Bazunu could be Real Madrids keeper one day, Kelleher at Notts County and Pineapple will still be saying that Kelleher is better. I get his ma broke up with you years ago dude but don't carry the grudge over to the young fella :p
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Bazunu could be Real Madrids keeper one day, Kelleher at Notts County and Pineapple will still be saying that Kelleher is better. I get his ma broke up with you years ago dude but don't carry the grudge over to the young fella :p
Still not really able to engage in an actual point there, I see...
Why do you think Bazunu kept the score down against Greece? Given I've put out plenty of counter arguments (which acknowledge that he played quite well)
I watched the game, he make good saves at a time we were under massive pressure, hence keeping us in the game. Not every save has to be Gordon Banks level to be important. I feel like I have to say this to you a lot... its not that complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
But he only made one particularly good save; the rest were routine enough. You'd have been annoyed had he let any of them in like. Again, compare it to the Swedish keeper's performance in Austria last night for what I would class as a keeper keeping the score down.
I think your hyper optimism is unhelpfully elevating a solid performance into a spectacular one. (I feel like I have to say this to you a lot...)
But the point Stu is that any praise for Bazunu from you always seems to be qualified or through gritted teeth.
As a (fellow) ex-keeper I’m very focused on the relationship between defenders and keeper and the keeper’s attitude, body language etc.
I posted over a year ago that Kelleher looks far more confident for Liverpool than he did in his early outings but Bazunu doesn’t yet look like he believes he belongs in the PL, and nor does it look like he is fully trusted by his defence. (nothing changed when McCarthy came in btw).
But for Ireland Bazunu looks the part. He’s at home in the Irish jersey and he’s fully in tune with his defence. He didn’t do anything miraculous in Greece but he was rock solid which puts all doubts to rest imho. And his distribution against Gibraltar was very good too.
When there are doubts about a kid based on his club form but he dispels those doubts for Ireland I think that’s noteworthy in itself.
The fact that you’ve really latched on to this “he saved us in Greece” thing rather than just letting it go really suggests you just don’t like him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
We might be overanalyzing it at this point stu. A keeper playing well does keep you in the game.....In the first 15 minutes he made one great save which did literally keep the score down. You agree with that so is it really that hard to say he kept us in the game? I still think it was 2 very good pieces of goalkeeping, particularly while everyone else was falling to pieces. If he'd lost the head and gone the same way we'd have been toast by halftime. Most seem to agree with that I think? It wasn't his best game for Ireland and it wasn't spectacular but we were so bad that him playing well was absolutely critical.....we still lost so it's a bit odd to be discussing Bazunu over other things. But it's foot.ie and we do love a GK debate.
Thought Collins was poor particularly during that period. The goal is boosting his rating of course but he made 2 or 3 really bad decisions. If Bazunu had done the same we'd have lost by more than one.
I always think it's a bit unsual to be analysing (to this extent) the performances in the one position in which we are truly blessed with quality.
Ask yourself what a higher level of competition is. The LoI cup final or an u-21 friendly match between Wales and Scotland. I promise I'm not winding anyone up here, but I find it amazing how some people seem to think that Bohemians or Shamrock Rovers are only a couple of good signings away from winning the Champions League. Sixteen cup finals? Is this guy for real?
How many cup finals in professional football have you managed in ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
None. I'm not going around telling people how great I am because I scored a few goals against female players, either. I'd be laughed at for doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
There must be some obscure manager who has racked up dozens of Cup wins in places like the Faroe Islands or Greenland. I wonder why Premier League clubs don't go after those highly decorated managers?
I'm not comparing the LoI to the Faroe Island or Greenland domestic leagues, if they even have them, but we have to be realistic about what kind of clubs Stephen Kenny has managed, and what kind of opposition he has managed against. By every metric, the League of Ireland is a poor league. It has a poorer UEFA ranking than Moldova and Azerbaijan.
I was willing to give Stephen Kenny a chance, especially after the Portugal match where we almost won. I really just don't get why so many on here are willing to stick with him. John Delaney was smarter than he looked, he knew you people were easy to manipulate.
If they LOI is as bad as you make it out to be, getting Dundalk to just qualify for the group stages of the Europa League must be up there with the greatest achievements of any manager in history.
It was an incredible achievement and I take nothing away from Stephen Kenny. He's a lovely guy, and I think the LoI is his level. I hope he goes back there and leads another club into Europe. I just don't feel he's shown that he's capable of managing at the international level. The away match to Greece was only 2-1, but we all know that it could have, and should have, been much worse. We weren't in it at all.
Ya see, if you kept your criticism genuine like that I'd have little argument. Comparing the LOI to your Co-Ed games just makes you look like you're intentionally just trying to wind people up. Keep that sh1t for TwitterQuote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
Alright, neutral corners you two.
"I find it amazing how some people seem to think that Bohemians or Shamrock Rovers are only a couple of good signings away from winning the Champions League"
I'd love to see some evidence to back that claim up to be honest. I've been following the league for a long time and I've never met one, single person who would think that let alone say it. The poster in question has a pretty long history of trying to wind up Irish football supporters and it has gone beyond tiresome.
Fair point, I was being hyperbolic. That said, I do think that many LoI fans, especially the ones on here, greatly overestimate the quality of the players in their league. Normally this would be no problem, but it has bled into the national team. Never again can we allow someone like John Delaney to gain enough power to be able to make such a ridiculous appointment. Years from now we're going to look back on this period of Irish football and agree that Stephen Kenny did us no good at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
On a side note, Stephen Kenny's been banging on about how many players he has given international debuts to. This would be like Steve Staunton taking credit for capping Joey Lapira.
See, when you give up the LoI bashing you actually make a bit of sense.
I'd still disagree with you on certain points but at least it doesn't come across as a windup. The LoI has provided multiple players to the current national side. They wouldn't appreciate you calling it a pub league and neither do people like myself who follow and support the league and frankly, know more about it than you seem to.
I do agree that John Delaney types should obviously never hold that amount of power BUT I'd disagree that Kenny wasn't a reasonable appointment at the time. Not handled well but I was OK when it happened. Only OK mind you. It's not as if he came out of the LoI with a completely flawless record snd most Rovers fans would have been against the appt.
I do think it's time for a change but that shouldn't mean we can't look to the LoI for future managers or players. Kenny just couldn't make the step up. Others will be able to.
I do also agree that he shouldn't tout the caps so much as he does. He was always going to have to cap players because we had no other choice. Although capping Johnston is one I'd give him some credit for. I'm not sure other managers would have gone after that one.
Not fair at all. There’s a big difference between the caps that SK has handed out in the last two years and their long term value than there was with the Joey Lapira, Joe O’Cearruil, Joe Gamble days of Staunton. He must’ve had a thing for Joe’s actually!! Most, if not all, of the caps SK has handed out will be part of our set up for years to come.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Typical that we'd disagree in the leadup to the derby.....but I see your point while also agreeing with CR to an extent. I don't think Kenny should be talking so much about bringing the players through....he had to do that. It's a positive of his tenure but I think most managers would have done it so it's hardly going to save his job. Like nobody was going to ignore Ferguson and keep calling up Scott Hogan....
I’m not defending him, just trying to be fair to him. It is to his credit but it also doesn’t need to be overplayed. I was just pointing out to CR that you can’t reasonably say the caps Kenny has handed out are no better than those handed to Lapira et all. It actually detracts from his overall point and comes across needlessly petty/bitter…
Yeah that's completely fair. Kenny's caps have basically all been good ones. Maybe not players who are fully ready yet but the best options we have for the medium term anyway. I wish we had another 26-30 year old midfielder who could help Knight and Molumby along but it is what it is and at least Kenny has decided to play them now and not lean on older options who are on the way out rather than up.
FWIW, and this isn't in response to you SkStu, I think we'll look back on Kennys tenure as a very turbulent one with some decent attempts made at changing the culture and style of football that were probably a bit too ambitious given the players at our disposal. Ultimately we will remember the results and tactics not being good enough but there have been some positives and we did need to try something new IMOP. One thing we will definitely say is that a good number of our best players in future years were brought in by him and encouraged to play.
I've moved on from him at this point. What's sad to me is that posters want to use his shortcomings to bash the LoI. Kenny had his shortcomings even within the LoI and many would have said that. Still deserved his shot, particularly given the FAIs finances but it hasn't worked and at this stage, his wages are good enough to attract someone who can do the job better. It's not an easy one but he's making it look harder than it is. We should be able to compete with Greece. I don't mind losing in Athens but we were tragically bad after a training camp dedicated to the game. I trust the current FAI slightly more to pick the right man as well.....slightly more.....
I'm not sure about that last part. Too many managers of our past would go with the "experienced" guy. Was chatting about this with a buddy the other day that if Allardyce was appointed for example I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff Hendrick was starting for us again as he would be a safe, experienced player. Of course Ferguson would force his way in, but I don't think he would have done as quickly under other managersQuote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
i think Ferguson would have been brought in even earlier by some managers! He's the only striker we have of any proven quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
But yeah maybe Molumby and Knight would have been left out for longer in favour of Hendrick, Hourihane, Browne......although Browne may still be useful.
O’Shea, Omobamidele and to a lesser extend Collins would be years behind at this stage. John Egan made his competitive debut for Ireland a week before his 27th birthday, while playing premier league for Sheffield United. Genuinely 3 years later than he was ready…Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
I might be missing your point here but would any of them not have been called up by other managers? We basically had to cap them all. I'm not sure even Big Sam wouldn't have looked for fresher options.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Not really. I've been clear he had a good game in Greece and deserved the non-Greek MotM award.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
But now we have people saying he kept us in the game. No he didn't.
And anyone other than - in fairness - OTOH can only discuss that in the context of personal attacks. You've just done it yourself for example. That's daft.
I'm reminded of a phrase you've used before - read the room. No other views welcome, eh? That's not really what discussion is about though.
It's just too awful to contemplate - the last three years without Stephen. What could possibly have gone right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
My reading of this particular room is just as I said it in my opening line above: you really do seem to only praise Bazunu begrudgingly, and I feel too that you take a particularly firm interpretation of his club situation “he’s not good enough”. It really feels like you just don’t like him.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I don’t think I’m alone in noticing this, see for example Crafty’s fireplace gag.
I honestly didn't realise I had made a personal attack, and certainly didn't intend to. Apologies.
James McCleanQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
I was about to make a similar point but I guess what es is saying is Kenny brought them on board earlier than other managers would have, which you could make a case for perhaps. Kenny put Dufffy out to pasture and went with younger partners for Egan... I do feel this would have happened pretty quickly anyway but may be true that O'Shea / Omoba would be on fewer caps than under another manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
Molumby and Knight perhaps wouldn't be involved much under other managers, I would say they are the two he has really brought through that others may not have done, and Johnstone is something of a 'find'.
His statement wasn't directed at the journalists or the fansQuote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
That was for the board of the FAI
It was like David Brent " please don't fire me"
Looking at that O Neill brought in way more guys then kenny !!
I assume he meant came through from u19/u21 etc and then made senior debuts either while still eligible for the u21s or just after, which I guess the above doesn't show... but Mick did give debuts to Connolly, Parrott, Travers and O'Connor who all played for the underage teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Maybe he just didn't explain what he meant correctly. I think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one...
It was in front of a group of journalists in the corridor outside the dressing room, it wasn't a press release, or something he posted onlineQuote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
https://www.the42.ie/stephen-kenny-s...98557-Jun2023/
I wouldn't assume that. In fact I don't think that's what he was sayingQuote:
Originally Posted by zero
I think he was referring to senior debuts
I know thatQuote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
But I still think it was for the benefit of his employers. Theyvr obviously seen it.
Btw it's pretty clear he will be Insitu until September.
I'd have took the "nine years" to be an exaggeration of the issue we've explored here quite a few times. There's a group of 30 something players and a group who were all still eligible to play under 21 up to this season. I'd say that's where the 9 years is roughly coming from. The gap between the now 23ish and under players he has brought through and the senior squad players the wrong side of 30. That's the gap, no players came through the Irish system. The few players that we have in the middle are players like Cullen, O'Dowda, Robinson, who were entirely developed in the UK system. That would be my take on it.
I think the gish of what Kenny had to say stands up - the comment doesn't need to be taken literally, especially as it was off-the-cuff. I'd rather see a chart of playing minutes per debutant out of total possible playing minutes. Because current senior players like Egan, Doherty, and Cullen were capped before Kenny but it was Kenny who integrated them into the starting team. Think it is fair to say Kenny has made more widespread changes to the squad, while previous managers were more conservative in making changes. Of the debuts O'Neill gave - maybe only Duffy established himself as a starter under his tenure? McCarthy wasn't in charge for too long so no benefit in pointing out he gave few playing minutes to the players he capped. Kenny has integrated his debutants in the team/ squad others before didn't do.
Even if the details aren’t correct, the reality is. If I remember correctly, we had the oldest squad in both euro 2012 and euro 2016.
In the last campaign, we had something like 10 u21s called up:
Bazunu
Ebosele
Collins
Omobamidele
Coventry
Knight
Connolly
Parrott
Idah
Obafemi
Obviously only 8 of 10 were capped but I looked it up at some point and Luxembourg were second most u21s involved in Europe with about 5 players.
Subsequently, Ferguson and Smallbone have also come through. So overall we’ve gone from having the oldest squad in Europe to probably the youngest