Add of course they did lose 3-0 in Germany as did Austria, Kazakhstan lost by 3 goals too (4-1)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
Sweden of course drew from being 4-0 down, so there is nothing positive in the scoreline.
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Add of course they did lose 3-0 in Germany as did Austria, Kazakhstan lost by 3 goals too (4-1)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
Sweden of course drew from being 4-0 down, so there is nothing positive in the scoreline.
The same applied to Richard Dunne until he was about 27!Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
Edit: just saw liamo's post saying the same. Sorry liamo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
I'd have liked to have seen Clark get more games alongside Dunne. Didn't happen at Villa last year. Should it be considered for Tuesday? I suppose O'Shea and Dunne will start but if we are looking to the future, it'd be a great experience for Clark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
For me last night left me feeling that we really shouldve had the new manager in there for these two games. Look Noel King is in for a week, thats it. God love him, its not easy and one of those games is against Germany away. I like that he tried something different against Germany but it didnt work. He developed trap like delusional tendencies in the after match interview.
I liked how we tried to play the ball and not just hoof it all the time. Problem is when we did win the ball, it was usually very deep in our half. The options were a very short pass to another midfielder who were closely marked anyways or else a ball to the lone man which was usually Stokes. In summary, the outlets werent there. In theory what King was trying to do was sensible but it was all fine until we won the ball back, there was no option and Germany won it back.
This Irish team arent great, ya we all know that but we are better than that. We can play football we can put it up to Germany but 99% of the time they will beat us. Fine. But I would prefer us to try and play some football against them rather than camped in our half for most of the game. The few mins either side of HT were very encouraging.
I would have like us to play a 4-4-1-1 last night, with someone like Hoolahan or Reid playing behind the striker. It wouldve given us two outlet balls and one of those outlets at least wouldve been very comfortable on the ball.
Just a comment on the second goal, too many players in the box leaving too many Germans free outside the edge
of the box, when we realise the problem the defense runs out en mass towards the player with the ball
and the Germans say thank you very much and chip the ball over them.
Like taking candy from a baby.
Back to a constant problem of not marking players, it seems the philosophy is we are incapable of marking them
and so just crowd the box with players, but it's not a clever enough tactic against Germany.
Again I assume the reason we do not make players is because we believe we a physically incapable
of doing so, but if that is the we could at least make an effort of mark some of the spaces were
their players are rather than where they are not. Love to see us try that in a game and see it it helps.
They could practice it in training, have one side mark players and another side just crowd the box and see which worked best.
Problem is there would be no big difference in class between the two teams, however we could form an A team
of the best players and B team of the lesser players.
" Problem is when we did win the ball, it was usually very deep in our half." yes and often it's picking it out of theQuote:
Originally Posted by elroy
back of the net, but this goes back to what I have been saying, the way we mark, or rather do not mark.
We are so afraid of them we basically just sit back and ignore their players, I suppose the problem
is if we do try and mark their players we will get torn to shreds. But if you sit back too much you are
on a hiding to nothing. I look at the Germany Sweden match when the Germans were 4-0? up, did they
then sit back thinking job done and then get torn to shreds by the Swedes?
I think we would do better man marking player for player, certainly far better than having 3 making one
man leaving other two free to roam, that seems suicidal.
We generally played pretty well away from home under Trap, a simple point that seems to have been forgotten. We could have nicked a goal last night, we may have even deserved one... but Germany could have scored any amount.
King's interview afterwards was surreal. I was just saying to the folks with me that the third goal probably upset King more than the defeat itself, after all, 2-0 on paper isn't atrocious. Little did I suspect that he'd confirm my thoughts so literally and in actual words.
Not making any substitutions, because he felt that there was a degree of respectability in losing 2-0, was cowardly and more than a little pathetic. If that had been Trap many on here would be up in arms as to how little he rates or trusts our other options in the mold of Hoolahan, Reid, etc. My God like, at least Trap had the balls to play actual wingers.
The 1-6 at Lansdowne was horrendous, no doubt, but I don't think we should kid ourselves into believing last night was any better. That night I think the German's had eight shots on goal and scored six, including a number of long range efforts which usually won't fly in. Forde kept out a few of those last night and we were marginally more threatening in attack, no major difference really in terms of positives.
Is it true he didn't mention Forde's performance at all in the post match interview ?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Here it is...Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fLY...e_gdata_player
I fear Stuggart we are both of a vintage that we remember a Teenage honeymonster bombing down the wing playing right wingback for Everton! For those of you lucky enough to only know Dunne the glory years have a glance at this http://www.toffeeweb.com/players/profiles/Dunne.asp .Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
That is a good point about Traps away record, his away record was excellent indeed I think it was the best of any Irish manager, it was his home record which was the real problem. I think Traps worst was the 4-0 defeat to Spain in Poland and technically Spain were not at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
The only positive to be taken from the match is that Noel will not now be made permanent manager.
Hold on though, there isn't a single poster here who denies Traps away record. DeLorean is being disingenuous there. Trap has the best away record of any Irish manager ever. He also has the worst home record. And I don't think Trap played anyone as good as Germany in an away qualifier. Bari was very good, but years ago and that Italian team wasn't a patch on this German team. Nor were the French.
And it's only a crumb, I know, but we were monumentally better on Friday than the performance in Gdansk where we did nothing. One timid late shot by Keane is all I can remember. Did we even win a corner in that game?
Let's see what King does on Tuesday before the knives come out. I thought it was a bizarre selection but we had years of that under Trap.
I wasn't being disingenuous. My point about our away performances was in response to the perceived level of improved performance on Friday night. There's every chance we would have fared better in that game under Trap anyway, as we often did away from home. I really don't think it was anything to do with a new found freedom of expression.
I also think comparisons to Gdansk are a bit unreasonable. We were playing arguably the best team ever on top of their game, in a game they had to win at a major tournament. Their style of play is also such that we were never likely to muster enough possession to create anything substantial. Spain have done that to far better sides than us, including the Germans in the WC, although obviously the Germans made better use of their limited possession and defended better.
I'm trying to think of the last time we've been behind in a match (for such a long time) and not made a single sub in the 90 mins. It was crazy. Against these teams which enjoy so much more possession our players will always be chasing shadows, not freshening it up with subs is catastrophic.
You were saying people had forgotten about Trap's away performances, yet it's widely acknowledged how good his away record was! Trap wasn't fired for his away record though.
I think Friday's game is utterly meaningless from a comparative or analytical perspective. Germany were a class apart, less tika takka than Spain but equally adept at probing and probably better at using the full width of the pitch. That said, purely objectively, I think we did some things better than we have done in recent years. The real outcome of the debate will only become clear after we've played other teams of a more "normal" standard than Germany, probably a year from now.
Also, I think Traps greatest asset was our organisation without the ball. I think there have been signs that this has been diminishing of late. And in any event everyone everywhere is better without the ball these days. Traps departure doesn't mean we are suddenly going to start leaking like a sieve again, as per Stan. On Friday we played without the ball much the same way as we would have done under Trap, albeit putting more pressure on the man with the ball, as is the accepted style these days. We created more chances in Germany than we did in Sweden and Austria combined.
This isn't a defence of a Kings selection or the lack of substitutions. I personally think he got too hung up about stopping them and their full backs in particular. I always like to think the best way of containing attacking full backs is to give them something to think about defensively. If we had any two of Pilkington, McClean, Reid, Hoolahan, McGeady and Stokes (playing his Celtic-vs-Barcelona role, with Long central) in the positions Doyle and Whelan occupied on Friday I think we'd have countered more effectively without giving up anything on the defensive side. That in itself would have made their full backs more conservative. In theory anyway :)
I know it sounds harsh but in my opinion he really showed how out of his depth he was, which I didn't think that would have been possible so early on. He was basically counting down the minutes hoping to secure a 'credible' 2-0 defeat, by winging it in the form of doing nothing. Trap got hammered, and rightly so, for his decisions and lack thereof against Austria, but at least he was trying to see out a 2-1 win. By the same logic where does that rank King in trying to hold on to a 2-0 defeat just so he wouldn't look too bad in his brief cameo? It really was beyond belief and his interview compounded the mystification.
I was saying that we had recent history for performing better away from home anyway, which would explain any perceived level of improved performance more than any freedom of expression King may have instilled, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Hyperbole.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Yes it was strange/unusual, unprecedented etc, but it wasn't crazy and definitely not catastrophic. Where exactly do you think it went catastrophic after the hour mark?
Look upon the lack of substitutions as damage limitation by a stand-in manager who did alright on the night with a team who had been getting progressively worse for nearly 2 years.
On other matters
We can't compare a stand-in manager's stint to Trap's away games in the first 2 campaigns. That's a patently ridiculous comparison. But it was as good if not better than anything we have done in this campaign and he managed that by making mistakes left right and centre. Just imagine the improvement if he or another manager was capable of rectifying/improving a few obvious situations.
Well, let's see how he does in a home game. I think we can at least agree that home performances against decent teams have been poor, although I think we'll agree to differ on the first half against Austria. I expect well agree that home performances against the likes of Armenia and Macedonia were workmanlike and efficient rather than being particularly good. I know you don't get style marks for a win, but at the same time the standard of performance contains some additional information benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I won't argue for a second about defending a 2 nil defeat. Even at 2 down I thought that a goal was there to be nicked and then it'd have been interesting.
At this stage, will take any sort of win and with a view to Euro 2016 qualifying, hope Turkey don't win on Tuesday.
Unless we get a very good manager, more by accident that design I reckon, the mantra of 'we haven't got the players', will be oft repeated in the next few years...
What's the significance of Turkey on Tuesday?
I wonder how Trap would have done in Moscow with Delaney and Clark at centre back?
See the Euro 2016 thread, to do with seedings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Badly. You might get away with one, but not both...Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Agree. I couldn't believe Hoolahan wasn't played from the start, let alone brought on as a sub. Whelan played in his stead. Crazy selection, and I like Noel. He is a former coach of mine at Home Farm. Great coach to be honest and gave us a new perception on the game when we played under him. Ireland never would have won the game against Germany, let's be honest, but my biggest aggravation is and has always been, not playing our best players - something Trap graduated with honours in. Having seen what Whelan has done, or should I say hasn't done, over the last few years in an Ireland shirt, it is hard to see how anyone would pick him. Anyway....Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
But as far as the game plan, I give full credit to King for getting his players to play a short passing game. Coleman most impressive in this regard I thought. At the end of the day it just shows you how far we have to go to get to the 'start' line. We're not even at that stage yet to be honest. But we have to start somewhere and although it's going to take time, it's a journey that has to be made.
Is King related to Martin Luther King?
That's a bit like asking, is Martin Luther King related to Martin Luther...
Given that most of us watch EPL, I couldnt help thinking the other night as Germany completely dominated possession that how come the likes of a Crystal Palace against a team like Man U dont appear to be so dominated. Like United wouldnt be able to boss the possession and pin Palace in their half like Germany did to us. I think the gulf between United and Palace and Germany and Ireland is a similar comparison.
I suppose what Im getting at is, would the end result have been any worse if we actually tried to play against them (rather than just damage limitation)? Playing higher up the pitch, play a little more offensively? I dont think it would have been.
As I type this, I can think of La Liga games where I have watched Barca in particular completely boss and dominate possession in a similar manner. Maybe this point in itself is illustrating the need for change in the UK/Irish game.
Yes, I think that's it. I watched the game on Friday with 2 ardent United fans. They were saying that under Moyes and even Ferguson United play a relatively unsophisticated brand of football. They were saying they watched St Galen in the Europa League, a relatively unheralded Swiss team, and they played a far more accomplished brand of football.
I have always admired the central and Eastern European style of football and prefer it to the Latin style. The movement off the ball and the angles they create is a joy to watch.
Would Celtic against Barcelona be a mismatch of Germany v Ireland proportions? Celtic certainly put it up to them, and also Milan. I also thought Celtic were superb at home to Karagandy and said here at the time that I wish Ireland could play like that at home. The thing is, we probably have better players in most positions. I don't watch Celtic enough to be sure though.
But look at how Bayern took Man City apart last week. Yes, City came back strongly but that's like saying we could have drawn 3-3 in Cologne. 6 of the German team are from Bayern. City's squad cost a fortune.
Well that's the crux really isn't it? Man United aren't particularly good at the minute and are in a period of transition. Also a game against Palace is unlikely to get their players revved up to the nines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
We've been humiliated by Germany and Spain, both in games that meant a huge amount to those teams. Putting it up to them wasn't really an option, unless we could've flooded the defence, kicked them round the place and hoped for a lenient ref so we'd end up with enough players to finish the game. Our best players wouldn't get near their squads.
Despite their first leg win, Karagandy were awful in the 2nd game. Probably proportionately even worse than Ireland. And yes, Celtic could easily get humped by Barca in another CL game. They're very limited in that context, but if they can get 7 points in their remaining games, should be enough to keep them in Europa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Not sure how much a mismatch Barca away will be, but if Messi plays we can fear the worst.
More interestingly would be who is better, Celtic or Ireland? Not much in it, but give it to the 'Tic by a cigarette paper !!
As for Barca, v.Germany;Barca have the better defence.
I didn't realise that Barca have a defence.
Maybe you should pay more attention...
:rolleyes:
Descended from Good King Wenceslas I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Credit to Stutts as Roi.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/socc...king-1.1559480
Even the biggest fantasist isn't expecting Hoolahan and Reid in the same team though...
You seem to think he deserves a free ride for the Germany game and I might have agreed if he had got the basics even half right. This isn't a 'Bring back Trap' campaign or anything like it, but if Gio was in charge the other night, picked that ultra negative team and tried to hang on for dear life to a 2-0 defeat he would have been ridiculed. Not bringing on a creative player or two, with our campaign dead and buried and absolutely nothing to lose, bar face, was inexcusable. I know you're not arguing this point a such, but obviously you're not as put out by it as me. I don't see why we need to wait until the game tomorrow to rate his performance. We can rate tomorrow night on tomorrow night, just as we can rate Friday on Friday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I'm sure we would have lost in Russia if we didn't have Dunne, and I'm sure we would have lost plenty more aside without him. We could have easily lost by an embarrassing scoreline the other night without Forde on top of his game too. I completely disagree with the doc, usually such an optimist but I guess this is Sledge related, about Ciaran Clark. I think he has all the attributes you need in a centre back, aggressive, assertive, good in the air and vocal. He's 24 now which is young in centre back terms. He's improving all the time and those brain farts we gradually become less frequent I'd imagine. To be honest I'm relieved to have somebody of his potential taking up the reins post Dunne.
I'm not sure if that was aimed at my 'Trap away' comment but I've explained a few times what I meant by that. On your point though, our performance in Stockholm was incomparably better than our performance on Friday in my view, even allowing for the level of opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Thanks DeLorean, I concur with all of paragraphs 1 and 2.
Thats a very good question stutts, I'm pretty sure we would have conceded at least 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I thought we actually played ok on Friday, for a back four that had never played before, and a team that included kelly which it shouldnt have really.
I thought the selection was bizzare but that the team performed pretty well overall, but some were poor. I would have started with Wilson left back and thrown Whelan in beside Gibson, the other calls were marginal as we werent going to creating much anyway.
Mark12345, did you actually see the game? Whelan was one of our best players on the night. I have often said how poor he is but i remarked(tongue in cheek perhaps) to stutts on the night, that Trap had been holding him back all these years, that ball he played over the top in the second half was class. Long probably would have had the pace there to get ahead of Neuer and take it around him, whether or not he would have scored is another matter.
No, he is related to Martin King.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Only just back from Cologne yesterday so catching out of the forum proper now but I'm a little surprised more hasn't been said about Glenn, as I agree with you. His best game in an Ireland shirt for an age, albeit in a role that utterly didn't suit him. He was disciplined and worked hard to double up on Schurrle - he and Coleman's work was far superior to Kelly and Doyle on the other side. In the second half he and Coleman also switched seamlessly at times to let Seamus go forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
On the ball he was decent too - held the ball well, didn't panic, looked to get the team going forward. That pass to put Stokes away was a beauty. For me more composed and involved than McCarthy, and far more quality than Wilson who was quite poor on the ball.
Fair enough I haven't seen it back. Didn't seem there was much complaints from the player's at the time, but I'll exonerate Anthony in that case. Still if his performance confirmed anything, it's simply that when Robbie goes we are in big trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Yep, Paul and I were in agreement with the Whelan assessment. He actually looked a decent player. I know you cant judge a player's performance from a set piece but he was given a dreadful ball by Gibson(?) which he did well to control and put in a good ball onto Clark's head, leading to him hitting the bar. Whelan's general play was decent, his best in a long time. Credit where it's due, but I still wouldn't pick him!
Paul, I thanked mark1234's post because he is right about Friday being the first step in a long journey we have to take. We are starting from behind the start line, if that makes sense!
SvD, Stokes was onside that time. A tight call but the wrong one.