NI Passports

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What I was trying to test was the level to which NB was prepared to go to assert his Irishness having stated so clearly that he is Irish and British in equal measure...it smacks of pandering to the crowd to hear someone so clearly label both parts of his identity as equal but subsume one completely in the other when it comes to activating citizenship

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The thing is, seeking Republic of Ireland citizenship wouldn't make him, or me, any more Irish because we are already 100% Irish. We are citizens of a country that includes part of Ireland. Now of course not everyone in that country is/ need be Irish, if they come from Swansea, Dundee or Norwich- but we are. It's quite simple and isn't likely to change. NB can be just as Irish not seeking citizenship as you can not living in the Blasket islands.

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It puts modern Ireland to shame that the people that make up two such similar traditions are still fighting over the minor differences that exist between them, rather than celebrating the commonalities. Maybe our children and theirs will make more headway still in sorting this mess out

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Well, I'm not fighting, just arguing gently. Essentially all that's happening is that you (nationalists, the RoI constitution etc.) are generously offering citizenship, and we're politely declining it. What's the problem? There are wider issues in NI of course, but why assume NB and I are part of them?
On the constitution, try looking at a mirror image of it (a converse paradigm?). If the British state announced that everyone from Moville to Mallow was a British citizen, there'd be outrage: and not all of it exaggerated.

You must realise that some unionists would be offended by such an offer.
There are some aspects of RoI constitution and legislation that I dislike, a lot. The recent restriction on citizenship excluding some Irish-born children is prejudiced, probably racist. I'm already a citizen of one regressive country, so on that issue at least why join another?

And suppose, notionally, that sometime in the future the RoI introduced an equivalent to conscription that caused such waves during the 1914-18 War. Our kids, like yours, might find themselves working/ arguing/ fighting for a cause that means nothing to them. (Of course I'm not suggesting Ireland will become like Israel or Iraq anytime soon, but you can see the principle).

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That would be to make the cardinal mistake of defining Unionism exclusively in terms of what is isn't

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OK, but my point was basically that many people in RoI, and northern nationalists, do genuinely seem to think that unionists are unionists largely because some on the fringe of nationalism are so extreme in their views. Well, obviously they are in some cases, but otherwise many of us are like the Swedes and Danes, or whoever. Not at war these past hundreds of years, but still self-defining and recognisable as different.

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so will the IRFU be insisting Ulster players now get an irish passport?

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I think many of them have South African/ Kiwi/ Fijian passports!

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Originally Posted by Strabane_Harp

so will the IRFU be insisting Ulster players now get an irish passport?

FIFA's decision is a disgrace, i would consider it a great insult for someone to tell me i am a british subject, i was born in ireland making me irish, ive only ever been to britain a few times

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Whilst not agreeing with FIFA's decision you are not comparing like with like. The Ireland rugby team represents two countries under different jurisdictions whereas the Northern Ireland football team only represents one country and that country is under British jurisdiction.

It's a bit ironic that players for an IRISH FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION representative side are prohibited from using Irish passports don't you think?

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

It's a bit ironic that players for an IRISH FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION representative side are prohibited from using Irish passports don't you think?

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No. The players are using 'Irish' passports (of sorts), just not 'Irish' passports of the Republic of Ireland. The ones they are using are passports of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


As a follow up to Gather round's eloquent post, you must get past the notion that there is only one conception of Irishness - the conception that many in Ireland (north and south) have successfully convinced themselves (and the rest of the world) that only the Green, Leprechaun, diddly-dee, GAA, republican, etc, version of Irishness is valid.

This is a fallacy. There are many other strands of Irishness (including, but not limited to, the British heritage of some, the Orange tradition, or the emigré community) and unhelpfull too. This is why Paisley can call himself Irish without an ounce of hypocracy, or why Linfield proudly boasted last year that they were 'Champions of Ireland', or why David Healy's goal against England was so fantastic.

FWIW, I am a committed Nationalist, and I would love to see a united Ireland, but the whole thing would be futile if we think that such a united Ireland would ignore the legitimate identity of so many people. Those twits who think that Unionists are just 'Brits on extended holiday' would want to catch themselves on.

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Originally Posted by crc

No. The players are using 'Irish' passports (of sorts), just not 'Irish' passports of the Republic of Ireland. The ones they are using are passports of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


As a follow up to Gather round's eloquent post, you must get past the notion that there is only one conception of Irishness - the conception that many in Ireland (north and south) have successfully convinced themselves (and the rest of the world) that only the Green, Leprechaun, diddly-dee, GAA, republican, etc, version of Irishness is valid.

This is a fallacy. There are many other strands of Irishness (including, but not limited to, the British heritage of some, the Orange tradition, or the emigré community) and unhelpfull too. This is why Paisley can call himself Irish without an ounce of hypocracy, or why Linfield proudly boasted last year that they were 'Champions of Ireland', or why David Healy's goal against England was so fantastic.

FWIW, I am a committed Nationalist, and I would love to see a united Ireland, but the whole thing would be futile if we think that such a united Ireland would ignore the legitimate identity of so many people. Those twits who think that Unionists are just 'Brits on extended holiday' would want to catch themselves on.

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Excellent post.

I for one am very proud to be Irish(Northern Irish). It may be a different type to the Irish that many others see as Irish. I was born on this Island and am Irish but have no interest in ROI citizenship. If I was aloud a NI passport I would be one of the first to queue at the passport office. But quess Im living in dream world.

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Originally Posted by Dassa

Very good post. I for one am very proud to be Irish(Northern Irish). It may be a different type to the Irish that many others see as Irish. I was born on this Island and am Irish but have no interest in ROI citizenship. If I was aloud a NI passport I would be one of the first to queue at the passport office. But quess Im living in dream world.

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If you'd read the rest of Gonzo's posts on this Dassa, you'd probably be less inclined to agree with him on anything...! :eek:

That's the first coherent one he's managed in weeks.

His others have more accurately resembled a Republican version of Ian Paisley, with all his ranting and raving against "Brits" and "Prods".

Still - at least he seems to have opened his mind somewhat as the debate has progressed, which is to be welcomed.

The big hole in Fifa's ruling appears to be
"The fact that a player holds an Irish Republic passport does not demonstrate conclusively, that he or she is eligible to play for Northern Ireland." On the surface, Maik Taylors's British passport has a 50/1 chance of eligibility.
Is there some reasoning behind Fifa's ruling?
There is no way it would be accepted that a player born in NI, declaring for Ireland would forward a British passport to match officials.
Has the following statement any validity?
"An Irish Republic passport of a player born in Northern Ireland and entitled to Irish and British citizenship in accordance with article 1 paragraph V1 and in connection with the Good Friday Agreement annex 2, does not specify that this person has a birthright to hold British citizenship.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

If you'd read the rest of Gonzo's posts on this Dassa, you'd probably be less inclined to agree with him on anything...! :eek:

That's the first coherent one he's managed in weeks.

His others have more accurately resembled a Republican version of Ian Paisley, with all his ranting and raving against "Brits" and "Prods".

Still - at least he seems to have opened his mind somewhat as the debate has progressed, which is to be welcomed.

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My mistake I meant to quote the other statement above it thanks for bringing to my attention my own post steve,feel abit :o meant to quote CRC.

Under the Good Friday Agreement , it is implied that NI people are entitled to use either or. So why doesn't that satisfy FIFA?

Not Brazil

If you are living in this jurisdiction you have every right to select the Irish president should you decide to exercise your franchise on that occasion. Your rights as a born citizen of Ireland can be fully exercised. And you are entitled to use either passport and I voted for the Good Friday Agreement and the COnstitutional Referendum which followed to guarantee that right to you and the other 1.75 million inhabitants of the Wee North .

You are Irish, so is David Ervine and so is Ian Paisley. I have no issue with your "Irishness" what so ever. You are also British and therefore can exercise both citizenships as and when necessary for you.
My problem with the FIFA ruling is that it is diminishing the rights of the players of the Wee North to both forms of citizenship!

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Under the Good Friday Agreement , it is implied that NI people are entitled to use either or. So why doesn't that satisfy FIFA?

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Its more than implied, its clearly stated and afaik the GFA agreement is in UK law.
The Uk passport says Britain and NI. the Irish passport has no reference to its holder being allowed to be a British citizen. UK passport means citizenship, Irish passport does not mean British citizenship.

I haven't a clue why they were so dissatisfied in the first place. It's been around for donkey's years. You'd think that they get use to their territory and the individual quirks, like a postman does with his rounds. All you need to add to the officials paperwork is a footnote. The picture painted of confused officials doesn't quite add up to making this fuss.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

My problem with the FIFA ruling is that it is diminishing the rights of the players of the Wee North to both forms of citizenship!

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This is the one thing that it doesn't do - and therefore the main way round the rule that has been created.

The FIFA ruling states that, in order to play for NI, you must be able to present a British passport. It doesn't say that you can't also hold an Irish passport - so it has zero diminishing impact upon the right of players to both forms of citizenship.

Regardless - passports are nothing but an internationally-accepted document that proves a right to citizenship. There is a well-trodden statistic of how low the passport take-up rate is in the US - but that has no impact whatsoever upon citizenship rights for those people entitled to one who have yet to activate that entitlement.

There's nothing FIFA could do to diminish someone's citizenship rights in this situation - bar altering their personal and/or ancestral history.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Regardless - passports are nothing but an internationally-accepted document that proves a right to citizenship. There is a well-trodden statistic of how low the passport take-up rate is in the US - but that has no impact whatsoever upon citizenship rights for those people entitled to one who have yet to activate that entitlement.

There's nothing FIFA could do to diminish someone's citizenship rights in this situation - bar altering their personal and/or ancestral history.

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Well none of those US citizens would be allowed play for the National team home or away without a passport. It is required to have the document and to present it to the referee before you will be allowed participate in any interntional fixture. The drill is as follows the team sheet is completed by a team official with the full names as shown on the passport of each player, as well as their dates of birth and is signed by the captain.
The team sheets( for both teams) complete with a passport for each of the names therein is presented to the referee. This takes place approximately 1 hour before kick-off. The referee and or one of the assistants or 4th official. The match official will check each one and then the passports are returned to the respective teams and copies of the team sheets are then returned to the teams officials. Each official gets a photo/carbon copy of the other sides team sheet.

I have been involved on committees in running mini-qualification tournaments
for UEFA and the same rules apply whether it is Senior , under age internationals or Champions League games and UEFA Cup games male or female.

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Originally Posted by gonzo

The only flaw I have with the GFA is that it was too woolly & 'fluffy', given that it should allow for Irish or Brit.Citizenship for the Northern population.
As mentioned before, why anyone, except with a very confused sense of personal identity, would want to be 'both' which is beyond the scope of most normal citizens.
You should be either one or the other, as in reality the practicalities of joint 'citizenship' haven't exactly been over-subscribed to!

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What about ethnic minorities in Ireland like all the Italian chip shop owners. Should they stop speaking Italian? I suppose they're entitled to Italian passports.

I think if United Ireland ever came to pass we would have to recognise that Unionists and Loyalists have an affinity with Britain. As a a symbolic act the newly united Ireland would join the Commonwealth.

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Originally Posted by totalfootball

I have no problem with some people wanting dual citizenship, nor do I mind Unionists, who don't possess Irish citizenship, calling themselves Irish.

However, as an anti-imperialist, anti not just British imperialism, but American, French, Belgian, Italian, etc., imperialism, I can think of no good reason whatsoever for Ireland to join the Commonwealth. The British Empire is not something that should be celebrated or perpetuated, but something that all right-thinking people should oppose. If I were British I would be thoroughly ashamed to see that my country continues to give out 'honours' like the OBE, the MBE, etc., where the clear implication is that you should be 'honoured' to be an imperialist! Truely amazing! Nothing has changed, as the invasion of Iraq proves. The day Ireland joins the imperialist organisations like the Commonweath or starts joining in imperialist wars of agression against sovereign nations who have resources we want to steal, is the day I will stop supporting the Irish football team.

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Best post in this whole sordid thread.

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Originally Posted by Krstic

Best post in this whole sordid thread.

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What's sordid about it? :confused: I have used this thread to learn more about what Irishness means to different people and have found it quite enlightening.

One man's meat is another man's poison, I suppose...

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by totalfootball

If I were British I would be thoroughly ashamed to see that my country continues to give out 'honours'...Nothing has changed, as the invasion of Iraq proves. The day Ireland joins the imperialist organisations...is the day I will stop supporting the Irish football team.

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The order of the British empire is anachronistic and silly, but worse happens. And while the war dragging on in Iraq is indeed shameful, why should anyone stop supporting a football team because of it?

TF: I think the OBE's anachronistic because the Empire dismantled pretty quickly after 1947, and now it's completely gone.

Britain is no longer a World power. It's a/the strong(est) supporter of venal American policy in Iraq, which I agree is indefensible.

The OBE medals are just baubles. I'd prefer they were abolished, but I honestly don't think it's a big issue.

The hospital cleaner receiving one is providing the same largely selfless effort whatever the gong's called, surely?

Let's not be too precious about Irish anti-imperialism. Of course it exists and is respected, but there isn't a league table. Irish made up a large proportion of the British empire's forces; fought on both sides in the Spanish civil war; help to make up 'peacekeeping' forces in other countries where they aren't universally welcomed by the locals; and until quite recently had a constitutional claim on part of another country!

Blair, Trimble, Paisley etc. are knobs. I acknowledge but didn't elect any of them. I chose to support the NI football team. There's a big difference.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

until quite recently had a constitutional claim on part of another country!

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And you were doing so well until you got to that bit! ;) :D

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by totalfootball

I don't think I am being romantic or unrealistic about Irish anti-imperialism - I am very aware, for example, that although Ireland did not participate actively in the invasion of Iraq, it effectively supports it.

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Very true. I have emailed bertie and others several times about our exact involvment including the transport of White Phosphorus chemical weapons through Shannon airport numerous times. I've been fobbed of to the Minister for Transport every single time.

I'd be disgusted if Ireland joined the Commonwealth tbh. The Commonwealth is a sham. They tolerated South Africa during appartide (sp?) for years. I don't want to be in that gang.