Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Beaglehole had his say on the issue in the Sunday Life at the weekend, in an article by Mark McIntosh headed "James should come clean".

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Sounds balanced and trustworthy. Can you post it here?

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James was "loyal to the IFA until he reached the point of no return with them - far from not being part of their plans, he defected when he was selected for a senior squad for a competitive International.

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How do you know that his mind to switch was not already made prior to Nigel reading of his move to Sunderland in the paper? The evidence shows he clearly wasn't on the IFA's radar prior to his move. Nigel certainty knew nothing of the chap prior to his Sunderland move.

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It was then he decided to "follow his dream" - before it was no longer an option.

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Just thinking of your proposal for the IFA and to go back to it, it should be noted that players are switching at relatively young ages to follow their dream.

Darron Gibson: 16
Marc Wilson: 16
Shane Duffy: 17/18
James McClean: 22
Paul George: 17
Daniel Kearns: 18
Daniel Devine (reported by the BBC he switched in May 2011): 18
Eunan O'Kane: 21

So with the exception of McClean and O'Kane, 6 players of the 8 listed switched at 18 or earlier. The only player in the list that switched with a reasonable expectation of making our senior side was Duffy as he had made his debut for the Everton seniors at the time. All other players have switched at a time when there prospects of a senior cap with us were slim to non-existent.

As the majority of players are switching at ages of 18 or under, is there really a pressing need for your proposal at all?

It's called 'control freakery'.
Or is it 'paranoia' ?
:rolleyes:

One of NB's most trusted acquaintances, who he claimed was a reliable source - perhaps even a source more reliable than the Oxford Dictionary itself,
has claimed that James the defector was subject to persistent pressure from forces, including sinister outside agencies in order to declare for the FAI.

At this stage, can you seriously put any weight on what NB surmises about what goes on in the head of James McClean?

Yes ArdeeBhoy, another case of OWC paranoia, is more likely.

You might say that;I couldn't possibly comment.
;)

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Johnny Gorman is an interesting case. After all this is an English schoolboy with senior NI caps to his name. The panel's laughter at your Johnny Gorman point should have hit home the realisation that Gorman wasn't capped for his footballing abilities.

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True. The main reason I raised the point was simply to highlight the universal application of article 8, mind. I could have used one of a number of examples of players who've switched from another association to the IFA or of players who've switched from the FAI to another association. Johnny Gorman just so happened to tick both boxes and the irony is that he was the only player on the field to have switched between the two partaking associations when we played NI in the Carling Nations Cup. Essentially, all associations could be said to benefit/suffer from the application of article 8.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Just thinking of your proposal for the IFA and to go back to it, it should be noted that players are switching at relatively young ages to follow their dream.

Darron Gibson: 16
Marc Wilson: 16
Shane Duffy: 17/18
James McClean: 22
Paul George: 17
Daniel Kearns: 18
Daniel Devine (reported by the BBC he switched in May 2011): 18
Eunan O'Kane: 21

So with the exception of McClean and O'Kane, 6 players of the 8 listed switched at 18 or earlier. The only player in the list that switched with a reasonable expectation of making our senior side was Duffy as he had made his debut for the Everton seniors at the time. All other players have switched at a time when there prospects of a senior cap with us were slim to non-existent.

As the majority of players are switching at ages of 18 or under, is there really a pressing need for your proposal at all?

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You make a good point. Cheers for listing them there. Hysterical claims of "use and abuse" of the IFA's youth set-up look even shakier when you actually take a minute to think about the ages at which the majority of players who change to the FAI after having been involved with the IFA do switch. Most have done so early - before or upon adulthood - as most NI fans would wish.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

.... claims of "use and abuse" of the IFA's youth set-up

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It shouldn't be totally ruled out although abuse is too strong a word to describe it. It is probable that players will use the international set-up to put themselves in the shop window for professional contracts. In this way they may use the IFA as a stepping stone to further their career while their true international allegiances lie with the FAI. However as the IFA challenged the eligibility of NI born players to play for the FAI as late as 2010 (the CAS ruling wasn't until July 2010) we can't assume that all players within IFA structures were fully aware of their eligibility for the FAI before/ and even after this date. So claims of abusing the IFA's youth set-up go too far.

Anyways if we consider the first level of international football with the FAI, under 15s, players are nominated for trials by their clubs, their leagues or through the regional development centres. NI born players are not part of this selection process as the schoolboy leagues they are affiliated to are under the jurisdiction of the IFA and the FAI doesn't have a regional development center in NI to identify emerging talent. If the IFA wants to totally avoid "abuse" of its youth set-up, the structures the FAI has for identifying U15 level players needs to be extended to Northern Ireland.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

As the majority of players are switching at ages of 18 or under, is there really a pressing need for your proposal at all?

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I've no issues with players declaring for the South before they represent te IFA at Under19 and above.

What I advocate, viz a viz IFA selection policy, will help restrict the number who do,
when they harbour ambitions of ultimately playing for the South

South Korea??

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Originally Posted by ifk101

How do you know that his mind to switch was not already made prior to Nigel reading of his move to Sunderland in the paper.

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With his call up to the IFA Senior squad, he reached the point of no return.

He seemed happy enough with his call up iin this interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peWCoAWhJLw

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Originally Posted by geysir

One of NB's most trusted acquaintances, who he claimed was a reliable source - perhaps even a source more reliable than the Oxford Dictionary itself, has claimed that James the defector was subject to persistent pressure from forces, including sinister outside agencies in order to declare for the FAI.

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You have the temerity to accuse Gary Mac of making up stories, but yet you are guilty of exactly the same charge with these
comments.

Can you please direct me to such comments attributable to Gary Mac, specifically concerning McClean, or else retract your allegations?

Outrageous fabrication and misrepresentation on your part - but that's no surprise.
When struggling, you tend to resort to playing the man, and not the ball.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Most have done so early - before or upon adulthood - as most NI fans would wish.

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We need the bar raised from "most" to "all, with rare exception".

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Essentially, all associations could be said to benefit/suffer from the application of article 8.

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Do you think that when Gorman was playing for the South at underage level, he was harbouring ambitions to fulfil a boyhood dream to represent Northern Ireland?

Did even his mother know his 'boyhood dreams' ??
:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Did even his mother know his 'boyhood dreams' ??
:rolleyes:

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John "Pennywise" Delaney might have.

They all float down South.

NB, will ya start using multi-quote.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

We need the bar raised from "most" to "all, with rare exception".

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Fair point. I take issue with the insinuation that players have been hanging around the IFA's youth set-ups for about five or six years. Not that I'm accusing you of making it.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Do you think that when Gorman was playing for the South at underage level, he was harbouring ambitions to fulfil a boyhood dream to represent Northern Ireland?

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Most likely not, although this obviously became his ambition at some point whilst it could be said he was registered with the FAI. Clearly, Shane Lowry harboured ambitions of representing Australia whilst playing with us at under-age level. The same might be said of Michael Keane with regard to playing for England.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

He seemed happy enough with his call up iin this interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peWCoAWhJLw

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Yes. He's happy (and surprised) to finally get the recognition he deserves from the IFA. He hasn't made any secret of his disappointment in not being selected for the NI squad for the Celtic Cup. The call-up to the NI senior squad was pleasing and a relief to him personally as a footballer.

"It was a blow seeing Irish League players being called up before me to the Northern Ireland squad, but having got the call I was relieved," McClean said in the Belfast Telegraph. "However, it's always been my dream to play for the Republic and hopefully that will become a reality now that I'm going to be a Sunderland player."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...eland-republic

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

South Korea??

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http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile..._4971390_n.jpg

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Yes. He's happy (and surprised) to finally get the recognition he deserves from the IFA. He hasn't made any secret of his disappointment in not being selected for the NI squad for the Celtic Cup. The call-up to the NI senior squad was pleasing and a relief to him personally as a footballer.

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Indeed. One is hardly going to be disappointed with the international recognition, even if it is for the IFA rather than the FAI. McClean's reaction was diplomatic more than anything else. It's similar to 17 year old Shane Duffy's comments regarding his inclusion in the senior NI squad: "I'm made up with the news... I didn't expect it."

Contrast that stifled reaction with: “I finished training on Tuesday and then I got the text to say ‘You’re in the squad.’ It was a dream come true.”

“People like Robbie Keane, Damien Duff and Shay Given are my idols and now I’m in the same squad as them. It’s a proud moment.

“Getting a call up for your country, you can’t be more proud than that."

When are people going to realise that all these players regard themselves as Irish, first and foremost. Some of them may also consider themselves Northern Irish as well, and fair play if they do represent NI at youth level. As far as I'm concerned its no different than a kid from Cork representing the Munster FA before going on to full international honours with the FAI.

It's probably an understatement to say not everyone sees it that way.

See the last 100+ posts from a certain person on here...

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Originally Posted by drummerboy

When are people going to realise that all these players regard themselves as Irish, first and foremost. Some of them may also consider themselves Northern Irish as well, and fair play if they do represent NI at youth level. As far as I'm concerned its no different than a kid from Cork representing the Munster FA before going on to full international honours with the FAI.

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Not sure how appropriate that analogy is given the IFA aren't a subsidiary organisation of the FAI. Well, just not yet anyway... :p

What they need to come to terms with, is that we don't regard capping the likes of Gibson, George and McClean as poaching. We regard them as our players and the players, regard themselves as Irish.

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Originally Posted by drummerboy

We regard them as our players and the players, regard themselves as Irish.

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What you, and others, need to come to terms with is that if these "Irish" players, don't wish to commit their International career to the, er, Irish Football Association, at Under 19 level, some of us would be very happy to help make them your players.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

What you, and others, need to come to terms with is that if these "Irish" players, don't wish to commit their International career to the, er, Irish Football Association, at Under 19 level, some of us would be very happy to help make them your players.

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The key words in the above are "some of us" (or in reality "one of us"). The IFA went to the CAS to challenge the eligibility of NI born Iirsh nationals to play for their country. Besides your opinion/ stance, there's not much to suggest that the IFA and its support accepts the CAS ruling. How the IFA conducts its selection policies, U19 or otherwise, is of little interest as long as the eligibility of Irish nationals to represent their country is preserved.

I found this interesting:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...-Slovenia.html

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Levein had already been made aware of his dual-nationality status thanks to the Professional Footballers’ Association. “[The Scottish Football Association’s Yorkshire-born chief executive] Stewart Regan deserves some credit as well,” said Levein. “He and I went down to the meet the English players’ union over a year ago. They have added an addition to the membership forms for the kids when they sign up to join – not just for us, but for Wales, Northern Ireland and others too.”

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When players join the PFA, there is a space on the form to indicate what countries you are eligible for. I'd like to see a copy of the form for the specific wording of it, but I think its a very progressive attitude. Rather than trying to force players to play for England, NI, ROI etc, why not make all their options fully available and aware to them and let kids, adults, players in general make their own decisions, and not begrudge them when they do.

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the FA on Monday indicated it is relaxed about it and believe that their developmental process, which begins with an under-16 team, is an effective system for encouraging the best English-born players to still represent England.

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Maybe the IFA should take a similiar approach. Rather than complaining when players leave their setup, evaluate why they've left and try to foster an environment that encourages players to pull on the NI jersey.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

The key words in the above are "some of us" (or in reality "one of us"). The IFA went to the CAS to challenge the eligibility of NI born Iirsh nationals to play for their country. Besides your opinion/ stance, there's not much to suggest that the IFA and its support accepts the CAS ruling. How the IFA conducts its selection policies, U19 or otherwise, is of little interest as long as the eligibility of Irish nationals to represent their country is preserved.

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To be fair to the IFA, I think they have finally accepted - whether begrudgingly or not - the right of northern-born Irish nationals to declare for the FAI. Or at least that appears to be their current public stance anyway.* It also looks as if they've acknowledged that the ball is in their court with regard to attempting to win over the broad nationalist community, if such is indeed possible, but at least it's an approach more mature than making official attempts to restrict player choice or branding players who switch "traitors" and such like many of their fans do.

Both Gerry Armstrong and Michael O'Neill have spoken about their acceptance of the findings of the CAS judgment in their writings/interviews. Even Nigel Worthington acknowledged the right of northern-born Irish nationals to declare for the FAI in his famous "north of Ireland" interview after the Kearns judgment. Residual militancy on this matter seems confined to elements within the NI support (it appears that the official stance of the AONISC remains to seek an amendment to FIFA's rules on eligibility or to seek the implementation of some sort of inter-associational agreement between the FAI and IFA) and clueless politicians with what I suspect is a greater interest in picking up a few more votes than local football in NI.

*I'm aware from his posts on ILSF that Mr_Parker believes that figures within the IFA knew full well the Kearns case was a futile endeavour, but that they decided to pursue the calamity anyway in the interests of appeasing and maintaining the faith of their fan-base.

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Originally Posted by joe_denilson

I found this interesting:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...-Slovenia.html

When players join the PFA, there is a space on the form to indicate what countries you are eligible for. I'd like to see a copy of the form for the specific wording of it, but I think its a very progressive attitude. Rather than trying to force players to play for England, NI, ROI etc, why not make all their options fully available and aware to them and let kids, adults, players in general make their own decisions, and not begrudge them when they do.

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Is this from where Gerry Armstrong gets his information on IFA potentials then? Are the FAI able to access such information? Perhaps the FAI are privy to these details and it provides them with a method of deciphering which northern-born players might be interested in representing Ireland...

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Maybe the IFA should take a similiar approach. Rather than complaining when players leave their setup, evaluate why they've left and try to foster an environment that encourages players to pull on the NI jersey.

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As outlined above, I believe the IFA to have adopted such an approach.

In related news, Shane Ferguson has been called up to the NI squad to face Norway after committing his international future to the IFA in November: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17097691

The morning's Irish Sun is also to run with a front-page story on the abuse James McClean has been receiving on Twitter from vindictive NI fans after his call-up to our senior team, according to a poster on OWC who watched 'Tonight with Vincent Browne' on TV3. The headline is apparently set to read: "Hate mob attack footie ace McClean - Sectarian bile after Trapattoni squad call up."

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

What you, and others, need to come to terms with is that if these "Irish" players, don't wish to commit their International career to the, er, Irish Football Association, at Under 19 level, some of us would be very happy to help make them your players.

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And so George and Gibson did, prior to under 19 level. They asserted their right to line out as "Irish" players (inappropriate use of inverta commas). McClean was late in doing so. He drained the IFA of their resources in the same way that Keith Fahey must have done Arsenal and Villa. The action on their behalf against Birmingham et al. must be pending.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

The morning's Irish Sun is also to run with a front-page story on the abuse James McClean has been receiving on Twitter from vindictive NI fans after his call-up to our senior team, according to a poster on OWC who watched 'Tonight with Vincent Browne' on TV3. The headline is apparently set to read: "Hate mob attack footie ace McClean - Sectarian bile after Trapattoni squad call up."

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Not to mind the bile he received prior to that. But what is funny is that their ilk comprehend that the hate bile won't result in McClean turning back to play for the IFA because they can't possibly envisage that. And so they spew this stuff towards him on Twitter and what is the end product? What do they expect to occur/achieve? I'm not sure, but it doesn't entice nationalists (generalistically speaking) to remain with the IFA.

Yes, but whatever you do don't mention this on his thread. Won't someone think of the children...
:rolleyes:

Also the North are after some Japanese club striker who plays in Holland...

The IFA are also after Japanese-born Robert Cullen: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2012/0221/cullenr.html

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

The IFA are also after Japanese-born Robert Cullen: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2012/0221/cullenr.html

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I presume that the AONISC will be demanding the IFA give compensation to the JFA for all the resources and effort they have expended on him over the years if this move does go ahead ;)

www.goal.com/football/japan-to-take-northern-ireland-to-CAS-over-cullen-tap-up






:wink:

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

The IFA are also after Japanese-born Robert Cullen: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2012/0221/cullenr.html

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This move has the potential to split the island of Japan along septarian lines; those who would consider playing for NI and those who would rather study mineral coalescence in rocks.

Vile.

Cullen plays at a pretty poor level with VVV-Venlo. His name was first mentioned on this site a few years ago. Having spent most of their history in the Eerste Divisie, Venlo are currently annual strugglers in the Eredivisie and only survived by way of a play-off against a lower-division side last season, if I remember correctly. Barry Maguire also happens to play for them.

Here is what is included in the PFA Membership Form.
http://i.imgur.com/rOsuS.png

Would love to see how Stephen Ireland completed that form!

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Would love to see how Stephen Ireland completed that form!

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He couldn't. There is only two different Grandmother spaces available.

And I notice they only want you to tick the one box.
So 'British' or Irish...

;)

With McClean now getting his chance to possibly go to the Euros, we now have as many Northern born players vying for spots as Scottish born players. Just thought it was woth mentioning considering the hysteria that surrounds this issue.