Northern players declaring for the Republic

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Just on one point, the NI lads here seem to indicate that tapping up occurs and that the FAI only taps up catholic/nationalist lads. The FAI say no tapping up occurs.

So if it is happening, how do you know they're not tapping up Prod/Unionist lads? Maybe they're approached and say nothing (unless you think that only Baird/McKenna were approached on turned it down) Oh and as we're on this not labelling people with religions based on names, how do you know the leanings of those two?

Unless of course the FAI aren't tapping up players and the lads do just want to play for 'their country'

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I can't say for certain that "tapping up" occurs, but it seems pretty obvious to me why neither party would wish to disclose its existence if it did occur, so proof is inevitably difficult to provide. However, the circumstantial "evidence" which I've outlined elsewhere leads me to believe this may have started in the last few years.
If I'm correct, I can see why the FAI would be reticent about approaching Prod/Unionists since not only are they less likely to be receptive, but they are more likely to blow the whistle.
However, for more substantial evidence, I've seen comments made by Chris Baird and Kieran McKenna in interviews a while back, which clearly indicated approaches (I don't have details immediately to hand), even whilst they were committed to NI.
As for "labelling" these two, Baird (who has a "Planter" surname, I think) is a former GAA player from Rasharkin, so it's safe to assume that he is from a Catholic/Nationalist background and McKenna's family lives in my part of the world, so I can confidently state this his background is also Catholic/Nationalist.
Not that I give a stuff about the background or religious or political persuasions of any NI player, just that they give 100% in the Green shirt.

Btw, in a recent interview, Chris Baird made the following comment which, as one of the Copenhagen 3000, brought a lump to my throat:

Chris also heaped praise on the ever growing GAWA, 3,000 of whom travelled to Denmark recently.

“The support over the past few years has been unbelievable,” stated Chris.

“A full house at Windsor makes as much noise as 30,000 fans and that type of support makes you want to work even harder on the pitch.

“Sometimes in a break in play at home games we (the players) just look around at the whole ground doing the ‘bouncy’ and it’s an absolutely amazing sight.

“Support like that really does make a difference and if we could make in to Euro 2008, imagine what the fans would be like then!”

Euro 2008 - I know we shouldn't dream, but what about it, eh? It would be sooooo good to see an Irish team in Austria and Switzerland, don't you think? ;)

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Euro 2008 - I know we shouldn't dream, but what about it, eh? It would be sooooo good to see an Irish team in Austria and Switzerland, don't you think? ;)

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if there's a crown or a union flag involved, it's not an Irish team as far as i am concerned. while i dont claim to speak for my fellow Irish on here there's a hell of a lot of others who agree...

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Euro 2008 - I know we shouldn't dream, but what about it, eh? It would be sooooo good to see an Irish team in Austria and Switzerland, don't you think? ;)

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Don't think we will qualify man to be honest sure we've had some bad results at the start of these qualifiers, against Cyprus in particular.

The Republic will still finish in a better position and with more points than the North by the end of the campaign. Of this I'm 100% sure. Their fans seem to conveniently forget the fact that they've played 3 of their last 4 games at home and will lose all the corresponding fixtures away. I predict a crashing back to reality soon enough.

The North are nowhere near the standard required to reach a final nowadays. Sorry to break the bad news.

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Originally Posted by geysir

There's an enduring image of Willie John McBride's last game for Ireland. Some guy ran on to the field and wrapped a tricolour around his shoulders. Willie left it on, took the gesture for what it was worth and strolled off the pitch to a loud ovation.

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Aye, a big man, in every respect of the word, and no-one ever represented Ireland with more pride than him. As an interesting aside, however, I'd love to witness the conversation where Merc 67 puts it to Willie John that he's no "Brit"!

I guess the response might be something similar to that which he gave in what was perhaps my favourite sporting quotation of all time.

From the Lions Tour of South Africa in 1974:

Victory assured and their unbeaten record intact, the Lions embarked on the mother of all Lions' parties on the night of the third Test in their Port Elizabeth hotel. Much furniture was splintered ("inadvertently") and many fire extinguishers were set off ("accidentally") before the hotel manager, seeing his beloved lobby disappearing under six feet of water, stormed off in search of the skipper.

He would have knocked on McBride's bedroom door except the bedroom in question had been without a door for some days after the captain, returning from a night on the Port Elizabeth tiles without a key and finding the night porter in unhelpful mode, removed said door - and door frame - "with a couple of gentle dunts".

"Mr McBride," railed the manager, "your players are wrecking my hotel."

"Are there many dead?" inquired the great man, puffing contentedly on his pipe and sitting cross-legged and naked but for his Y-fronts on top of the bed.

"I want every one of you locked up. The police are on their way."

"And tell me," puffed McBride with a proud smile as the mayhem continued unabated below, "these police of yours - will there be many of them?"

The rest of that article should give some food for thought on Irishness, Britishness, Sport and Politics generally to some of the more rabid posters here ;)

http://www.2005lions.net/misc_mcbride97.shtml

He must have been a Brit so if his idea of good fun is thrashing places up abroad :)

[QUOTE=Merc67;563702][QUOTE=Not Brazil;563697]

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Originally Posted by Merc67

would you be both palestinian and israeli too? this is a joke. if you are basing it simply on geography then your entitled to make such a weak argument, but the ignorance with which you are throwing the argument around makes me think of those yanks who claim ulster scots heritage:)
how can you be both an occupier and the occupied? oh no, youre not the occupied are you? ffs.
your claim is based on the patronising, superiority complex of the english (the ones who really started up this british ****, and to whom all others in the UK are inferior, really) that ireland is part of their land.
it is not, it may have been for a time, but it is not now. you are one or the other fella, though you want to be both for whatever reason...

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Merc67,

I have told you clearly, and repeatedly, how I identify.

You can try to tell me what I am and what I am not all you like - you can rant about England this, Brits that all you like.

You can insult me with your "occupier" charges until the cows come home.

I know what I am - you might like that, accept that or agree with it.

But, at the end of the day, I'm proudly Irish and proudly British.

I make no apology for what I am.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Why has this trend descended into a Northern Ireland British or Irish argument? I personally don't care if EalingGreen and Not Brazil consider themselves British - that is their right if they choose. Equally I don't understand the gripe they have against some players born in Northern ireland representing the Republic if they consequently don't see themselves as British.

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I have no gripe whatsoever with young players from Northern Ireland electing to play for the Republic on account of them not seeing themselves as British.

My gripe is that they should decide who they want to play for earlier than has been the case recently.

Thousands of kids here would give their right arm to pull on a Northern Ireland shirt - to see it rejected by those who have worn it until they are 19/20 years of age irks me.

Would it irk you as much if you knew they didn't want to play for your senior side but did?

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Originally Posted by Paulie

I don't know if this was posted before but it seems Northern Ireland was not Neil Lennon's first choice......
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns...rope25&cc=5739

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For brevity, I'll not repeat the quotation, but as an NI fan, I have absolutely no problems with what he said - he is merely saying what he feels in an honest manner.

For the record, I was not at the Norway game when a minority (my brother estimates 2-300) of the crowd booed Lennon for just having signed for Celtic.
Anyhow, that made my mind up for me that I would fly back to the next game (v the Ukraine), to show my support.
It is rarely reported that Lennon was roundly cheered by the home fans every time he touched the ball in that game.
I have no doubt that a few meatheads, who don't always attend NI matches, turned up specifically for the Norway game to have a go at Lennon. They weren't there at the Ukraine game, where the crowd was equally determined to try to reverse the damage.
Anyhow, to his credit, Lennon was to play another three matches for NI after Norway, which indicates he had shrugged it off.

Then, of course, we had the moron and the telephoned death threat which I, and most of my fellow NI fans, consider to be the worst moment ever experienced in following our team.
However, the silver lining was that it finally convinced everyone that we HAD to stand up to the knuckle-draggers in our midst, no matter how difficult. This was the catalyst for the the process whereby we are now generally recognised by open-minded observers as being a decent bunch, all things considered. (I loathe the "Best Supporters in the World" ****e, btw)
As such, the lining has now pretty much become the cloud, as Lennon generously acknowledged himself, the other day.

(Then again, some would argue that with 39 caps for the Occupied Six, Lennon was never more than a West Brit himself, anyhow...;))

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The rest of that article should give some food for thought on Irishness, Britishness, Sport and Politics generally to some of the more rabid posters here

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im sure that wasnt for me:) but no, it didnt do that at all, though it is a good article.

notice that its the british and irish lions:) they are two different things!

as for willie mc, ive yet to meet him personally, when i do ill post the resultant 'chat' on here:)

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Originally Posted by Merc67

in the first link you sent there is also mention of somene havign a 'nationality' forced upon them by the governing association. i think that would be the case here.

there is a debate over nationality here, it cannot be judged outside that light...

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I assume that applies to the breakup of a country eg former Yugoslavia or Soviet Union.

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Originally Posted by gspain

I assume that applies to the breakup of a country eg former Yugoslavia or Soviet Union.

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do you not think it applies here? a kid has an Irish passport, but theyre telling him they dont want him to play for that country....

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Why has this trend descended into a Northern Ireland British or Irish argument? I personally don't care if EalingGreen and Not Brazil consider themselves British - that is their right if they choose. Equally I don't understand the gripe they have against some players born in Northern ireland representing the Republic if they consequently don't see themselves as British.

I don't believe the other argument that the FAI are operating clandestine operations in the North and brainwashing loyal young players to abandon their country of birth in an X-Files like conspiracy plot is the reason their players are 'defecting' so to speak. The whole Britishness of the NI team is undoubtedly the reason that the majority of these young players don't feel it represents their interests.

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I've posted it many times before on this site, but I do not object if someone born in NI opts to represent the ROI.
My gripe, for reasons which I've posted elsewhere, is thatthe FAI may now be tapping up young players who have been developed by the IFA and who were formerly happy to represent NI under-age teams.
As I've indicated, I've no concrete proof that is happening, but it seems pretty obvious why such evidence is unlikely to be easily uncovered, since it is in the interest of both parties to keep it concealed.
What I have done is listed the circumstantial and anecdotal evidence which I've seen.
I would add one final (new) point. Considering the enormous lengths the FAI (or "Find An Irishman" as it was dubbed) went to in the 80's & 90's to unearth Irish qualified players in GB, now that this may be drying up somewhat, don't you think it would be astonishing if they would presently ignore possible young players from up the road in NI, especially when at least some of them would be amenable to an approach?
What do you want? A Photograph*?

(* - Sorry, that's Big Ian's speciality)

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Originally Posted by crc

The southern state has successfully sold itself to most Irish people and the world as the only legitimate version, but this simply isn't the truth.

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possibly not the 'only legitimate version' but definately the closest available. the country is governed by a democraticly elected government with citizens(as opposed to subjects of the ruling monarch) who are of the country and directly responsible for the fate of the land. the kink IMO is that the country is partitioned. however those on the northern side of the ' border ' are still operating under the rule of london.

this "i'm irish and british" line we are being fed by the OWC men & NI supporters on this thread is nonscence. the truth is that people in the 6 counties who class themselves as british can justifibly call themselves northern irish and british if they feel fit (i mightn't like it but if it's their want) but you'll generally find that people from the 6 counties who do not class themselves as british will just describe themselves as irish and not some hybred type of nationality.

consquently, if we can go back to the subject matter of this thread, if these people now feel that they want to play for the country that most closely represents their ancestorial and cultural heritage they should be allowed to do so.

if our OWC friends can move away from the cunning ruggers smoking pipes on their beds stories long enough and accept that to the dislike of a number of people on both sides of the boarder that there is a state called northern ireland where some of the peoples believe that they are british then it must also be accepted that there are people in that state who feel 100% irish and not one iota british as their ancestorial background has only recently come under the rule of the crown.

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Originally Posted by Merc67

if there's a crown or a union flag involved, it's not an Irish team as far as i am concerned. while i dont claim to speak for my fellow Irish on here there's a hell of a lot of others who agree...

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Sweet Mother of God...:eek:

lopez,

"The excuse that NI is in the UK and must wrap itself in the paraphanalia of unionism is rubbish"

You are being rather selective in your reading.

You have failed to recognise and head what myself and Ealing Green have consistently stated on this thread.

We both favour the "paraphanalia of unionism" being dropped at Northern Ireland representative matches ie, essentially a new sporting anthem and a new flag.

"Unionism is a combination of being Irish and British, but it relegates one national identity to that of a regional, birthplace form of patriotism and the other to their true nationalism. It is the true nationalism to which they wish their country to physically belong (BTW: This isn't a religion thing, although in NI it lends itself mostly to one religion or the other)"

Unionism is a political ideal. My Irishness and my Britishness are my birthright.

"Northern Ireland as an entity remaining as it is, is not a prerequiste to unification. I'd fully support NI retaining huge autonomy in return for Irish unification"

Unification will not come about by telling people born and bred in Northern Ireland what they are and what they are not.

Even in a so called "united" Ireland, I will be Irish and British. What's more, any "Eire Nua" would fully respect, and uphold, that.

British identity on this island is not going away anytime soon.

"As you accept, playing for the ROI is a political choice to play for one's nation"

Yes, that's correct.


"Full recognition of both communities at matches. Flying both the UJ or 6C flag and the Tricolour or at the very least the flag of Ulster. Seeing you insist on GSTQ, then have the SS there aswell"

I don't "insist" on GSTQ. I would like a distict Northern Irish anthem - akin to those pertaining to Scotland and Wales. A new flag also, for sporting occassions.

"I'm an Irish citizen born and bred in England. I feel no loyalty to this country. I do not support any of its sporting teams or wars that it likes to campaign in the name of 'freedom.' The Union Jack is more offensive to me than the swatika because it is an irredentist rag which displays its occupation of my country. I would never, ever call myself English or British, not even to point score on an English football forum"

Good for you - I respect your identity.

I identify somewhat differently to you.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Don't think we will qualify man to be honest sure we've had some bad results at the start of these qualifiers, against Cyprus in particular.

The Republic will still finish in a better position and with more points than the North by the end of the campaign. Of this I'm 100% sure. Their fans seem to conveniently forget the fact that they've played 3 of their last 4 games at home and will lose all the corresponding fixtures away. I predict a crashing back to reality soon enough.

The North are nowhere near the standard required to reach a final nowadays. Sorry to break the bad news.

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As I said in my post, we shouldn't dream...;)

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Originally Posted by Merc67

notice that its the british and irish lions:) they are two different things!

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Like myself, I'm quite sure Willie John and many other Lions would identify as British AND Irish.;)

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Would it irk you as much if you knew they didn't want to play for your senior side but did?

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I only want to see players wearing the green shirt of the Irish Football Association who are totally committed to giving 100% for the honour of that shirt.

I think all our senior players currently do the shirt proud on that score.;)

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I only want to see players wearing the green shirt of the Irish Football Association who are totally committed to giving 100% for the honour of that shirt.

I think all our senior players currently do the shirt proud on that score.;)

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Obviously. And I'm delighted for you/them.

But, given these two options ONLY, would you prefer a player to play for NI youths and then declare for the republic OR play for NI youths, want to declare for the republic but be stopped, and then play for NI senior side knowing he wants to play for the Republic?