No promotion, no relegation. Nonsense of an answer imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
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No promotion, no relegation. Nonsense of an answer imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Yet slowly strengthening what's there and giving other teams who haven't a chance something worth playing for. What sense is it for the likes of Cobh to remain in the league at the minute when they're going to stay rooted to the bottom of the First Division anyway, when at least in an extended Premier they'll get a home game every year against the likes of St. Pat's, Shamrock Rovers, Cork City and others who will attract a decent crowd.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufcfan
The argument can be made for the weakening of the Premier, but the strong teams will remain strong, and they'll remain battling amongst each other for the league title, let the teams with nothing to play for worry about that themselves, besides the greater prize money for finishing higher up the league table being a bit of incentive.
Should the English Premier League be shortened to 10 teams because half the sides in it have nothing to play for? Same to be said for La Liga, Bundesliga, etc. Absolute nonsense.
An extended Premier is more attractive to sponsors, makes derby matches a bit more special, and most importantly, makes everyone equal.
As much as sense getting slaughtered by other teamsQuote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
This is the worst argument about a one team division. Bringing an extra 1,000 or so people in will not help how Harps, or any club, is run.Quote:
when at least in an extended Premier they'll get a home game every year against the likes of St. Pat's, Shamrock Rovers, Cork City and others who will attract a decent crowd.
Are you seriously arguing for a one division league on the basis of "let the teams with nothing to play for worry about that themselves"Quote:
The argument can be made for the weakening of the Premier, but the strong teams will remain strong, and they'll remain battling amongst each other for the league title, let the teams with nothing to play for worry about that themselves, besides the greater prize money for finishing higher up the league table being a bit of incentive.
The only nonsense here is you selectively comparing the LOI to the 3 biggest leagues in the world. Look I can do it too; they have relegation/promotion....Quote:
Should the English Premier League be shortened to 10 teams because half the sides in it have nothing to play for? Same to be said for La Liga, Bundesliga, etc. Absolute nonsense.
What basis do you think it's more attractive to sponsors? You're guessing and talking about your club aren't you. I'll guess that sponsors of other clubs are happy enough with the way it is.Quote:
An extended Premier is more attractive to sponsors,
Football isn't about equality. It's a meritocracy.Quote:
, and most importantly, makes everyone equal.
Sligo wouldn't have the numbers for a reserve team I don't think. Cork and Pats would make sense, if Pats can afford it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
The league survived from 1921 until 1985 as a single division league.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufcfan
If people really brought into the "giving teams something to play for", there'd be more relegation and promotion places. Have it 3 down from the premier (suck more teams into that) and 3 up from the first. 4th from bottom could play off with 4th in the first as well. Lots of teams with lots to play for, all season.
I don't see how this is a given at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Never suggested it would help how any club is run, but it would make more games attractive to more teams.Quote:
This is the worst argument about a one team division. Bringing an extra 1,000 or so people in will not help how Harps, or any club, is run.
Selective quoting. Classic foot.ie. My main point is that there's currently half the teams in both leagues that have as good as nothing to play for already. Anyone genuinely believe Athlone won't get relegated now, or anyone genuinely believe Cobh will get promoted? Don't forget Shamrock Rovers B who have nothing to play for since game one.Quote:
Are you seriously arguing for a one division league on the basis of "let the teams with nothing to play for worry about that themselves"
My point is as valid as any of the rest. I only compared the LOI to those leagues because there's still 7 or 8 teams that play for absolutely nothing in each of those leagues, which seems to be the widest used argument against an extended League of Ireland Premier. Irrespective of the strength of those leagues, I could have used any terrible league in the world with a large Premier Division with the same argument.Quote:
The only nonsense here is you selectively comparing the LOI to the 3 biggest leagues in the world. Look I can do it too; they have relegation/promotion....
I've already stated why it's more attractive. Bigger derby games happening less frequently, wider spread location in the same division. Those two reasons alone make for a more attractive league.Quote:
What basis do you think it's more attractive to sponsors? You're guessing and talking about your club aren't you. I'll guess that sponsors of other clubs are happy enough with the way it is.
Of course it is, I do agree, but when things simply aren't working as they are, something has to give.Quote:
Football isn't about equality. It's a meritocracy.
Try spending a few years in the First Division with St Pat's and you'll automatically realise how desperately bad it is. You honestly have no idea how little anyone cares about it. It simply needs to be scrapped, and the whole League of Ireland revamped.
If it was a competitive league people would care. Cork and Shels certainly cared when they were battling for promotion. The problem is the general apathy towards Irish soccer.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Sounds way too much like 'we can't get promoted, so help us out here' to meQuote:
You honestly have no idea how little anyone cares about it. It simply needs to be scrapped, and the whole League of Ireland revamped.
In real terms no one cares about the premier division either.
Do you want revamping, or do you want a simple change to one division? Moving to one league won't help anyone if that's all that happens. There's been loads of tinkering with the league make up
The whole basis for your argument above seems to be 'we're **** with nothing to play for, why can't we be **** with a couple of games against Rovers and Cork?'
I sincerely hope it's against some UEFA rule that you have to have at least one division below the top flight. Then again what are UEFA rules to the FAI...
As far as I know, it's not written in law, but UEFA's policy is that all league systems should have multiple tiers and any deviation from that would cause problems for entering teams into European competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufcfan
I believe they can waive such a rule where the non promotion of certain clubs contravenes the European Convention On Human Rights. Apparently more than eh..8.. years consecutively in such a hellhole breaches the Convention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I believe they can choose not to waive that rule when in such cases where it's funny :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Longfordian
I would have to agree with dodge that promotion and relegation is part of football and scrapping the first division would take that away. Last seasons play-off campaign was the best I've ever witnessed on terms of both the football on show and the atmosphere and build up around the games. The crowds were impressive too so why take that experience away from supporters even if they do have to watch a lot of sh1te before that, but Trust me it's worth it and that's coming from a fan who saw his team lose in the final!
I'd like to know what the alternatives are then? Including a load of B teams in the First Division? The First Division isn't working as it is. I've been around for several promotions and relegations as a Harps fan, I know the joy of getting promoted, and the devastation of relegation. Obviously a league isn't the same without it, but I feel that it's completely irrelevant when you consider how the First Division is going further and further down the sh!tter as each season passes.
Everyone seems so very opposed to scrapping the First Division, but nobody seems to be able to come up with a better alternative other than adding in more B teams.
The Premier Division is hardly setting the world on fire. You might want to fix that too while you're searching for answersQuote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Hows about the very original idea of having one league for all and then splitting after one round on merit in to a top ten trophy and a bottom half graveyard - Harps get a visit from the mighty and wealthy and then the mighty and wealthy get to scrap for inclusion at the business end of the season. Those not in the upper section might spend a season in fear of the grim reaper but no more so than those in the 1st division now. And think of all the fun with say Waterford trawling through player registrations if they dont make the top ten or Galway with a stack of DVD's ready to disperse and during the season too! Would win the best soap opera/drama at all the tv awards - and if Shamrock Rovers A and B ended up in the also rans that would BE the bonus feature on the DVD!
Ok maybe not then!
The Premier Division is a damn sight better than the First Division, despite it's flaws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
We're getting back to my point about the better clubs being in the higher division here...Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
I'd like to know what actual benefits one league would have?Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
The league is in bad shape- never before have we been in a situation where a reserve side had to be invited in just to make the first division up to eight teams. Survival in the first division is incredibly tough- I know Harps walk a tightrope just to survive year to year. I'm sure it's the same at Waterford, Shelbourne, Wexford, Cobh. Galway are just back and being debt free with major sponsors is a huge advantage while Longford seem to have enough backing to tick over. But no doubt the people running both clubs know how difficult just surviving is- and the scary thing is you don't have to do too much wrong to find yourself in a world of hurt. You only half to fall short once and your club could slip under. And the longer you're down there the harder it gets and the finer the margins become. Certainly the likes of Harps and Waterford are paying for past sins as well as for being in the graveyard- but it's not good when good clubs who have brought a lot to the league are struggling simply not to die.
The irony here is that most of the clubs that the league has lost have actually come from the premier division.
But in any case the depressing thing is the lack of a plan. We know the clubs aren't going to come up with it- each will protect their own interests. The FAI have shown no interest in strategy- simply dealing with each crisis as it arises instead. I don't have all the answers by any means, but it's a sad situation when there is no evidence that the governing body have a vision for the league. Unless hoping the problems go away counts as a vision. Perhaps things will improve if O'Neill can get the national team playing and the financial situation of the FAI improves. But at the moment it seems to me just a matter of time before we lose more clubs.
Imagine you are Bohs, Bray, Shelbourne, Drogheda, Wexford or any other of the irish teams fighting every year more for survival than anything else, which is the case of everyone but maybe 4 teams in the top of the table. Imagine we finally got a single tier and, at least in the case of the 4 first teams, you had no relegation to fear.
In that scenario, you would still need to cut costs wherever you can. Since competing with both Rovers, Dundalk and St Pats for the european spots is not realistic, you could mount the cheapest squad possible, maybe with 25 amateurs, as there is no change if you finish 5th or 18th.
Can anyone seriously imagine any improvement in attendances, income, quality of football, in that scenario? And this before even a ball was kicked, nevermind, say, after the 10th round where the top 4-5 would be already decided. It's said that Finn Harps, Cobh and Wexford would benefit of an one-off game against with Shamrock Rovers with an attendance of thousands, but how many would really turn up to watch a match that would be basically a friendly? How many would come back after their home team of amateurs was mauled by one of the 4 semi-professional teams left in the country? How long before even these 4 teams deteriorate in a league with no competition and descend further from the level of nowadays where the irish champions couldn't beat a team from damn Lithuania, a poor country with the population of Dublin where everybody watches basketball or ice hockey and no one gives a damn about football?
We hear a lot that there is no solution, but how come even the country mentioned above can maintain a healthy pyramid without a club folding every 10 minutes? To me, and after two years there with a big interest in the irish football, both sides of the border, and watching 7 matches from different clubs every month, I can say that no other league in the world is abandoned by the national federation to the extent this one is. If you look into World Cup squads, only impoverished countries from black Africa reach the point of sending 23 players that don't play in the local championship of which a big number not even played professional football there. Ireland had the unique situation in the First World (and in the whole world comparable only to the french colonies like Algeria and Morocco) of that the diaspora is so huge that they didn't even to worry about mounting a strong national league to have a decent national team. In that case, the federation in its laziness overlooked the league as much as they could.
Solutions? Well, let's look at similar cases, albeit Ireland is in kind of an extreme position. The excuse of football not being the most popular sport by a mile as it is everywhere else, for me, is not enough. Football here in Sweden, where I live now, is surely behind Ice Hockey, while Handball, Floorball and Bandy (the later two weird things that only exist here). Clubs complain that costs are too high, why are they? It can't be the wages, irish players are already almost paid in peanuts. The only area I can think where costs can be reduced is travelling, as Ireland is sparsely populated and longer travels are needed than in other places with similar population.
What would I do if I was the president of FAI? First halving my wage and all the other useless bureaucrats. Second would be actively promoting the league with the national team matches, giving a free ticket to a LoI match with every Ireland ticket, more advertising, one Bohs X Rovers per year in Aviva, trying everything they didn't bother with for a long time. Actively seeking new teams, rather than the lazy "expressions of interest", actively going after FC Carlow, Tralee, Monaghan, Home Farm, and asking why they don't want to join the league and how this could change. I don't know what the requirements are, but if they are barring clubs from joining they are certainly too high. If for some reason a club can only afford to play in a stadium with 50 seats, but can pay their bills and comply with the safety requirements let them do it. Once we get at least 10 teams in the First Division, a split in "conferences" could be done, like the american sports, where teams would play more often the opponents nearby with playoffs to even out differences between the groups, and the dreaded trip from Ballyboffey to Cobh would only happen once a year. And finally, trying as hard as possible to get an all-Ireland league, the only definitive solution to me. Actually would kill two birds with one stone, as their state doesn't seem to be exactly the best nowadays.
I don't mean to sound preachy and I accept criticism on whatever I said, but since everyone is giving their two cents, here is my suggestions.
People say this, but I've never actually heard a coherent argument about why it would be true. Clubs in this country always put out the best team they can afford - and frequently they put out a more expensive team than they can afford - but I've never known a team to purposely try and do it on the cheap. Ultimately, teams in this league rely upon fans putting their hands in their pockets more than teams in other leagues, and even the most loyal fans will get ****ed off if you try and short-change them.Quote:
In that scenario, you would still need to cut costs wherever you can. Since competing with both Rovers, Dundalk and St Pats for the european spots is not realistic, you could mount the cheapest squad possible, maybe with 25 amateurs, as there is no change if you finish 5th or 18th.
Well, Premier Division teams do it because otherwise they will get relegated, and First Division teams do it because competing against the top teams in their league is still within their reach with some luck (see Mervue United last season). Since there is no way that a bottom First Division can ever compete with Sligo Rovers, myself I wouldn't waste money trying to spend more money than I have to finish 16th instead of 18th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I don't think that's true, to be honest. There's no reason why, for instance, Bohs this season would bring in Jason Byrne when he's not going to be the difference between them finishing 12th and 10th, but he might be the difference between them finishing 9th or 8th. They're spending the extra money because he's a legend and he'll excite the fans. They're not in danger of relegation and they wouldn't be without him either, but they brought him in because he's box office.Quote:
Originally Posted by luiz
I personally agree on with Luiz.
I also think the fact that the teams play against each other more than the typical two games, it's not good for the league, it makes too big differences, so I would go for something like the Southamerican system, with two tournaments making, relegations and promotions in the summer too, so every year there would be two champions. League would be more attractive, and there would be more movement with teams promoting and relegating constantly.
Another idea I've been thinking on is to try to do something with Northern Ireland. That would be the best for the football in the Island. I guess noone wants to lose the european spots, so maybe something like half season with Northern Ireland and half season each country by their own wouldn't be that bad.
But to join the countries would make possible to have a premier league of 12 teams, for example, then a second division with two groups, north and south and after some time, we could create a third league with North, center and south division attracting some junior clubs as the travel costs would be less, and the requirements too.
I also want to point that I think the creation of "B" squads is very good for the development of football here, this teams don't have the pressure of perform and are lining up young guys who wouldn't have a chance to play anywhere, well supported economically, I think it's just going to be good and they can give more to the league that many people thinks.
Tell you what, lads, but Athlone Town are making the best case for playing in the First Division I've seen in a long time.
As I said earlier, if this is true, why not extend out promotion and relegation? It should be 3 (or at least 2+1) down from the premier, then there'd be a lot more clubs in the mix for relegation/ playoff, for longer in the season. Similarly in the first having top two of eligible clubs up automatically (as it was for years) plus a playoff (even 3rd v 4th and winner against 10th in the premier) would mean more teams in the mix, for longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by luiz
Hiding behind the teams having nothing to play for argument is all well and good, but then the premier division clubs and FAI have tried to make the premier as much as a closed shop as possible. Even compared to what was in place before they started messing between 10 and 12 team premiers, summer football etc.
I'd definitely be in favour of 2+1 to be relegated rather than 1+1 as now
It definitely makes sense to have more relegation places... it could mix things up a bit with more changes between the divisions.
There are seven teams in the First Division eligible for promotion and people would make it so at least two and possible three could be promoted in any given season? Madness.
You're just afraid of Shamrock Rovers getting into a relegation battle under such circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
No problem. If that happens we'll just buy Bray.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
The town or the club?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Depends on how much clandestine support we get from our best mates at the FAI.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Or Wicklow County Council!
I would totally favour one more promotion spot in the First Division as long as the number of clubs was bigger than what it is now. What Charlie says is totally true.
So we need two divisions to give teams something to play for, but then we also want to give the bare minimum number of things to play for? OK then....
Maybe we'd have more than 7 teams eligible if there was more chance of getting out of the first. History shows that the playoff is usually won by the premier team, so having it 2+1 will usually mean 2 down 2 up anyway.
Bottom 2 in premier should be relegated. Top of first should be promoted & have a playoff for 2nd promotion place with 2nd,3rd,4th & 5th in first.
I thought the play-off system used for a season or two between the 2nd last in the premier and 2nd, 3rd & 4th first division was a good option.
Are more clubs likely to enter a B team in the first division in the next few years?
On a Meath team for the LoI, it's not an area that has expressed interest before. The underage league is the place to start as Mayo and Kerry have in the past.
Ha, a full season to exclude 2 teams from the play offs...Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainee