Rugby 2013

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

So lucky not to be awarded a penalty for that last scrum. Why did the coach change the dominant front row to one that was obviously inferior and got hammered in the last three scrums.

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I think the front row were out on their feet at that stage. The French had changed both of their props by half time, and the replacements are better scrummagers than their starters. He had to bring on reinforcements but unfortunately they were playing against guys who had plenty of gas and were fully in the rhythm of the game. If it had been a 'normal' game and both sides had changed their front rows in the last 20, I think we would have held up better.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

When Rob Kearney launched that garryowen inside his own 22 I feared that we were determined to lose it in the last minute. Bizarre decision not to take it into contact with two-ish mins on the clock.

I was watching on French TV by the way, I thought that French try at the post shouldn't have been allowed for a host of reasons - what did I miss?

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Haha, we really don't make it easy for ourselves, do we? We did the same against New Zealand, kicking the ball wildly to the opposition with a couple of minutes to go. I think the team aren't as used to winning as they should be, otherwise they'd have finished the game with much more authority.

As far as the try goes, Szarzewski dropped the ball so it should have been disallowed, but France had a penalty already and we would definitely have had a man in the bin so we probably got lucky that he was awarded the try.

That assessment of us not having authority is on the button. Salmon or White line fever would be equally apt.

Thankfully we didn't get punished for it in the end.

Hopefully come next year we'll have copped.

Am I the only one who thinks that Trimble was our MOTM?

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

That assessment of us not having authority is on the button. Salmon or White line fever would be equally apt.

Thankfully we didn't get punished for it in the end.

Hopefully come next year we'll have copped.

Am I the only one who thinks that Trimble was our MOTM?

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He certainly was. The French are romantics, hence BOD got it!

Beating the French gives us a huge psychological edge coming up to the world cup. The next 2 times we play them are in Dublin next year and in Cardiff at the World cup the following October. If we can follow up and beat them in Dublin next year we will be unbeaten against them in 4 games in the run up to the world cup game. A massive result in a variety of contexts.

France are a law unto themselves in World Cups though. They're a bit like Italy used to be in the football. Awful in the group stages, a bit lucky in a Q/F and then something catalyses a burst of form.

That said, I understand that fewer of the French players are at the very best clubs as big money overseas signings are starting to fill the big positions. Maybe Premier League syndrome (as it is perceived to exist) is taking hold in French rugby?

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

France are a law unto themselves in World Cups though. They're a bit like Italy used to be in the football. Awful in the group stages, a bit lucky in a Q/F and then something catalyses a burst of form.

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We play them when!?

Fair point!

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Am I the only one who thinks that Trimble was our MOTM?

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I thought the same.

What do folk here think of the reported new Heineken Cup / European Cup agreement? From a competition perspective it looks like the English got their main demands. The Scots, Italians are likely to lose a place unless they buck up, and the Welsh are under pressure to improve performance. Ireland will still be at the cutting edge and I think the Pro 12 league will become more competitive with every place now being more important to fight for.

I'm relatively neutral on the revenue sharing adjustments as I haven't the time nor inclination to scrutinise "before and after" scenarios.

Replacing ERC with a Swiss equivalent is neither here nor there really, unless you work for ERC.

However, I have a feeling that the fault lines that caused this dispute have yet to be repaired. The RFU, despite helping to broker the deal, are still in poor shape and the PRL will be able to agitate for more concessions at some point in the future, most notably if more TV money came into the club game.

Nigel Wray of Saracens was quoted by Gerry Thornley as saying rugby will become more like football and will bend towards the demands of its TV paymasters and the clubs will seek to end the "feudal" relationship they have with the RFU. Wray was dismissive of lesser nations, including us, on basis that we don't bring big TV money to the table. He's right in one respect, though I think savvy English and French viewers - and broadcasters - know what value the Irish bring to European competition.

The WRU is loss making and seems to have lost control of its Regions.

Italy and Scotland's franchises are struggling (although Glasgow and Edinburgh both had good seasons in different ways last year).

There is a new breed of financially astute and very rich club owners ready to pounce on rugby's commercial potential in a way that the traditional club owners weren't.

As revenues are rising losses at clubs everywhere are mounting as salaries rise. French clubs are mimicking EPL clubs from 15 years ago.

Salary caps are in place but they differ from country to country and don't seem to be particularly successful. UEFA belatedly introduced uniform financial rules applying to clubs entering cross border competition, but there remains scope for rugby's major leagues to compete with each other for cross border success by being lax on financial regulation, and arguably club ownership criteria too. I'm just waiting for Ken Bates or even a Russian to buy a PRL club!

French clubs, like in the EPL, have fewer French players in key positions at the major clubs.

There is (probably understandably) a very noticeable two speed governance structure in Europe. FIRA is the European wide body that coordinates its member unions but at the same time, as far as I can tell, it delegates autonomy to the 6 Nations' Unions to do as they see fit wrt their clubs and national teams, and to organise and approve competitions between their clubs and national teams. FIRA is left to coordinate the lesser nations.

I have read UEFAs statutes and compared to IRB and FIRA. I can't find any internal "rules and regs" relating to 6 Nations Committee. UEFA runs all European club and national competitions, exploits the rights centrally and distributes money down the pyramid to all corners of Europe. It has successfully engaged with key stakeholders to keep the powerful clubs in line, albeit by making key concessions. The traditional structure of European football has largely survived the surge in TV revenues, but the rich/poor gap is wider than ever.

UEFA's statutes commit UEFA to the principle of solidarity and redistribution and also to prioritise sporting fabric over commercial interests. Ok, we can laugh a bit at how things really pan out, but I think a fair degree of balance is maintained. UEFA is also a very proactive formulator of policy. I see very little of this in IRB and FIRA, although words in a rule book are one thing, actions are another. But it does look like rugby has been reactive rather than proactive in the recent disputes.

What next? Does rugby need a real UEFA like body to take ownership of major competitions and act as a more inclusive umbrella body? I personally think so. Leaving the European Cup to be arranged by the clubs and leagues themselves is a recipe for future disharmony and blocks the pathway of smaller countries (however likely or unlikely their progress may be).

Opinion appreciated. I'm working on a paper examining this topic, hence my interest.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

What do folk here think of the reported new Heineken Cup / European Cup agreement? From a competition perspective it looks like the English got their main demands. The Scots, Italians are likely to lose a place unless they buck up, and the Welsh are under pressure to improve performance. Ireland will still be at the cutting edge and I think the Pro 12 league will become more competitive with every place now being more important to fight for.

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Well Scotland and Italy have lost a spot. Wales are the biggest losers, as they'll go from three guaranteed spots to probably only having two participants in future.

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Replacing ERC with a Swiss equivalent is neither here nor there really, unless you work for ERC.

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Not sure about that. Moving to Switzerland will free the competition organisers from any kind of datasharing or corporate transparency, which could be good or bad depending on whose interests you're looking out for.

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However, I have a feeling that the fault lines that caused this dispute have yet to be repaired. The RFU, despite helping to broker the deal, are still in poor shape and the PRL will be able to agitate for more concessions at some point in the future, most notably if more TV money came into the club game.

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This is obviously just round one. There will be more demands when it next comes up for renewal.

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The WRU is loss making and seems to have lost control of its Regions.

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They were never really in control. They tried to do regionalism on the cheap and allowed private clubs to take the reins and they'll find it difficult to go back now.

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There is (probably understandably) a very noticeable two speed governance structure in Europe. FIRA is the European wide body that coordinates its member unions but at the same time, as far as I can tell, it delegates autonomy to the 6 Nations' Unions to do as they see fit wrt their clubs and national teams, and to organise and approve competitions between their clubs and national teams. FIRA is left to coordinate the lesser nations.

I have read UEFAs statutes and compared to IRB and FIRA. I can't find any internal "rules and regs" relating to 6 Nations Committee. UEFA runs all European club and national competitions, exploits the rights centrally and distributes money down the pyramid to all corners of Europe. It has successfully engaged with key stakeholders to keep the powerful clubs in line, albeit by making key concessions. The traditional structure of European football has largely survived the surge in TV revenues, but the rich/poor gap is wider than ever.

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There is no clear explanation for what exactly FIRA does - it doesn't organise any competitions or have any real authority over its own members. The Six Nations committee is still a law unto itself, effectively, and much of what FIRA set out to do has been taken over by the IRB.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

That assessment of us not having authority is on the button. Salmon or White line fever would be equally apt.

Thankfully we didn't get punished for it in the end.

Hopefully come next year we'll have copped.

Am I the only one who thinks that Trimble was our MOTM?

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From the time they missed that nailed on penalty, we kept giving the ball away and they kept giving it back to us.
I'd say the white line fever was felt by both sides, pretty evenly.

Charlie, FIRA organises the European Nations Cup and is rumoured to be given control of a third European club competition, but apart from that I agree. I suspect you knew that but were speaking in general terms. FIRA has one vote at IRB council, as opposed to 2 each for the big nations. They could only have any real impact at global level if they collude with the other regional confederations who also each only have one vote. I think Argentina has only one vote too, and as far as I know only the SANZAR unions have control over the new 4 nations championship, I.e., Argentina must put up with what's on offer.

In one sense it makes sense for bigger nations to have more influence but in another it blocks pathways etc., much like in cricket.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Charlie, FIRA organises the European Nations Cup and is rumoured to be given control of a third European club competition, but apart from that I agree. I suspect you knew that but were speaking in general terms. FIRA has one vote at IRB council, as opposed to 2 each for the big nations. They could only have any real impact at global level if they collude with the other regional confederations who also each only have one vote. I think Argentina has only one vote too, and as far as I know only the SANZAR unions have control over the new 4 nations championship, I.e., Argentina must put up with what's on offer.

In one sense it makes sense for bigger nations to have more influence but in another it blocks pathways etc., much like in cricket.

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I actually forgot about the ENC - I thought the IRB organised it for some reason - but yeah I meant more the fact they don't seem to govern the game in any meaningful sense the way UEFA would. I think rugby is better than cricket in the way that it encourages tier one members to play full tests against tier two sides, but there is the same division between the haves and the have nots. One thing the IRB does is distribute money based on need rather than the ICB's closed shop, in that sense it's closer to the FIFA model.

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Originally Posted by geysir

From the time they missed that nailed on penalty, we kept giving the ball away and they kept giving it back to us.
I'd say the white line fever was felt by both sides, pretty evenly.

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But they hadn't a championship to win at that stage; we did. They knew they would get one chance to win the game and there was no point in them running at us as we would punish them for it.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I actually forgot about the ENC - I thought the IRB organised it for some reason - but yeah I meant more the fact they don't seem to govern the game in any meaningful sense the way UEFA would. I think rugby is better than cricket in the way that it encourages tier one members to play full tests against tier two sides, but there is the same division between the haves and the have nots. One thing the IRB does is distribute money based on need rather than the ICB's closed shop, in that sense it's closer to the FIFA model.

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But we are getting dangerously close to the glass ceiling scenario for the developing (tier 2) nations. Not quite at Ireland/Afghanistan at cricket levels, but close enough for the odd upset v Scotland or Italy.

There'll be a clamour over the next few years for more link up between the ENC and the SNC. I say few, but maybe 10.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

But we are getting dangerously close to the glass ceiling scenario for the developing (tier 2) nations. Not quite at Ireland/Afghanistan at cricket levels, but close enough for the odd upset v Scotland or Italy.

There'll be a clamour over the next few years for more link up between the ENC and the SNC. I say few, but maybe 10.

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While I think there is a clear division in rugby, I don't think there is a literal (well, not literal, but you know) glass ceiling the way there is in cricket where Ireland have had to smash it to get noticed. Samoa's performance in the RWC 2011 was enough to prompt the IRB to change the scheduling, Italy were admitted to the old 5N and Ireland, for their part, have welcomed Samoa and Georgia in successive years despite the obvious financial hit they'll take compared to an elite SH side.

Links for game v Argentina in here.

http://www.wiziwig.tv/broadcast.php?...09&part=sports

Ireland U-20's are into the semi final of the Junior World Cup in New Zealand after beating Fiji 38-0 this morning. That was after a bonus point win against Wales last Friday and a losing bonus point against France the previous Sunday.

Ireland face England in the semi finals next Sunday morning - live on TG4 / SS1 at 6.05am.

Draw for next years European competition takes place at midday.

Missed the two latest games but saw them against France and they were completely outmuscled, so to turn it around in this manner is a fantastic achievement. It's funny they've made it this far as they're probably the weakest group individually we've brought to a JWC in four or five years, but clearly they make up for it in collective effort.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Ireland U-20's are into the semi final of the Junior World Cup in New Zealand after beating Fiji 38-0 this morning. That was after a bonus point win against Wales last Friday and a losing bonus point against France the previous Sunday.

Ireland face England in the semi finals next Sunday morning - live on TG4 / SS1 at 6.05am.

Draw for next years European competition takes place at midday.

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That's 1am pour moi. Luvverly stuff. I'll be up World Cupping all night at a patio somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Missed the two latest games but saw them against France and they were completely outmuscled, so to turn it around in this manner is a fantastic achievement. It's funny they've made it this far as they're probably the weakest group individually we've brought to a JWC in four or five years, but clearly they make up for it in collective effort.

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I've seen precious little Junior Rugby in years. Sounds like a super effort from the lads. What ye reckon for the SF v Engerland?