Republic of Ireland V Wales - Tuesday, 16th October 2018 - UEFA Nations League

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

ok, the FG government so.
in any case there has been a few re-shuffles since under Varadkar and he is still there.

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They had to put him someplace for the Independent vote. They thought he could do the least damage in Transport/Sport. I have a friend who works in the CS in Transport. He's as bad there as in sport.

Is MON's Cyrus Christie Trap's Paul Green ? Managers sometimes get fixated on players who most others believe (rightly or wrongly) are not fit for purpose.

MON is with us for better or for worse until his contract runs out so everyone can vent as much as they like. There is no money to sack him. I do worry though that if and when he goes, his side-kick will get the job.

The performance against Wales was certainly a step-up from Denmark, albeit against weaker opposition. The changes in formation near the end were a tad bizarre and the long ball to forwards who could audition for a role in the 7 Dwarfs struck me as strange. However, MON is an experienced and relatively successful manager and one would hope therefore that there was method in his madness so we can put hope that things will only get better, although a manager in decline is seldom redeemed.

The fact that he talks down our players wouldn't worry me unless he refers to individuals as human nature is such that each of the players will think he's talking about the others :)

The main question is will be stay with 3 at the back when each of them looks like a frightened rabbit in a headlight when the ball is at their feet, which is not unreasonable when no one is showing for it. Our "wing backs" only really started getting forward when we were 0-1 and then we almost got picked off 2 or 3 times.

I was disappointed to see Judge being sent home. True he's not starting much these days but that's because Brentford are playing really well but what I have seen him over the years, he is a class act. Was about to go to Newcastle before he broke his leg.

Enough ramblings. Time to go home for more punishment (Owls vs Smoggies AND IT'S LIVE ON SKY !!).

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Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

The team play like Queen's Park Strangers.

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Be honest, EG. How long have you been waiting to use that?

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Just looking at the 4 League B group tables.

Slovakia are zero points but have only played twice, have two games left to play, GD-2
Sweden are zero points and have only played twice, have two games left to play, GD-2
Norn Iron have zero points, have played 3, but have a home game against Austria. (NI hit the post 3 times in Bosnia, very unlucky not to get something, btw), GD-4
Ireland has one point, and an away game in Denmark left to play - not to mention a poor GD of -4

I'd be inclined to think Ireland is looking very likely to be 4th or maybe 3rd best of the last-placed League B teams.

Is this important though?

I'm confusing myself with the rules and I can't find where samhayden and I discussed things.

There will be 4 Ds in the D play off.
Even if several Cs qualify outright, there'll still be enough C teams for a C play off
If a C team qualifies outright, it'll probably be at the expense of a B team. That means there may be 5 B teams fighting for 4 places so the last ranked B team won't make the B playoff
But there will in all likelihood be no teams to make up an A play off. That means it'll be made up of any remaining B and C teams? But a C league winner can't be in a path with a higher ranked team, so the unqualified C winner will have priority over a B loser?

Is this right?

Stuff it, I think it just means that the non-qualifying B teams will all have a play off spot of some kind.

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Hey there Stutts - basically, if 16 or more League A and B teams qualify the traditional way, we would be guaranteed a play-off spot (8 play-off spots left between League A and B for 8 teams). If 15 or 14 make it, then yes, we would need to be ranked ahead one or two other League B teams, which is why that drab point against Denmark could yet prove to be important and why there is still something to play for in Copenhagen. A point or two could also protect us from being dragged up to the League A play-offs.

Now there is actually a scenario where it might be better to be ranked last in League B - if all 12 League A teams qualified normally along with 7 League B teams and 1 League C, the other four League B teams would make up the League B play-offs and we would get moved into the League A play-offs along with the League C teams ranked 6-8, currently Scotland, Greece and Montenegro.

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Originally Posted by samhaydenjr

Hey there Stutts - basically, if 16 or more League A and B teams qualify the traditional way, we would be guaranteed a play-off spot (8 play-off spots left between League A and B for 8 teams). If 15 or 14 make it, then yes, we would need to be ranked ahead one or two other League B teams, which is why that drab point against Denmark could yet prove to be important and why there is still something to play for in Copenhagen. A point or two could also protect us from being dragged up to the League A play-offs.

Now there is actually a scenario where it might be better to be ranked last in League B - if all 12 League A teams qualified normally along with 7 League B teams and 1 League C, the other four League B teams would make up the League B play-offs and we would get moved into the League A play-offs along with the League C teams ranked 6-8, currently Scotland, Greece and Montenegro.

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If I understand your scenario correctly then I disagree with it, afaiu the play off format, it is not better to be ranked last in League B.

In that scenario you paint,
the play off for league C involves the 4 top unqualified teams
There are 5 unqualified teams left in league B, in that case the top ranked league B team would then go into a play-off group with 3 of the next best league c teams, those teams placed 5th, 6th and 7th. And the 4 remaining league b teams would then battle it out in the league A play offs by default.

Have a look at the youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slqy1rjQJaY

I can't view the video unfortunately. Surely the league C play offs are going to be made up of the 4 best unqualified C teams?

"Four play-off slots are allocated to each league from UEFA Nations League D to UEFA Nations League A, i.e. in reverse alphabetical order.

If a UEFA Nations League group winner has directly qualified for the final tournament, the next best-ranked team in the relevant league ranking (see Regulations of the UEFA Nations League) which has not directly qualified will enter the play-offs."


And if even one (which is almost certain) of these C teams is a group winner, then by virtue of the stipulation that a group winner can't be in a play off path with a team from a higher league, Geysir's scenario can't be right.

So: if 3 teams from A haven't qualified and 5 teams from B haven't qualified, any B team that has won its group can't be bumped up into the A play off.

By end-November this year each B team will have its relative ranking determined. We'll know in over a year's time which Bs haven't qualified. If there are 5 let's call them B1, B2, B3, B4 and B5 in descending order of their ranking.

If any of these B teams is a group winner then it must be in the B play off path. It's possible but unlikely that 4 of the unqualified Bs will be group winners, meaning B5 (us maybe) will be bumped up into the A play off.

However, let's say only B1 has won its group. Which team gets bumped up?

I think it's then B2!

Because "If fewer than four teams from one league enter the play-offs, the remaining slots are allocated on the basis of the overall UEFA Nations League rankings (see Regulations of the UEFA Nations League) to the best-ranked of the teams that have not already qualified for the final tournament, subject to the restriction that group winners cannot be in a play-off path with higher-ranked teams."

So in this case it's better to be ranked B5 than B2. If B1-B4 are group winners it's bad to be B5. But if only, say, B1-B3 are group winners then it's better to be B5 than B4.

And we can only not be guaranteed a play off if 8 or more A and B teams don't qualify outright (what Sam said above)

I'm not stating this as fact but that's how I'm reading it. And there is quite a strong incentive to come at least second in your C group, because you might get bumped up into the A play off. Basically I'm agreeing with Sam over Geysir :)

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I can't view the video unfortunately. Surely the league C play offs are going to be made up of the 4 best unqualified C teams?

"Four play-off slots are allocated to each league from UEFA Nations League D to UEFA Nations League A, i.e. in reverse alphabetical order.

If a UEFA Nations League group winner has directly qualified for the final tournament, the next best-ranked team in the relevant league ranking (see Regulations of the UEFA Nations League) which has not directly qualified will enter the play-offs."


And if even one (which is almost certain) of these C teams is a group winner, then by virtue of the stipulation that a group winner can't be in a play off path with a team from a higher league, Geysir's scenario can't be right.

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Just assume I am more right :)

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So: if 3 teams from A haven't qualified and 5 teams from B haven't qualified, any B team that has won its group can't be bumped up into the A play off.

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Not any B team would be bumped up, only the 5th team from B would be bumped up to face the A teams
Otherwise you'd have a scenario where the team that finished at the top of those 5 B teams would be punished for finishing first and the 5th team would be rewarded.
It's not that complicated now that I have had a year to get acquainted with the format.
Have a look at the video when you can.

Worth noting btw that relegation from League B means being third seeds for the Euro qualifying draw. Top two qualify; no play-offs any more (Apologies if mentioned already)

I’ve seen it now Geysir. Yeah the video moves the last B team up, as would make sense - otherwise you’re punishing a team for doing better (or less badly) than another.

But that contradicts the wording in the Regulations as far as I can see. The wording says the incomplete league play off slot is given to the highest ranked unqualified team, as long as it’s not a group winner.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

I didn't say we need a plethora of world class players though. I said a couple of players with quality can make a lot of difference at this level.

You can already see the effect that the absence of Coleman, Brady (& perhaps McCarthy) have.

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Don't forget Glenn ;)

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Be honest, EG. How long have you been waiting to use that?

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Less than 24 hours I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I’ve seen it now Geysir. Yeah the video moves the last B team up, as would make sense - otherwise you’re punishing a team for doing better (or less badly) than another.

But that contradicts the wording in the Regulations as far as I can see. The wording says the incomplete league play off slot is given to the highest ranked unqualified team, as long as it’s not a group winner.

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I gave up trying to understand the format when it first came out. Now reading back the same text you probably read, it reads a bit different now. But you'd have to watch the video as well to fill in the information gap and have a clarity.

"If a UEFA Nations League group winner has already qualified via the European Qualifiers, then their spot will go to the next best-ranked team in their league. If a league does not have four teams to compete, the remaining slots are allocated to teams from another league, according to the overall UEFA Nations League rankings."

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Worth noting btw that relegation from League B means being third seeds for the Euro qualifying draw. Top two qualify; no play-offs any more (Apologies if mentioned already)

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No play offs in the euro qualifiers, not even a penalty shootout, but even if we finish 4th or 5th in the Euro qual group we would still likely be contenders for the league B playoffs.

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Originally Posted by geysir

I gave up trying to understand the format when it first came out. Now reading back the same text you probably read, it reads a bit different now. But you'd have to watch the video as well to fill in the information gap and have a clarity.

"If a UEFA Nations League group winner has already qualified via the European Qualifiers, then their spot will go to the next best-ranked team in their league. If a league does not have four teams to compete, the remaining slots are allocated to teams from another league, according to the overall UEFA Nations League rankings."

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I think you're taking that quote from here https://www.uefa.com/uefanationsleag...3.html?iv=true which is accurate but insufficiently precise to iron out any ambiguity. It simply says that rankings will determine how the groups are made up if you have an incomplete play off path. But it doesn't say exactly how. The video tries to illustrate how.

However, if you move away from that UEFA web page describing the Nation's League and even the large PDF file https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles...7_DOWNLOAD.pdf outlining all the regulations of the Nation's League (which only goes as far as describing what happens up to the last match in the Nation's League) the picture becomes clearer.

The passage I quoted above hasn't been changed. It comes from a different place https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles...5_DOWNLOAD.pdf

This is the EURO 2020 competition regulations which in "legalese" describes the qualification process in full and this includes the play off path formation and what happens in the event of an incomplete play off path from a particular group. Article 16 is the key passage.

Essentially you fill the play off paths from D up. The 4 best unqualified D teams make up the D play offs, and in a specific order.
Same thing with C, B and A. Except in all likelihood the D and C paths will be straightforward but almost certainly there won't be a full A play off and that's where the passage I quoted becomes relevant. The key thing is that a group winner can't get bumped up, but the next key thing is that according to the wording but perhaps contradicting the video, the next best team that isn't a group winner gets bumped up.

So I guess where we differ is that I have referred to an additional document which to me seems to iron out any ambiguity.

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Originally Posted by geysir

If I understand your scenario correctly then I disagree with it, afaiu the play off format, it is not better to be ranked last in League B.

In that scenario you paint,
the play off for league C involves the 4 top unqualified teams
There are 5 unqualified teams left in league B, in that case the top ranked league B team would then go into a play-off group with 3 of the next best league c teams, those teams placed 5th, 6th and 7th. And the 4 remaining league b teams would then battle it out in the league A play offs by default.

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If you look at the video from the point below, it shows the play-off paths being created from D to A - the League B Play-off path is filled by League B teams, as there are enough teams available, with the higher ranking teams participating - the lowest ranked League B team then gets dragged up to play against the three remaining League A teams:

https://youtu.be/slqy1rjQJaY?t=37

And this is confirmed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_E...ying#Play-offs

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Each league will have its own play-off path if at least four teams are available. The Nations League group winners will automatically qualify for the play-off path of their league. If a group winner has already qualified through the conventional qualifying group stage, they will be replaced by the next best-ranked team in the same league. However, if there are not enough teams in the same league, then the spot will go to the next best team in the overall ranking. However, group winners cannot face teams from a higher league

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So as long as there are enough teams left over in a League, the pathway for that League is filled with teams from within that League, based on rank. It's only if there aren't enough teams left in that League that the best ranked leftover team from the league below is pulled up. And remember, because of the key fact that play-off paths are assembled from D to A, the four best-ranked leftover teams from the lower League will have already been assigned to that League's path, so it would be the fifth ranked leftover team from the lower League that would be pulled up to the upper League's playoff pathway. This way higher ranked leftover teams don't get pulled up to higher League paths, while lower-ranked teams are allowed to play off against teams within their own path.

But a logical extension of this system and principal could lead to the scenario I describe - League A teams are all gone so its pathway must be made up from Lower Leagues; because the League B pathway would have already been assembled from the best-ranked leftover four teams, that would only leave the worst-ranked leftover League B team to be pulled up. Furthermore, as the teams ranked 1-5 from League C would have either qualified already (I've assumed that the League C qualifier is ranked in the top 5) or been assigned to the League C playoff path, then the teams ranked 6-8 would be moved up to the League A play-off with that worst-ranked League B team, to the advantage of that team. this scenario is unlikely, but far from impossible, given that League A contains the teams ranked 1-12 in Europe.

Here's another scenario - what happens if 13 or more teams from League D qualify?

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Originally Posted by samhaydenjr

If you look at the video from the point below, it shows the play-off paths being created from D to A - the League B Play-off path is filled by League B teams, as there are enough teams available, with the higher ranking teams participating - the lowest ranked League B team then gets dragged up to play against the three remaining League A teams:

https://youtu.be/slqy1rjQJaY?t=37

And this is confirmed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_E...ying#Play-offs



So as long as there are enough teams left over in a League, the pathway for that League is filled with teams from within that League, based on rank. It's only if there aren't enough teams left in that League that the best ranked leftover team from the league below is pulled up. And remember, because of the key fact that play-off paths are assembled from D to A, the four best-ranked leftover teams from the lower League will have already been assigned to that League's path, so it would be the fifth ranked leftover team from the lower League that would be pulled up to the upper League's playoff pathway. This way higher ranked leftover teams don't get pulled up to higher League paths, while lower-ranked teams are allowed to play off against teams within their own path.

But a logical extension of this system and principal could lead to the scenario I describe - League A teams are all gone so its pathway must be made up from Lower Leagues; because the League B pathway would have already been assembled from the best-ranked leftover four teams, that would only leave the worst-ranked leftover League B team to be pulled up. Furthermore, as the teams ranked 1-5 from League C would have either qualified already (I've assumed that the League C qualifier is ranked in the top 5) or been assigned to the League C playoff path, then the teams ranked 6-8 would be moved up to the League A play-off with that worst-ranked League B team, to the advantage of that team. this scenario is unlikely, but far from impossible, given that League A contains the teams ranked 1-12 in Europe.

Here's another scenario - what happens if 13 or more teams from League D qualify?

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why refer to Wikipedia when the definitive document is the Euro 2020 Regulations?

But yes, the formulation of the B group would only leave the lowest remaining B (or even C) teams left to be bumped up into the A play off. In my opinion, the correct wording should be that the place is awarded to the highest ranked remaining team not yet alllocated a play-off position.

Sammy and Stutts have it right. The video is vague like previous videos I posted. The stipulations of the regulations from the pdf Stutts provided which is the same as earlier posts on the other thread have all the details.

If 13 or more teams from D qualify the computer will explode. I don't think the regulations cater for that scenario especially if one of the unqualified D teams is a group winner.


But there's a bit in the Euro 2020 regulations 16.03 (c) Additional conditions may be applied, subject to approval by the UEFA Executive Committee, including seeding principles and the possibility of final tournament host associations having to be drawn into different paths.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Sammy and Stutts have it right. The video is vague like previous videos I posted. The stipulations of the regulations from the pdf Stutts provided which is the same as earlier posts on the other thread have all the details.

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sammy is more right than me!

It's clear that the principle should be that doing better (or less badly) than another team shouldn't put you at a disadvantage. It could have been worded a bit better but as Sammy says, if you fill up the League B path as prescribed, then the next candidate to be bumped up to the A play off is the next B team if there is one.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

why refer to Wikipedia when the definitive document is the Euro 2020 Regulations?

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Because:
a) I don't have a PhD in Law
B) I was busy with a more fun activity - sticking a fork in my eye and
c) it was one of the Wikipedia pages that they said explicitly that you build the playoff paths starting with League D, and at that point I understood how it worked

sorry - it came across as narky, it wasn't intended to be!