Danish Newspaper Cartoons

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Originally Posted by jebus

Thats not relevant at all in my opinion, we ran the world single-handedly back then so obviously there would be mistakes made and idiots put in power, i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Thatcher and De Valera (:D ) but I shudder to think, given what generally passes for justice and common decency in arab countries what kind of world we would be living in today had the history of the world turned out differantly and made them the dominant race. For one thing I don't think we'd have so many Left Wing Nazis running around with their usual spiel of 'everyone's allowed an opinion, but if it differs from ours in the slightest than you're just a bigoted, homophobic Daily Mail reader', well okay in that sense it would have been a good thing.

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Well, listening to Anjem Choudary (he of Trinity College Dublin debate "Ireland is a legitimate target for terrorist groups as a result of Bush invading Iraq"), he has gone on record as saying he wants Sharia law in every country and looks forward to the day when the black flag os Islam flies over Downing Street and Dail Eireann!

If this is a voice for radical Islam and, as a group, they are going to be listened too to stop their cartoon protestations, I shudder to think of what the future holds for the world in gereral.

These radicals have done more for extreme right wing groups, such as the BNP, than these parties could have ever done by themselves.

I fear even more & worse confrontation in the future. Then factor in the desire for nukes in some countries........it isn't pretty.

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Originally Posted by Tired&Emotional

These radicals have done more for extreme right wing groups, such as the BNP, than these parties could have ever done by themselves.

I fear even more & worse confrontation in the future. Then factor in the desire for nukes in some countries........it isn't pretty.

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I agree completely with that, if you were to put a label on what I used to be it was a conservative liberal I'd reckon, but I've been pushed into the center on my political views and am increasingly looking to right wing groups as opposed to left wing to sort the world out. Point of view on this is that if you have extreme Muslim groups in power in the Middle East and with a lust for atomic weapons than we need hardline right wingers to be able to deal with them. For all the talk of the Republicans and the Conservatives and New Labour being out-dated in America and Britain respectively would you really trust a Ralph Nader or the Lib-Dems to be able to handle terrorist action against either country?

What with the rise of fascist groups in France, Holland and Europe in general I do think its only a matter of time before they come back to power, although obviously not an extreme fascist group like the Nazi party. I think as soon as one of these groups realise the key to getting into power is having a charasmatic frontman who is able to make the public believe that while they may be fascist, they are compassionate fascists (i.e. non-racists) than they will get back into power. As soon as that happens it really is an 'its us or them' situation in the world between the Western World and the Muslim World and thats where World War 3 breaks out. I paint quite the picture don't I!? :o

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Originally Posted by Tired&Emotional

I fear even more & worse confrontation in the future. Then factor in the desire for nukes in some countries........it isn't pretty.

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The Israeli's are unpredictable and with the Neuclear issue in Iran hitting the headlines I really fear that Israel may use this escaltion in muslim hatred as an excuse for a preemptive pop at Tehran, if that Happens there is a chance that Russia and China may retailiate on Isreal with the Yanks jumping to israels defence and we'll all go to hell in a hand basket for the sake of a few lousy cartoon's so finely balanced is the situation in the Mid-East

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Originally Posted by jebus

but I shudder to think, given what generally passes for justice and common decency in arab countries what kind of world we would be living in today had the history of the world turned out differantly and made them the dominant race.

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I think that’s outrageous. In areas where they were dominant things worked absolutely fine. And I’m not harking back to medieval times, in the 19th century when “we” the West (well Russia mostly) were really getting into anti-semitism the Jews fled into the Ottoman Empire for sanctuary and were welcomed. It’s only been with the advent of the nation state and the artificial creation of countries in the middle-east that things have gone pear-shaped - well that and 80 years of western meddling. That’s often what happens when you artificially create countries instead of letting them evolve, you end up with dictators, or unenlightened regimes based on local customs or extreme religious practice. Many of the regimes in Africa aren’t much better. So perhaps instead of vilifying "arab countries" we should vilify western countries for making them what they are today, instead of what they would have become had they been left to their own devises.

Agree entirely with you both (jebus & Block G Raptor)
WW III was on my mind as well - the whole situation needs to get under control and FAST.

It could start with some sort of law, anything at this stage, on the press in Western Europe. - one that will go some way to appease Muslims and at the same not impact free speech in the West (and by that i would mean stopping incitement to hatred/insult by provocation, an add on to recent laws that have come into being).

Another would be open dialogue with muslims countries to explain (among a other things) how state and media are separate and that governments are not (up to the point of the above, say) reponsible for newspaper editors.

By all their rioting the Muslims have themselves been prophetic to the bomb depicted in the cartoons - but then terrorised groups have coloured the West's attititude to Muslims already.

a few points:
t&e, you are sailing close to the wind by constantly referring to the small groups of radicals stirring it up and rioting (no mention of the larger peaceful vigils in the western press that started all this) as 'them' or 'the muslims'. You are stereotyping and its unhelpful.

another choice bit of garbage was 'large numbers of muslims deny the holocoust happened', utter tripe. small amounts of extremists wish it had been more 'effective', so the jews wouldnt have landed in the palestine in the first place and wind israilies up about it. appaling yes, but a different proposition to denyal. why run a cartoon comp if you deny it took place? you are throwing nonsense around all over the place

Choudary was asked a direct question about whether SHANNON's use as a US military facility leaves us open to terrorist attack and he replied yes. this is something the security apparatus of this state, journos, politicians and the yanks themselves have been saying. when an arab says it is described as a threat and he is immediatly labelled a terrorist by bigots like you. its like saying tim pat coogan was a provo. and islams colour is green, so thats 2 factual innacuracies in one post.

t&e, some of this garbage is borderline racist.

there was a professor of history on newstalk with dunphy and he made a very valid point. up until very recently it was christians who killed 'unbelieviers' and aggressivley prostelised. we developed economicially and stopped. his point was islam is currently going through this developmental cycle and will grow out of it if we let them.

Firstly, I completely reject the accusation - if you disagree fine but don't go fanning the flames! "Them" is alot shorter to type - I have said in my earlier posts who I am referring to. If you follow my threads the understading should be "minority of radical Muslims taking offence to cartoons published in Denmark in Sept 05". Your jumping in with two feet here trying to stir this up.
You're the one with the inflamatory language!

Secondly, do some research on denial of the holocaust. And my "nonsense" as you put it is actually highlighting the nonsense of printing cartoons about the holocaust!! That is what i am questioning.

Thirdly, do you know anything of Choudray's history or alter ego or are you basing your comments on what you hear when he in on the Eamonn Dunphy Breakfast Show? btw his other name is Omar Bakri Muhammad - do a Google on both an educate youself properly first!

If this is garbage & racist then report me to a mod - i have done nothing but put forward constructive arguments on this topic. - just because you take exception doesn't mean you can go say what you like - there are rules!

the cartoons about the holocoust are direct tit-for-tat in testing our reaction to something that offends us. i have never heard or heard it alledged, even by the most ardent zionist, that radical muslims deny the holocoust ever took place. you put it out there, back it up, otherwise you are making bizarre allegations.

i was at the debate in trinity, who are what choudary is isnt the point here. you are misquoting him to try and push the agenda that all arabs are terrorists. what he actually said was, again, ireland has involved itself in the war in iraq and some nutters will see us as a legitimate target. nothing 99% of us dont already know. why is it different when a man from the mid-east says it?

the eamon dunphy show reference, if you had actually bothered to read my post before going off on a self righteus rant (kind of ironic considereing the topic at hand), was the historian placing contemporary islam against historical christianity. it was very interesting and relevent when you put christianities past achievements (holocaust, crusades, conqustadores, anti-jewish progroms etc) into the frame, this burst of islamic defiance is a bit of a storm in a teacup really.

this is getting pointless. but for 1 second think, that with the same media bias against muslims and ****s like you who swallow it, how do they see us? we are the jew killing, decadent, polluting, lazy, imperialist west who insult their religion, steal their oil and back up the dictators that oppress them in between worshipping paedophile priests and injecting heroin.

stereotypes are easy to do....

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Originally Posted by Hither green

In areas where they were dominant things worked absolutely.fine................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....So perhaps instead of vilifying "arab countries" we should vilify western countries for making them what they are today, instead of what they would have become had they been left to their own devises.

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Good summing up HG - look at Rwanda and the Congo. Belgium sucked both areas dry for their raw materials for so long, supported minorities to control those areas (brutally) and then fcuked off when both countries tilted into dreadful violence.
Historically, the West/Europe has a lot to answer for. It was the Brits who created Iraq, it was the Brits and the US who undermined a democratically elected leader in Iran to install the murderous Shah. Only a couple of examples but should we really be surprised when payback occurs. It might not be us individually responsible for those historical aspects but we must ensure that we don't compound the problems of the past by continuing the abuse. Buying more Fair Trade goods, supporting the Iraq obscenity protests, fcuking out Bush, Bliar, Berlusconi and co are just a few of the things the West an do.

I heard a candidate for the Lebanese Presidency say on Radio 5 Live at 5.45pm today that the protests there last Sunday over the cartoons came damn close to starting another Lebanese civil war and he claimed Syria was involved too.
What a mess this whole thing is turning out to be.

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

The Israeli's are unpredictable and with the Neuclear issue in Iran hitting the headlines I really fear that Israel may use this escaltion in muslim hatred as an excuse for a preemptive pop at Tehran, if that Happens there is a chance that Russia and China may retailiate on Isreal with the Yanks jumping to israels defence and we'll all go to hell in a hand basket for the sake of a few lousy cartoon's so finely balanced is the situation in the Mid-East

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With what has been said by Irans president, Israel will be well entitled to make a pre-emptive strike against nuclear facilites, just as they did in Iraq..

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Originally Posted by Condex

With what has been said by Irans president, Israel will be well entitled to make a pre-emptive strike against nuclear facilites, just as they did in Iraq..

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the iranian president saying 'if the europeans feel so guilty about the holocaust let them house the new jewish state and leave arabs out of it' entitles them to use military action on what is still a civilian facility? :eek:

and people wonder why muslems feel cornered.....

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Originally Posted by Tired&Emotional

But I don't think the initial publication in Denmark in Sept. 05 was intended to insult. However shortsighted we say it was now in hindsight, it was only because imams in that country went to the trouble of bringing them "home" to Muslim countries that people there knew about them. i think the cartoons were published in a general, Western-freedom-of-speech-way.

However I would definetley question the motivation of their republication in certain European countries in the last few days ...

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Agree fully. At this stage the controversy is being used by sections of both sides to further their own causes.

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Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

the iranian president saying 'if the europeans feel so guilty about the holocaust let them house the new jewish state and leave arabs out of it' entitles them to use military action on what is still a civilian facility? :eek:

and people wonder why muslems feel cornered.....

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Why should the Jews move, they have always lived in Palestine for thousands of years and Islam has only been around since the 6th century.

and as for borders most European country borders changed in times of war!!

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Originally Posted by Condex

Why should the Jews move, they have always lived in Palestine for thousands of years and Islam has only been around since the 6th century.

and as for borders most European country borders changed in times of war!!

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talk about dragging it off topic.....

the state of israel is the issue he addressed, that was founded in 1947.

why should the palestenians be forceably moved by zionist terrorists to accomodate this UN designed state after thousands of years of peaceful coixestance with the jews to appease our guilt?

what has any of this got to do with these cartoons?

back on topic:
caught a guy on the news, representitive of the muslim groups in britain. he made an interesting point that he saw those cartoons as akin to the caricatures the nazi's used to insult and dehumanise the jews in their press in the 1930's and called for all images of mohammed to be banned in the british media.

discuss!

intereseting in this day and age of mass media and internet it is good old fashioned cartoon caricatures that still cause the most reaction

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Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

....and ****s like you who swallow it....

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I'm not going to engage debate with you with an attitude like that.
I may have brought Chroudray into this but if you are going to reply YOU should know history too!

Go fish!

Moderator: Anymore personal attacks from anyone & posts will be deleted & thread closed.

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Originally Posted by Tired&Emotional

I'm not going to engage debate with you with an attitude like that.
I may have brought Chroudray into this but if you are going to reply YOU should know history too!

Go fish!

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apologies for personalising it, wont happen again, but that reply is not good enough, you misquoted him deliberatly.

why he was there isnt the point. what he said was and you were being mischiveous

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Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

apologies for personalising it, wont happen again, but that reply is not good enough, you misquoted him deliberatly.

why he was there isnt the point. what he said was and you were being mischiveous

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OK, accepted.

Where did I misquote him? I certainly wouldn't misquote deliberately - remember what side of the argument I am on here - would be a bit silly of me to do that given the stance i'm taking! I mentioned the TCD thing so people would know who I was talking about.

I did bring AC into it yes but by doing so i was trying to relate the type of people who are speaking on behalf of radical/extremist Muslims. What he said in the debate about Shannon being used and our relation ship with the US is true but, as you say, not relevent here. I agree that our gov. is in bed with the US on stop-overs but that is where I draw the line.

Saying that Ireland is a legit. target for Muslim terrorists is wrong. The guy is a spokesman for Omar Bakri! I was only highlighting the soundpiece for Muslim extremists.

I probably shouldn't post the link (new rules?) but I feel i need to to back up my case, mods, to show where this guy (AC) has decided to put his political ideals.

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/964

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Originally Posted by Condex

With what has been said by Irans president, Israel will be well entitled to make a pre-emptive strike against nuclear facilites, just as they did in Iraq..

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Totally Agree morally Israel are entitled to feel agreived it's the possible domino effect that worries me most

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Originally Posted by Condex

Why should the Jews move, they have always lived in Palestine for thousands of years

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Yes, that's why they've nearly all got American accents, they've always been in Palestine but have just watched too much Fox News. Without prolonging this diversion, let's not forget that the Arabs turfed out of their homes 50 years ago to create the state are stilling living in make-shift shanty towns dotted around the middle east. And a sizeable number of them are Christian Arabs, also not given the vote by Israel.

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Originally Posted by Condex

Islam has only been around since the 6th century.

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I'm sure there's been lots of migration into that area and some invasion, but the coming of Islam was largely the coming of a religion, not a people. The same peoples are there as were there long before Moses wandered into town, they've just converted to Islam from Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Arianism or whatever. Anyway back to the main debate.