense. :)

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Funnily enough, an old Irish teacher of mine once told us that, like the term 'scally', the origin of the term 'hooligan' to desribe a rowdy ruffian is to be found in the Irish family name, Hooligan, or Hoolahan even. That's probably self-evident, but I believe the terms were originally used to refer derogatively to members of Irish communities in cities like Liverpool and gradually caught on throughout the wider UK to refer to those perceived to be engaging in anti-social behaviour generally.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

McCarthy and McGeady didnt come from the LOI its not necessarily through the English system I meant, just that those coming out of the LOI lack that technical ability.

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As opposed to who? The former-LOI group in the senior squad are still better players than many other Irish players who've not come through the LOI. The reason we cannot rely on stronger players isn't really the fault of the LOI. The league can only do its best given its circumstances. It's a credit to it that so many former players are regularly selected in our senior squads.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

McCarthy and McGeady didnt come from the LOI its not necessarily through the English system I meant, just that those coming out of the LOI lack that technical ability.

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Being involved with the English leagues are not the panacea for our technical woes.
Most all of our underage players (from u17 up) used in competitive games, are with English clubs. In contrast, on the continent, most all such players are still with home based league structure. Even the u21 squads from Norway Sweden Denmark, are mostly stocked with home based players.

Anyone got a link to highlights of last nights game?

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

What does Walters offer apart from work rate? He does not hold the ball up well enough. He doesn't score goals. He doesn't have the pace or crossing ability to play on the wing. Counter attacks are pointless because of his lack of pace or vision (as seen by his reaction to the excellent knock on by Murphy), his link-up play is average... I just don't get it.

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I like Walters. Not a spectacular player, but I think he's the most intelligent striker of a physical ilk we have. Runs good lines in behind, stretches defences, opens up space for others and is a total work house. He's stronger and better at holding the ball up than any of our other striking options IMO.

I don't think he's the best goalscorer but he's grabbed four in 22 apps and appears more of a threat than others when on the field. I don't think Murphy brings the above, and less besides. For instance, they're as slow as each other. Just my view of course.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

I remember Folan too being quite useless but himself and Walters seem to be largely free of any criticism but it's open season on people like Sammon and Murphy for some reason. It's cynical.

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I don't think so. I just think Walters is cut above the others. There's no point lumping all these guys in together. Walters has a quality to him which I don't think the others possess, at this moment. I'd criticism him all day for a bad performance, and he is limited, but I think he'd done fairly well in his relatively thankless stint in a green shirt.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

SVD how did you read from towks posts that he wanted murphy?similar to your analysis that's not what he was saying at all...he just really wanted stokes!

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TOWK has been banging the Murphy drum for some time, over numerous posts. He also took Murphy's solitary contribution (a flick-on) and used it as a stick to beat Walters. Which is fine, but it's spin.

If Messi had scored the goal like Long did then we'd all be going on about what a genius Messi is and how he wrong-footed the keeper.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Macedonia away, for every one i will counter, he intercepted and a lovely finish past the keeper. It was duff who had a worse miss in Paris one-on-one!

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True, Duff's one actually counts as a miss, seeing as he shot the ball at the keeper. Keane just let the ball run out of play.

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Originally Posted by brine3

If Messi had scored the goal like Long did then we'd all be going on about what a genius Messi is and how he wrong-footed the keeper.

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Messi has nothing to prove and Long does. If Shane wants us to to shut up, he could start putting away sitters. We're a struggling nation, we need a promising forward to turn into a goalscorer and we need it now.

People can split the different on Robbie's goals and one-on-one's but, honestly, I just want a Premier League striker to score when he's clean through on goal. Twice. It's not too much to ask.

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Originally Posted by Junior

Anyone got a link to highlights of last nights game?

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on rte player here: http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10259899/