Foley is not getting anywhere near the first team.
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Foley is not getting anywhere near the first team.
How can you say that stutts, when he has clearly shown double standards, by including reid and whelan who were injured in the past?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Its somewhat disappointing(again) about mccarthy, i mentioned before about familiarity in the way trap wants people to operate and learn, hence he has these development sessions at the end of the season to ingrain his ideas and style in players. Most people laughed at my suggestion, yet people are saying the exact same now. this was the real ample time to include him and "learn" him. People will say traps method is he only includes those he trusts and have adapted to his style for the "betterment" of the team and he wont pick them for the important games if they haven't been involved before. He picked 29 players, having mccarthy over learning like 10 other of these who probably wont feature, and for those who lack game time, as he does, the training would have helped him. This gives people excuses to back trap and say all hail, when he doesn't include players in the important games. We will not see mccarthy in the home game against macedonia. Whats even more worrying is he thinks we are fine with the solutions for midfield we already have "but we will continue to follow him". Now if anybody cant read between the lines what "follow" him means, ill give a hint, his lack of selection has little to do with being injured.
Its interesting to see the slow but gradual changing of mindsets on the forum though.
The other thing that has ticked me off is the bit about "we see him as this and that", to me speaks somewhat of arrogance and an inability to see that other esteemed colleagues haven't as good a judgement as he does. Lets take the coleman thing, 3 goals in his last 5 games and 1 assist i think. Our best right winger at the moment yet he doesn't get picked for that position. You pick your in form players regardless of their position if thats where they are excelling. Now the other way of looking at this is some sort of contentment, Trap is happy with what we have, so lets not change things, even if changing it for something better is an option. Trap could also play the balance game, we need to breed and develop more options for the overall balance of the team. Which in fairness to him he has done in the past. Yet this contradicts his idea of picking the players who are playing week in week out. There are so many contradictions in his selections that its hard to pinpoint what his thought process is. But there is no excuse for not picking your best form players, in their best positions. And their best positions can only be those that they are currently playing in.
Interesting XI alright and I'd be happy to see it. Duff is in my first XI any day, but he's never fit when it counts so it makes sense to play friendlies without him. I think I'm one of the few here who actually believes in Gibson, but Fahey did very well in Slovakia and deserves the recognition. I'd have Hunt on the bench.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
Kevin Foley has played as a right winger, and sometimes as central midfielder, in recent weeks. Would you play him there?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Spot on Paul. Coleman is our best right winger at this moment in time and should be played there next month. His comments yesterday suggest to me that Coleman will be on the bench because we couldn't risk him at RB because of Bale. O'Shea will be at RB and Lawrence in front of him. Lawrence is a decent player and has done well for us but he is s l o w and we need to look at other options when the opportunity arises. We don't have any proper pace in the current starting 11 (unless Long starts) and Coleman would give us another outlet to counter quickly if needed.
Just look at our so called Trap best 11. It worries me greatly....
Given - unused sub at City
O'Shea - back from injury but Rafael is now number 1 RB at United
Kilbane - Plays in League 1 as a midfielder
Dunne - finally finding some form after a horrific start to season
St Ledger - so so
Duff - starting to play well again thank God
McGeady - mid season break
Whelan - Sub for Stoke
Green - dropped for Forest game
Keane - Sub for Spurs
Doyle - struggling for goals
Coleman and Long are absolutely buzzing right now. Both should be starting IMO.
Just simply because he's been out for so long and is only just back. It'd p1ss off his club and the player no end if he got injured, even in training - which has happened a few of our players on Irish duty.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
If Trap is indeed so stubborn that he's ignoring McCarthy, our best midfield prospect since Keane, because of what happened 9 months ago, then he can go fcuk himself. But, as I say, I'm inclined to accept it on face value. Didn't Wilson pull out of a squad too on flimsy grounds? He's in.
Coleman has played right wing week in week out since end of September. That's a little bit different to a player (Foley) having to fill in for his team because of injuries/suspensions.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
If he continues to start Green, Kilbane and to a lesser extent Whelan then the crowd are going to turn on him. The tactics Trap employed in the away game to Slovakia showed he is not thinking on his feet. Instead he has a "game Plan" which he refuses to change no matter how poor the opposition are. Foley has been the the best Irish central midfielder in the Premiership in the last two months bar none. He was excellent away to Liverpool and in the Wolves home game against Chelsea. And yet he is unlikely to even get a run out. This is a bigger worry than McCarthy not getting picked.
you took that out of context. Best player in that positionQuote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I wouldn't necessarily say its definitely one thing stutts. I think he also sees him as a player that doesn't suit his adaptation of how this team plays.
Thats another interesting point I didnt mention. Trap always likes the italian style of defend defend, and counter quickly, hence why he uses mcgeady and he has said the same in the past. Coleman is ideal for this. Mcgeady isn't even technically a defender, coleman is, surely that in itself would completely fit in with this scenario. Again another complete contradictory example. Im really begining to wonder about the whole thing. At least he is consistent with his bizzare, random contradictory remarks and assessments.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
But he did it with reid in the past. Andrews in the past. Oshea this time(who might not even get to play this week with rafal back from suspension and therefore technically wont be as fresh or fit as mccarthy if he plays from now).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
Its not really because mccarthy, coleman and foley cases come under the same assessment.
Can someone merge my posts? Sorry i reply on android and its a balls...
If Trap is going to select/not select Coleman on the basis of the threat from Bale, then Trap clearly hasn't done his homework.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
Bale injured his back in the first half away to Everton on Jan.5th, struggling on until 58th minute, when he had to go off. He wasn't even on the bench for Spurs next game (FA Cup v Charlton), since Harry was "nursing him" for the following game (EPL home v Man U, 16th). Although Bale played the 90, he clearly looked v. subdued during the game. Then away to Newcastle (EPL on Sat.22nd), he pulled up in obvious pain after 5 minutes, going off in the 11th. After the game, Harry admitted they were worried that his injury may be more serious than first thought. However, it is notable that he started v Newcastle at LB (Assou-Ekotto injured), with new signing Pienaar in Left Midfield.
Between now and the ROI/Wales game, Spurs are away to Fulham (FAC), and away to Blackburn & home to Bolton (EPL). I severely doubt Bale will play against Fulham; indeed he may not feature too much in the others, if both Pienaar and A-E are available..
Worse, immed. after the ROI game on 8th, Spurs have four savage games in 14 days: Sunderland (A), AC Milan (A), Blackpool (A) and the Arse (H). I've no doubt Harry will do everything he can to have Bale fit for those games. Therefore I would be astonished if Bale travelled to Dublin. I would be even more surprised if Trap was unaware of all this - OK, he may not be a Spurs fan like me, but considering how much he's being paid, he can surely afford to have the English papers delivered...
P.S. As for Coleman, I was at the Everton/Spurs game, where he was truly excellent. Fair enough, a youngster like him must be unlikely to carry his current form right the way through a whole season until the Euro Qualifier game in June, so he might not be a real option by then. But he's absolutely flying at the moment, so what harm can there be in picking him to start against Wales, whether FB or MF, with Macedonia in mind?
Even to bring him on from the bench would be a bizarre waste (imo).
EG - Harry hasn't really looked after Bale this season and has ran him into the ground. I'm not surprised Bale is starting to fall apart. However if Bale does make a full recovery then you'd hope Bale would turn up for Gary Speed's first squad. Harry might do a Fergie and say Bale has picked up another knock of course just before the players depart for duty but you'd think that if Bale is fit he'd want to meet up with his new manager? I'd like to see him play of course, it would be a good test for our right hand side to see how they would cope.
Re Coleman I agree with you 100%. Coleman would be a breath of fresh air to a team which is running out of ideas and has regressed since the France game. However I fear our manager has other ideas....
Or, has no other ideas.....Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
I take your point but I don't think you can compare selections from the start of his tenure to now. Trap came in, clearly had little clue about players, picked some and stuck with them, regardless of injuries. Now he knows the players better and has many more options - even if McCarthy's better than nearly all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
As Geysir pointed out, McCarthy's just back from injury and I'd rather wrap him in cotton wool (and avoid a Meyler scenario) with the proviso he'll be picked next time, if fit. So, as with Stutts, I'm taking Trap at face value. If he doesn't get picked when 100% fit, then different story.
As for the Coleman thing, didn't Trap say he saw him primarily as a right back about four/five months ago? Is there any indication he might have changed his mind since? Will be interesting to see, but I just want him to start.
Rather harsh on Harry, on three counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
First, it is Harry who has turned Bale from a "promising young Full Back" as recently as 18 months ago, to a top quality Left Midfielder today.
Second, if you were in Harry's position i.e. "must-win" games following thick-and-fast since August, would you have the balls to leave him out? Anyhow, from what I've seen, Bale's current injury only occurred at the beginning of this month - he was full of running before then.
Third, having bought Pienaar as soon as he could in the window, Harry will be able to rest Bale.
Possible, I suppose, though 17 days is not a lot of time, even for a minor injury. Anyhow, whether genuinely injured or merely suffering from "Fergusonitis", I would lay good odds on Bale not being in Dublin.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
By the way Bale was talking recently about "Team GB" being his best chance of playing in a major international tournament etc, it's clear he is no misty-eyed dreamer. Which is not to say that he doesn't care about playing for Wales etc, but eg Giggs was patriotic enough and how many friendlies did he ever play for Wales, once established in the team? Three? Four?Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
As for Bale impressing his new manager etc, what is Speed going to do if Bale pulls out of the ROI game in unlikely circumstances? Never pick him again? Hardly...
I could well be wrong, but I think Coleman (and other youngsters like McCarthy?) are unlucky "victims" of Trap's overall strategy for the team, on two counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
First, it must be fairly obvious to Trap that the basic quality of the players at his disposal is inferior to what he's normally used to in Italy etc. Moreover, he hasn't got the time to work with them in training to make them better players, as he would with a club.
Second, there is a decent chance that he won't still be in charge after 2012, whether voluntarily or otherwise. Therefore he's not going to waste time developing youngsters like Coleman, for the sake of his own successor.
Consequently, he may be hoping that he can compensate for his core players' basic deficiencies by consistently sticking to the same, familiar selection/formation/tactics etc which have always served him well in the past.
Of course, one manager's "consistency" is another's "rigidity"....
Apologies if mentioned before but does anyone know if there are to be any tickets at the ground for the upcoming Scotland game or is it ticketmaster only?
Given the size of the small crowds expected, unless the FAI drastically change their admission policy, there'll be no problem getting in!
And know there'll be rakes of spare tickets floating about, even presuming the people made it there to offload them in the first place.....
I wouldn't give HR too much credit. Sure he only played Bale at LM because of necessity due to injuries at Spurs last season and was so so close to sending him to Nottm Forest. If Doughty (Forest chairman) and the acquisition panel weren't so careful with their pounds then Bale could be a Forest player!!Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Spurs have to realise that you cannot play the likes of Van Der Vaart and Bale every game if your serious about competiting on all fronts. The only top top player I've seen who doesn't really get rested nowadays and still looks the business is Messi. Anyway I'm going off track here talking about Spurs.
It's only a back twinge. A decent osteopath will have him sorted in a couple of days!Quote:
Possible, I suppose, though 17 days is not a lot of time, even for a minor injury.
The Trap is the original Mr rigid, hence there are a good few of us on here now starting to pull our hair out. It seems you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.Quote:
I could well be wrong, but I think Coleman (and other youngsters like McCarthy?) are unlucky "victims" of Trap's overall strategy for the team, on two counts.
First, it must be fairly obvious to Trap that the basic quality of the players at his disposal is inferior to what he's normally used to in Italy etc. Moreover, he hasn't got the time to work with them in training to make them better players, as he would with a club.
Second, there is a decent chance that he won't still be in charge after 2012, whether voluntarily or otherwise. Therefore he's not going to waste time developing youngsters like Coleman, for the sake of his own successor.
Consequently, he may be hoping that he can compensate for his core players' basic deficiencies by consistently sticking to the same, familiar selection/formation/tactics etc which have always served him well in the past.
Of course, one manager's "consistency" is another's "rigidity"....
I think EG said earlier that one managers consistency is anothers rigid(icy :D)ness, i dont think thats necessarily true. Not just in the case of trap, but you can be consistent and not be rigid, its how you are consistent that matters. Trap is not rigid, he has made changes when he needed to, but he hasn't necessarily made the right ones, or more importantly change his style and formation to accomodate the better players we have. He is rigid with his game-plan and formation of only setting us out as a 4-4-2 no matter what.
But he has not been consistent in some of the decisions( or at least what he has said to the media for the reasoning of these decisions). Not fitting mccarthy into the system is something i brought up ages ago with reasons, Trap yet hasn't done it, but he has been consistent in that its because he doesn't seem to think he fits into the 4-4-2, even if he says to the media that he would change the gameplan if we had the right players, again another form of incosistency, saying one thing and then not doing it. But not playing coleman, and almost to the same extent clark really doesn't fit in with the 1 point of consistency he has shown re: the former.
Trap could yet prove all us doubters wrong and play an attacking 4-5-1(4-3-3) against macedonia or he could wait until the last day for example when it really is too late and we play brilliantly, but alas too late - im not saying 4-5-1(4-3-3) is the saving grace, just an example of change that we may well need.
If Trap did play 4-4-3 I'd definitely say he was mad.
The McCarthy thing is genuinely worrying though.
what are you on about stutts?
I mean a 4-5-1 for example that can slip into a 4-3-3 on counter attack, but as i said just an example.
There is a lot more than just Mccarthy.
Lets not get started on his point about the leetle details and making sure we concede less(from silly mistakes/lack of concentration/not sticking to gameplan etc etc) or straight away after scoring....
OK I can't be arsed to find the squad in the thread so here it is again.
Given (Manchester City),
Westwood (Coventry),
O'Shea (Manchester Utd),
Clark (Aston Villa),
Coleman (Everton),
Dunne (Aston Villa),
St Ledger (Preston),
Foley (Wolves),
Kilbane (Huddersfield),
Kelly (Fulham),
O'Dea (Ipswich),
McShane (Hull),
Wilson (Stoke),
Gibson (Manchester Utd),
Whelan (Stoke),
Green (Derby),
Lawrence (Portsmouth),
Hunt (Wolves),
McGeady (Spartak Moscow),
Treacy (Preston),
Duff (Fulham),
Fahey (Birmingham City),
Keane (Tottenham),
Walters (Stoke),
Doyle (Wolves),
Long (Reading),
Keogh (Cardiff),
Best (Newcastle),
Stokes (Celtic).
rigidity... (sorry, it was really bothering me!)Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Hopefully some journo contacts McCarthy and Martinez over the coming days to find out what is going on. If McCarthy says he is OK to play and would like to have been selected (I have read/heard nothing that suggests otherwise) then we have a big problem.
I think the only people who should be talking to McCarthy are members of the FAI or his Irish teammates.
McCarthy has put up with a lot to declare for Ireland and I think he will stick by his word and play for us. A journalist annoying him with a question he's probably been asked a million times is not necessary.
I think this is a simple miscommunication/lack of communication issue, which is in itself inexcusable on Trap/the FAI's part, but if McCarthy is going to leave us on the back of one exclusion when he's just returning from injury, he's probably not the sort of player any team would want.
I've heard interviews with him and he seems very mature and intelligent. Hopefully he'll get a run of games with his club, and you never know who'll pull out before the game. Maybe if a player or two gets injured he'll get drafted in and all will be well.
Just simple mathematics Paul :)Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
McCarthy aside, the key now is to pick a useful team for Wales.
A back 4 of Foley-Dunne-O'Shea-Clark would go a long way to appeasing my disappointment about McCarthy, as would the selection of at least one of Wilson and Fahey in central midfield, maybe even both, and a bold selection upfront.
Kilbane and Green in the starting XI would exasperate me.
Trap has already said that Robbie will start because he needs a confidence boost and that Coleman will be a sub. I think we are looking at more of the same with very little learned to be honest
So much for the Celtic Cup being a 'useful exercise' for us....
We might as well go back to arguing about the politics of the event.
;)
Joke.
Though that would be more interesting!
Very disappointed if this is true and I have no reason to doubt you. I have a lot of time for Liam Lawrence but a cameo in a friendly is an insult to the progress Coleman has made. And if we're talking a sub appearance, it'l be late in the second half. I remember seeing an interview with him before the Norway game and he spoke like a player who had been guaranteed some game time. Trap's substitutions on the night undermined that and made him look like a right dreamer in retrospect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I dont have the quote as I read it in the Star but if was from his press conference the other day. He was saying something along the lines that Coleman is a right back and he didnt wanna start him against Bale so maybe O Shea would start there and we will see Coleman later in the gameQuote:
Originally Posted by Sullivinho
Thats exactly what he said. And Clark has a hamstring injury so not sure if he is going to join up with the squad. In reference to what Irishfan was saying I don't believe McCarthy has any intention of switching back to Scotland. I want a journo to ask him why did Trap not pick you. Hes not injured. Hes playing well an scoring. Why wait until a team with Green and Whelan messes up against Macedonia. This should be brought to a head now. It is a bizarre squad selection again and we are heading into swiss at home territory under Mick. Who honestly believes that the Irish team that starts against Macedonia will not feature Green, Whelan, Kilbane and Keane as captain?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Appears a lot of us are losing patience - Trapps next team selection will be a pivotal moment of his tenure as manager.
I think many of us want to see Clarke, Long, Coleman starting. I'd like to see Treacy again also.
There's a growing frustration amongst even the more moderate posters that the best team is not being given a chance to develop.
Back in May, it was apparent that the Paris '09 XI would be sufficient as a base for the Irish squad to build on. Throw in Cunningham at LB and gradually bring other players like McCarthy and Meyler into the set-up. It all seemed so simple, and Trap looked like he knew what he was doing. He included McCarthy, Cunningham and Meyler in the May friendly squad, and I looked forward to a smooth, easy transition.
However, since then, Given, Whelan and Keane have stagnated at their clubs, Lawrence has dropped a division, St. Ledger hasn't progressed at club level, and Andrews has been injured and may not get his place back with Blackburn. If the six I've mentioned were playing week-in-week-out, there wouldn't be too many issues. Trap has been very unlucky about what's happened to our experienced, senior players at their clubs. He can't help if players are dropped, or get injured. However, by persisting with Green, Gibson, Kilbane, O'Dea and McShane in the squad, he makes himself very hard to defend at times.
Trap's now in a situation where people will be baying for his blood unless he throws at least four hitherto-uncapped, under-23 players into the starting XI against Macedonia. And he won't do that - it'd be a huge risk for any international manager. McCarthy was quite progressive, but he always kept faith with Carsley, Holland, Breen, Gary Kelly etc, when fans and journos were crying for their heads. When we last qualified for the WC, it was a very experienced team with an average age of about 28 or 29, as it is for most teams who qualify for anything. However, youth seems like the only option now, since such misery surrounds our first-choice team. The Paris XI, playing regularly for their clubs, even with Kilbane at LB, would be good enough to beat Macedonia home and away, but unfortunately, that team seems to have fallen apart through injury and club circumstances, and Trap is being asked by the fans to build a new team mid-way through a campaign. A team with Cunningham, Clarke, Duffy, Coleman, Meyler and McCarthy playing together is mouth-watering for the future, but for Macedonia away in June?
A common-sense blend of youth and experience is the answer, and how well Trap manages that situation will define his tenure as Irish manager.
Great post Supreme Feet, but the timing of "how well Trap manages that situation" is critical. The home defeat and the careless manner in which we failed to kill off Slovakia leaves no margin for error in the next two games. We wasted an opportunity to try one or two fresh options in November and the smart money says that the Wales game will see a similar opportunity slip by. That means that come Macedonia no real plan B will have been looked at, though Long & Fahey have played themselves into the reckoning I suppose.
It is true that the Given, Keane, Andrews, Cunningham & Whelan situations were impossible to have foreseen, as was McCarthy's injury. You're also right that 5 or 6 youngsters playing against Macedonia is too risky, but players like Foley & Coleman are screaming for a decent look. I'm pretty sure Marc Wilson can run around and try in vain to tackle just as well as Green did against Russia.
We are playing Macedonia at home on the 26th of March. That is our next competitive match. And Trap is not being asked to build a team halfway through this campaign. He has had ample opportunities to play the young players mentioned but has either refused to pick them or not play them when they have been called up (and I'm talking about previous friendly games). We are talking here about players playing week in week out in the Premiership and Trap is overlooking them for players not playing for their clubs, or playing in the championship or 1st division. The list is endless. Its like what Giles said about Staunton's selections. "Turn the team sheet upside down and it would make more sense".Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet