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No wonder the Northern Exchequer is running on fumes.Quote:
Originally Posted by pól-dcfc
Maybe you are serious, maybe you're not.
I wasn't.
I don't know much about the £15m plan. I'd suspect that there been some behind the scenes negotiations with both NI and Irish Gov departments and an agreement of sorts already gained to go 50/50 on the 66% funding of the DC fc development.
.
How come when anyone posts in a contentious topic like this, he often has to spend time defending himself over what he doesn't think, or hasn't said, rather than what is actually in his posts? :rolleyes:
At no time since I started this thread have I e.g. denied or defended DCFC's deplorable treatment by the IL during the 1970's. But neither have I been in any way sectarian or bigoted in any post, something which I find grossly offensive, especially when coming from people who know nothing about me or my views on religion/politics. (Thanks, Kristic, Pol etc).
Neither am I blaming DCFC for other NI clubs being chronically underfunded (DCFC Steve).
I'm not saying the Dublin Government can't give money to whoever they like.
Nor do I "blame" DCFC for making an application to anyone who might be able to help, nor that their application is not frivolous and ill-thought out.
Nor do I ever object generally to seeing football clubs getting Government help; how could I? I'm a fan as well as a taxpayer myself.
As for this stuff about Dublin paying for roads etc in NI - I fail to see what that has to do with football, since this comes from entirely separate budgets, and is applied to entirely non-footballing purposes.
However, I do object on a number of serious grounds, which DCFC fans, in their haste to complain about me, are mostly ignoring or dismissing without much more reasoning than "We want the money, we're entitled to it, we've been hard done by in the past, so anyone who objects is a nasty bigot who can just f cuk off"
In fact, it is this sense of "entitlement", fuelled by historic grievances which (imo) are no longer relevant, which causes me to consider that DCFC are overstating their case on this one.
Specifically, this has the following elements.
1. The amounts being sought. I know people have brought up Institute FC receiving funding for floodlights fromn Dublin, but how much are we really talking about? £50k? That comes to 1% of what DCFC are seeking from Stormaont alone, or 0.5% when Dublin is added in. When you consider just how starved IL clubs have been in the past, this is bad enough, but does anyone seriously think that if/when other clubs in NI were to apply for anything similar, that they would get it? Or that e.g. Linfield or Glentoran would get £5m from Dublin? Someone mentioned LFC receiving an unspecified sum, on some unspecified date from Dublin in the past. But all I can think of is that this was in conjunction with work they are doing with Dundalk on a cross-border basis ("Dunfield").
2. DCFC fans keep bringing up the circumstances of their leaving the IL for the Eircom. Fair enough, they deserve sympathy over this but frankly, those days are long past. Their unique circumstances have been addressed by their being allowed to benefit from an unique case (for Ireland) of residing in one country, but playing in the other country's League.
3. However, by seeming to feel they're entitled for grant aid from two Governments and maybe even two Football Associations, this is far greater redress than is justified (imo) and would surely be a case of "the pendulum swinging too far the other way". If nothing else, it would give them an unfair advantage over all other clubs on the island, even greater than that other perennial bone of contention, Linfield's soaking of the IFA over the rental of Windsor for internationals. (Or does my anger over this make me a Prod-hating bigot, as well as a fenian-hater? :eek:). On which point, I will risk further shouts of "Bigot", by pointing out that if DCFC were to apply to rejoin the IL, then their case for substantial grant-aid from Stormont and/or the IFA would be immeasurably greater (imo). [At which point, before some of their fans' heads explode, I should reiterate that I hold no grudge against DCFC for joining the Eircom, or sticking with it even after they would be welcomed back into the IL]
4. In making their case for regeneration of the area, providing jobs etc, that's all very well, but for all that they point to deprivation around the Brandywell etc, is it really any worse than that around many other NI clubs? In the end, these are issues which imo should be sorted out by the appropriate agencies, charities, Govt.bodies etc. But even if you disagree, how much of this money being claimed will actually go towards housing, jobs, education, welfare, training etc? And how much will go towards building grandstands and covertly subsidising/releasing other funds for players' wages? I've no doubt that a lot of good things will be done with this money if allocated, but in the end, DCFC is a football club, and one which seeks to be a profitable, commercial venture (as is only proper). I am on the record as being utterly opposed to the proposed stadium at the Maze for a host of reasons, but at least I can see how there could be a benefit, however overpriced and overrated, for the whole of NI, rather than one individual club or organisation.
5. Which brings me to the aspect which most concerns me. At the end of the BBC Report, the DCFC Chairman was quoted as saying:
"If we don't get it [i.e. the funding], it's going to case serious problems as regards full-time football in Derry".
I'm sorry, but it should not be for Governments to subsidise f-t football, in Derry or anywhere else. In the end, if the city, either as part of the FAI set-up (or back in the IFA set-up) is incapable of supporting a full-time team, then it is not for the taxpayer to do so, or for the other clubs to sustain a correspondingly reduced share for themselves from the overall pot for football.
So your biggest concern is Pat McDaid's negotiation stance? :rolleyes:
Have you read the rest of the thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
Ealing Green's stance is perfectly reasonable in my opinion.
Who said it was the responsibility of any Gov to subsidise ft soccer in Derry? Certainly not the DCFC chairman. If that is your biggest concern, you haven't much of an argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
But you would be the last person to realize that, if at all.
There is a big difference between a "negotiating stance" [do you mean "tactic"] and a sense of unjustifiable entitlement i.e. we'll have to go part-time if the two Governments don't bale us out with taxpayers' money.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
Especially so when I suspect that that is his primary reason for this huge application, rather than the regeneration etc which may or may not accrue as a by-product.
P.S. That is my main concern, but it's hardly the only one. Did you read the rest of the post? Or am I only allowed one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Ealing Green,
The first three points are as you say a defence of what has gone before. Only points 4 and 5 are specific to this.
4. The economic appraisal produced by a third party is available- have a search for it. Within this comprehensive report the context of the area is comprehensively set. It sets out the levels of deprivation within the area, and surrounding area, using the statuatory measurements.
The whole reason the thing is costs so much is that BPT have to fufil the council brief, which was for the whole site, not just the pitch. The handy thing would be to retain as little of the 13 acres as required, then sell off the rest. Due to the issues surrounding the Honourable the Irish and the brief given by the council, this is not possible. Hence they have opted for a comprehensive regeneration project. The last I saw there would be 100 construction jobs and 50 full time jobs outside of the football club created by the project.
The stadium at the Brandywell will benefit the entire area, not just the football team. Hence the plan to include elements of the PfS scheme etc. The third generation pitches will be available to community groups for usage. One only has to look at the cross sport usage of 3rd generation pitches anywhere on this island to see the potential.
5. I can see where you are coming from, and I agree it is a poor quote.
However I think it is obvious to see what he means. We are hamstrung in what we can offer sponsors etc in the current stadium, and this means that we can't maximise our commercial potential. This means that volunteers are busting their balls to keep the club competitive.
Look at the facilities that even the Glens can offer compared to Derry. I have been in for a pre match function before the Setanta game and it was light years ahead of what we have got.
As you say, it is up to the club to make full time football viable.
From Ealing Green's opening post on this thread - a direct quote from McDaid.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
If Derry are having trouble sustaining first team football by themselves, I don't think cash handouts are the best way to remedy the situation - in fact, I don't think it is a remedy at all.Quote:
"If we don't get it, it's going to cause serious problems as regards full-time football in the city of Derry."
And, if this is all about the regeneration project, as the Derry fans keep saying, why is McDaid talking about full-time football at all? How is it connected to the regeneration project to create employment and facilities in the Brandywell area?
Maribor, thanks for a reasoned response. I agree with all of the above quote, but I don't anybody could say Derry are unique in this regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maribor
If that wasn't the clear implication of mcDaid's comment, why did he say it? Without this grant aid, there is no reason why a lesser sum could not be adequate to bring the Brandywell up to the level, say, of Solitude or Shamrock Park, or even Mournview, after their current renovations, which are being achieved with considerably less public money than DCFC feel entitled to.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Why should DCFC get NI taxpayers money in order to allow them to "keep up with the Jones's" in the Eircom League? Why should they get ROI taxpayers money to redevelop a club in an area outwith Dublin's jurisdiction?
If they want to compete with the Eircom, they should do so on the same terms as the other Eircom clubs i.e. assistance from one Government, one Association.
Otherwise, if they are to be treated as an NI club, then the same conditions should prevail as are applied to other NI clubs. of course, this latter might mean their having to go part-time. And we couldn't have that, could we? :eek:
How does DC's £5 million bid compare with those from IL clubs (most of whom will have smaller grounds, likely needing less cash to fully refurb them)? What's the likely total budget? Whether you, I and other IL/ NI fans like it, Derry fans and others will look at the White Elephant Maze cost estimates, and think their own are very modest.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Agreed this is no longer really relevant. Everyone agrees DC were badly treated and resolution too long delayed- but playing in FAI and UEFA competitions IS that resolution. Let's move on :)Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Strictly, it's the government they pay taxes to and the FA whose competitions they strengthen. And while DC's move to the FAI/LOI was for forced political reasons, isn't there a parallel with say, Berwick Rangers who play in Scotland while remaining in England? They presumably can apply to both the SFA and English local authorities.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Isn't the way around this an agreement that the money go on specific facilities which then get community use (buildings. pitch etc.)? Which, by the same token, might save on other government budgets for the things you mention.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Agreed. DC might go the way of Shels. That would be unfortunate, but they can't reasonably expect unqualified support from anywhere outside the club and city, surely?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
What shall we do a Coleraine and make up work to be done then.......:rolleyes:
Did you just ignore what I said about having to fufil the council brief for the whole site......Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Thank you, Maribor, for a reasoned and reasonable response. I have to say that the guts of £10m of taxpayers money is a hell of a sum for 50 full-timne jobs, especially since the days of Governments pumping money into private commercial enterprises to sustain employment (e.g. De Lorean) are long gone. And do we know how many of these will be jobs as employees of DCFC?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maribor
It seems to me that your club does have a gripe, but it is with your local Council who are being unhelpful, not anyone in the Stormont, never mind NI football. Therefore, it should not be for the NI/UK/ROI taxpayer to sort this out.
In the end, this will be an amenity for Derry (and the North West, to a lesser extent). Therefore, it should be local government i.e. Derry City Council, to fund this regeneration of their own area. After all, they have apparently been more than generous with local ratepayers' property in helping out a couple of local GAA clubs.
Otherwise, they should be funded from football sources, via the appropriate Association (whether FAI or IFA, but not both). Were it to be the latter, I recall (I think on this site, from An Fear Beag?) a post where he praised the IFA for their assistance to Cliftonville in redeveloping Solitude. The sum there was just over £1m iirc.
Whataboutery, there, I feel. Two wrongs don't make a right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maribor
An Fear Dearg (the Wee Red?).
My services as Gaelic interpreter are available at our next game in the Republic. I can do colors, place names and the RTE kids TV I watched as as a student.
No, it crossed in cyberspace! I didn't even see your post at that stage, since I was in the process of addressing the quotation you selected to Geysir's post!Quote:
Originally Posted by Maribor
For my response to you, see my reply #153
The Red Man, near enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
That's because I'm from the 'Bogside' EG.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Well I'm not, I actually live about 4 miles away but it's all the same to you isn't it??
Even when after 1 post you are informed that the Bogside and the Brandywell are 2 different areas, you again went on to moan about the 'Bogside' getting double funding.
How else am I to react???
You need to scrub-up on your knowledge of mammals though - An Fear Dearg (Dhearg ?) means 'The Red Man'....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
:D
I'm sure EG wouldn't mind if you mentioned in passing that he came from Brentford...or Leitrim :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Krstic
Thanks for the corrections above. I got my Fir/ Fear and Fawr mixed up. One of those might be Welsh and not mean wee. My coat? Thanks...