Budget 2009

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

So now I'm lying

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Another secondary-level response. I didn't say you were lying, I said I don't believe the story. It's second-level hearsay: maybe your sister is lying, maybe she's mistaken, maybe it's exaggerated; I neither know nor care at this stage, I just don't believe it. I think it's rubbish.

Will you swear at me like Paul Gogarty next, to try to distract from your inability to come up with a solution to a problem that you're unable to prove, or quantify?

If you want to highlight a problem, with evidence, and talk about how it can be fixed, you're welcome in Current Affairs. If you just want to bitch and moan about some story, do it in the pub or the break room in work.

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I believe certain people over the age of 65, if social welfare is being cut, could also take a 1% or 2% cut, instead of the blind, the carers and other sectors

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http://www.irishelection.com/2009/12...-deputy-stagg/


It is wrong that nothing was taken of rich over 65's because they vote & are vocal.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/an...s-1973083.html

Self-pitying whining from usual suspects

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This is the atmosphere which is now being forged in Ireland, whereby hardworking small business people who have taken risks to try and do something for themselves and their families are treated like absentee landlords sponging off the blameless lower classes. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. It's the middle classes in Ireland who pay the bills. Class envy never wrote a single dole cheque or funded a single operation.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Another secondary-level response. I didn't say you were lying, I said I don't believe the story. It's second-level hearsay: maybe your sister is lying, maybe she's mistaken, maybe it's exaggerated; I neither know nor care at this stage, I just don't believe it. I think it's rubbish.

If you want to highlight a problem, with evidence, and talk about how it can be fixed, you're welcome in Current Affairs. If you just want to bitch and moan about some story, do it in the pub or the break room in work.

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Me? ha ha I am a very calm person actually and quite relaxed:)
Well I do see her driving her big 2008 reg to collect my sister now and again from the house, her good friend and all -my eyes me eyes...........

Solution - yeah you have had a huge amount to offer yourself?
Who is moaning and bitchin? Are we not allowed to make observations and comment?

My solution is that the social should be means tested more fairly (maybe a total revamp) - I mean it does seem to be all over the place, with some people getting what they don't really deserve, while others who are on it getting nearly not enough.

I offered 3 solutions, are you blind? You claim you can see this woman driving her 2008 BMW, which would seem to suggest it, but you also seem to have supersight that that can pick out large wads of cash inside people's pockets, and long-range tracking to see them in other countries, and even what they're doing in those other countries. Plus of course you use your other spidey-senses to sense her drawing the dole.

So, since you actually appear to have better senses that everyone on the planet, you'll be able to refer back the second solution I offered, which is what will be required to police your proferred solution. Are you happy to have a massive network of social workers flood your area day after day? Are you happy to pay their wages out of your taxes? Because it's the only way of ensuring that such a shallow plan actually works.

Means testing is of course needed, but suggesting it as the solution is the kind of thing I'd expect from a Fianna Fail politician. Perhaps you should join up, it's about your level.

For the record all social welfare claimants are means tested. A friend of mine is entitled to less than €40 per week as his wife works

I think he's aware of that, he's suggesting it should be "more fair". Whatever that means.

I was means tested for the dole 20 years or so ago, and because I lived at home they means-tested my parents too; despite the fact that I was a rent-paying adult. I can't remember the actual amount they came up with, but I do remember it being less than the cost of the bus.

(I'm not suggesting we should do away with means testing, and I agree it needs reform. But in my case the reform would have needed to go in the other direction to be fair. IMHO of course. This whole idea that mammy and daddy should support the babies until they're 50 is a joke.)

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I offered 3 solutions, are you blind? You claim you can see this woman driving her 2008 BMW, which would seem to suggest it, but you also seem to have supersight that that can pick out large wads of cash inside people's pockets, and long-range tracking to see them in other countries, and even what they're doing in those other countries. Plus of course you use your other spidey-senses to sense her drawing the dole.

So, since you actually appear to have better senses that everyone on the planet, you'll be able to refer back the second solution I offered, which is what will be required to police your proferred solution. Are you happy to have a massive network of social workers flood your area day after day? Are you happy to pay their wages out of your taxes? Because it's the only way of ensuring that such a shallow plan actually works.

Means testing is of course needed, but suggesting it as the solution is the kind of thing I'd expect from a Fianna Fail politician. Perhaps you should join up, it's about your level.

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Heh Dahm man you are really insulting me now comparing me to that shower -thanks:(
Calm down, I have a sister you know - woman can get all this info pretty easy.
But if people pay into the system surely their entitlements should be better?

Seriously bennocelt, save it for the pub. This forum isn't your level.

(It's been pointed out that Foot.ie is about the level of the pub, which makes it difficult to peg bennocelt's level. Kindergarten perhaps, or the Dail.)

It didn't take long for the public sector pay cuts to be used to try and drive down other wages. Not predictable at all :rolleyes:

Shows you how far the Greens have gone that it's them raising it. Mind you, handy to concentrate on pay of the worker when it's competition for competitions sake that is driving prices of our utilities.

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“Everybody should examine what’s going on in relation to pay rates. We need to restore competitiveness to the economy. We need to ensure that those that are operating in the commercial sector act commercially,” he said.

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Link

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Seriously bennocelt, save it for the pub. This forum isn't your level.

(It's been pointed out that Foot.ie is about the level of the pub, which makes it difficult to peg bennocelt's level. Kindergarten perhaps, or the Dail.)

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Again with the insults - about your level in fact - maybe get off the high horse, perhaps?
Just because you couldn't comprehend that there are people who do quite well off the dole - wow

I comprehend fine bennocelt, as my second-last post made clear, it's your simple-minded comprehension and "solutions" I have difficulty with. I mean "simple-minded" literally by the way, which isn't the same as the way you'll take it. I'm done with trying to make it clear to you, it's not worth the effort. You'd do well to read this thread, it has relevance to you.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I comprehend fine bennocelt, as my second-last post made clear, it's your simple-minded comprehension and "solutions" I have difficulty with. I mean "simple-minded" literally by the way, which isn't the same as the way you'll take it. I'm done with trying to make it clear to you, it's not worth the effort. You'd do well to read this thread, it has relevance to you.

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yawn, whatever:)

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I comprehend fine bennocelt, as my second-last post made clear, it's your simple-minded comprehension and "solutions" I have difficulty with. I mean "simple-minded" literally by the way, which isn't the same as the way you'll take it. I'm done with trying to make it clear to you, it's not worth the effort. You'd do well to read this thread, it has relevance to you.

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not think your being just a little bit harsh

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Originally Posted by Macy

It didn't take long for the public sector pay cuts to be used to try and drive down other wages. Not predictable at all :rolleyes:

Shows you how far the Greens have gone that it's them raising it. Mind you, handy to concentrate on pay of the worker when it's competition for competitions sake that is driving prices of our utilities.



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The reduction in the rates of pay accross the economy I think generally is accpted as A way forward but on it's own obviously won't be enough.
These private sector wages have been falling long before any mention of public sector cuts. (ask the cars sales man or anybody else dependant on commision for their part of their salary etc etc)

Re the semi states - I wonder had the government worked out prior to the budget, how the PAYE tax receipts at the semi states might be affected if a paycut was implemented?? I would say not. Obviously less pay equals less tax and knowing that lot, probably looked over.

How CIE and Dub Bus can resist pay cuts is exactly the same argument as the public sector workers put forward. I accpet the average salary in the two above compnaies are a lot less than the average wage in the public sector as a whole but the fact remains, those companies are competing for a shrinking market and one which is receives 75% of their business from the private sector. i.e downward pressures on wages and thus fares.

Paycuts would simply reduce the amount of Subvention required!!

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

The reduction in the rates of pay accross the economy I think generally is accpted as A way forward but on it's own obviously won't be enough.

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Only by ideological position - unfortunately the Government (and by extension RTE) and the main opposition party, along with those that control the media, subscribe to that view. Wages are only 10% of the ESB's costs, and their prices are set by a regulator who is artificially setting the price high to encourage competition (Government Policy). So what benefit is there for cutting the ESB wages, bar as another example to use against others?

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

These private sector wages have been falling long before any mention of public sector cuts. (ask the cars sales man or anybody else dependant on commision for their part of their salary etc etc)

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That's not what the figures say. It's also not what many commentators are saying now that Public Sector wages have been cut.

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

How CIE and Dub Bus can resist pay cuts is exactly the same argument as the public sector workers put forward. I accpet the average salary in the two above compnaies are a lot less than the average wage in the public sector as a whole but the fact remains, those companies are competing for a shrinking market and one which is receives 75% of their business from the private sector. i.e downward pressures on wages and thus fares.

Paycuts would simply reduce the amount of Subvention required!!

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As far as I'm aware, there are ongoing negotiations going on in the CIE Group over cost savings. Agreement would be better than a disruptive strike.

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As far as I'm aware, there are ongoing negotiations going on in the CIE Group over cost savings. Agreement would be better than a disruptive strike.

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Why is strike the first word on public sector and semi state lips? Seriously, it is the last thing I would do.

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

Why is strike the first word on public sector and semi state lips? Seriously, it is the last thing I would do.

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Macy had just decimated your argument there with facts and you pick one little bit out of it that you can get your teeth into.

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

Why is strike the first word on public sector and semi state lips?

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It's actually the last thing, or else they wouldn't be in bloody negotiating would they?

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

Seriously, it is the last thing I would do.

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It is the last thing that Unions use, once other avenues have been exhausted.

No chance of you addressing the point about why ESB workers should have their wages cut?

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Originally Posted by Macy

It's actually the last thing, or else they wouldn't be in bloody negotiating would they?

It is the last thing that Unions use, once other avenues have been exhausted.


No chance of you addressing the point about why ESB workers should have their wages cut?

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I am not a member of any union and therefore hands up I am not fully aware of their mechanics. But I work for an SME, my wife works for a US multinational. Never once been a strike in either with about 95 years of being in business. No unions present. Strikes may well be the last resort but it's the "first" weapon used in anger.

On the ESB, How about this..... By your own analysis, they are earning super normal profits on the back of artifically high prices set by the regulator. They are not as profitable as they protray.

Inflation is @ -5.5% meaning their spending power is increasing at about 9% this year. It's simply wrong.
Thirdly, as a major customer of mine, I have seen they are as bloated as areas of the public sector. It costs about 80 euro to rasie a purchase order, Go to accounts, get a procurement note, go to purchasing get an order number, then the order is placed. They have even paid us twice, many times.......We refund them, howmany other do? It happens as the delivery note with the goods gets into the payments system as indeed does the offical VAT invoice.
And then look at their age profile.
They are earning money for Jam, isn't the average wage in their about 75k, and sparks all over the country signing on?

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

I am not a member of any union and therefore hands up I am not fully aware of their mechanics. But I work for an SME, my wife works for a US multinational. Never once been a strike in either with about 95 years of being in business. No unions present. Strikes may well be the last resort but it's the "first" weapon used in anger.

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No the first weapon is usually something that doesn't effect members core pay, even in anger. Non cooperation, overtime bans, work to rules etc. would generally be first. Even in anger strikes are a last resort. I'm pleased you both work for employers that you don't feel the need for collective protection, collective agreements etc. Many are not so lucky, and many more aren't so lucky but have been taken in by anti union spin so won't organise.

On the esb... So basically just because some of the workers are on a decent wage (which you clearly have a problem with others having) and you've had a few bad experiences (probably not with the people on the big money that bring up the average). Not because it's going to make any difference to either the cost of the esb to customers, increase their profitability much (if wages are only 10% of their costs), or even increase customer service. The only possible benefit is to make bitter people feel better in seeing suffering of fellow workers, and for it to be used to drive down other workers salaries.