Lisbon Treaty

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26/06/2009, 5:12 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomeBrewPlease

Why should we? We didnt write a blank cheque for them to do what they want when we joined the EU. I still dont think they should do so.

Its not about being pro-EU or anti-EU. Its about the type of EU we want. If they want to make significant changes to the EU, as with this treaty which is in reality the EU constitution, then we should have a vote in whether we want that or not. In fact, I think each country should hold referenda on such treaties. The EU should be more democratic not less.

Why have a Government then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomeBrewPlease

No there wasnt. The only people spouting about conscription was the government themselves.

Any evidence to back this up?
26/06/2009, 5:24 PM
HomeBrewPlease

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Why have a Government then? Any evidence to back this up?

Why have a government? To carry out the wishes of its people. But it should be far more inclusive than just voting once every five years, being lied to with pre election promises and then have to wait another five years before you get to say anything else

Government spokespersons regularly stated on tv and radio. Page 5 of this weeks sligo champion sees Miche�l Martin state it yet again.
27/06/2009, 12:40 AM
mypost

We, the people run the country, and choose politicians to represent us, and ask them to do what's best for the country. The problem is, too many politicians do what's right for their party, and not necessarily for the people. That's not what government is about.

4 of the 5 parties (157 TD's) all support Lisbon. Every single one of them bar the 4 from SF, and a handful of independents. All parties have adopted an irreversible policy for the referendum, regardless what their constituents who elected them think. It gives 157 of them the opportunity to wine and dine at the top table in Brussels, while the electorate deal with the realities of the country on the ground. You know the outcome of the ratification of the treaty in the Dail already, (post referendum) with just 6 Nil votes. There will be a similiar relative size majority in the Seanad, with just SF, and another handful of Independents opposing it. That's not democracy, that's not doing what's best for the country, that's doing what's best for them, and a rigged farce.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. A

On the treaty itself it seems to me to be some long overdue reform of the way things work.

Who says we need reform. The public?? 3 referendums on this have dictated otherwise. No, it's politicians that say the EU needs reform. And more reform, and more reform. Apparantly the Nice Treaty, that "everyone needed" is no use now. :rolleyes: They all want Lisbon. And in another few years, they'll want something else. And they won't have to put up with inconvenient referendums to stand in their way.

Far from the disaster that France said, I was very happy with the Czech Presidency. It was much better than the hyper showboating carried out by the last President. There's no need to be arranging summits and junkets every weekend, that achieve sfa.

The EU electorate don't care. They're happy enough with the current arrangements. Hopefully the Swedish Presidency will be the latest, rather than the last state to hold the rotating Presidency.

More from Bruce Arnold:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/an...e-1793340.html
27/06/2009, 10:47 AM
Mr A

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheridan

Joe Higgins has repeatedly made the point that absolutely no-one he spoke to was under that impression, and that it appears to have entirely a fabrication on behalf of the media. Since the establishment reserves the right to tell us how to vote, it's hardly surprising that they also presume to tell us why we rejected their invitation.

Well, my personal experience was that a lot of the people I spoke to about it at the time were talking about this.
27/06/2009, 1:23 PM
superfrank

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

We, the people run the country, and choose politicians to represent us, and ask them to do what's best for the country. The problem is, too many politicians do what's right for their party, and not necessarily for the people. That's not what government is about.

By electing these politicians, we give them the power to make decisions for our country. If you're not happy with it, just don't vote them back in.
28/06/2009, 1:49 PM
Predator

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfrank

By electing these politicians, we give them the power to make decisions for our country. If you're not happy with it, just don't vote them back in.

True, but unfortunately that's not how democracy works. The truth is that one person doesn't decide who gets voted in, it's the majority, no? And the majority aren't always right.
28/06/2009, 9:16 PM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predator

The truth is that one person doesn't decide who gets voted in, it's the majority, no? And the majority aren't always right.

But if they majority are unhappy with the performance of an elected official, or of they feel that official has not been representative of them while in office, they are free to vote the official out at the next opportunity.

The problem is that a certain percent of the Irish electorate will vote for their candidate regardless of the performance of that candidate while in office. Indeed, for a certain percent, the reason they vote for a certain candidate or party has got nothing to do with what the party or candidate stands for or promises.
28/06/2009, 11:55 PM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

But if they majority are unhappy with the performance of an elected official, or of they feel that official has not been representative of them while in office, they are free to vote the official out at the next opportunity.

Well, I wasn't happy with FF in 2007, tried to elect another government, and they still got back in.

With Lisbon, it really doesn't matter who you vote for in a GE, as the main 4 parties are all unquestionably pro-European. It's not like the UK. In Ireland, they are elected on national issues, Europe is a separate issue, and must be decided on when the time comes.
02/07/2009, 12:19 AM
HomeBrewPlease

Heres the views of some FF TD's

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/...t-lisbon-deal/

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/...t-lisbon-deal/

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/...t-lisbon-deal/

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/...t-lisbon-deal/

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/...t-lisbon-deal/

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/...t-lisbon-deal/
02/07/2009, 12:42 AM
dahamsta

Nicely spotted. Obviously FF have taken up cloning as a way of dealing with their electoral woes. A massive clone army of incompetent parrots is on the way. Star Wars eat yer heart out.
02/07/2009, 5:49 AM
mypost

Who's up for President? Have you heard of this "strong, powerful" leader before?

Quote:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...y-1728005.html

The above single person (who never faced a ballot box anywhere outside his own country) could be ruling 500 million citizens for up to 5 years from next year.

Any chance of an Irish Candidate? Ever? Eh no, because France doesn't consider us big enough to do it. :rolleyes:
02/07/2009, 9:34 AM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

The above single person (who never faced a ballot box anywhere outside his own country) could be ruling 500 million citizens for up to 5 years from next year.

He'll be ruling us eh?

Personally I'm disgusted that B rian Cowen is ruling me even though he's never faced a vote outisde of Offaly..
02/07/2009, 10:10 AM
dahamsta

I've deleted pete's post because he knows damn well what he said isn't true. pete, I'll be doing that to anything I consider trolling from now on, you've been getting away with that kind of crap in CA for far too long now. If you have a problem with it, take it up in Support, not here.
02/07/2009, 10:50 AM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

Who's up for President? Have you heard of this "strong, powerful" leader before?

The above single person (who never faced a ballot box anywhere outside his own country) could be ruling 500 million citizens for up to 5 years from next year.

Any chance of an Irish Candidate? Ever? Eh no, because France doesn't consider us big enough to do it. :rolleyes:

So what's the solution then? Do we go backwards or forwards?

Oh and I thought you were happy with Nice?!

Also you do realise if the role was directly elected our small size of electorate would make us even less likely to get people in positions like this.

Mypost, it's impossible to discuss with you until you work out and state what you're for and against.
02/07/2009, 10:51 AM
micls

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheridan

Joe Higgins has repeatedly made the point that absolutely no-one he spoke to was under that impression, and that it appears to have entirely a fabrication on behalf of the media. Since the establishment reserves the right to tell us how to vote, it's hardly surprising that they also presume to tell us why we rejected their invitation.

Wherever the fabrication came from, it was a widely enough held belief. There were a fair few people who I had arguments with about how ridiculous it was.

I also had an 8 year old child come into school scared and upset on the day of the election because their parents had told them that if there was a yes vote they would have to join the army when they were 18......
02/07/2009, 11:54 AM
HomeBrewPlease

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

Wherever the fabrication came from,

Speaking of fabrication's I am just after getting a nice piece of fiction in the door from the Department of Foreign affairs, re-stating the lie that they have secured legal guarantees.
03/07/2009, 7:37 AM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Personally I'm disgusted that B rian Cowen is ruling me even though he's never faced a vote outisde of Offaly..

Brian Cowen got the votes he needed for parliament in a free and fair democratic election. What he's doing there is a separate issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ORA

So what's the solution then? Do we go backwards or forwards?

Oh and I thought you were happy with Nice?!

We go on as we are, with Nice.

Quote:

you do realise if the role was directly elected our small size of electorate would make us even less likely to get people in positions like this.

The President of Russia has to be elected to office. The President of the USA has to be elected to office. The President of Ireland also has to be elected to office.

The President of Europe, instead of facing 27 electorates, will have to be rubber-stamped by a majority of just 27 heads of state. He may be nominated unopposed to speak for and represent everyone from Austria to Wales, without their consent.

If we believe in democracy, then in order to rule the people, you must first put yourself before them and earn the powers that you're given. If that doesn't happen, it's not democracy, it's an arrangement.

Meanwhile,

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0702/ceos.html

Quote:

an overwhelming majority of chief executives see ratification of the Lisbon Treaty as the single most important factor in getting the economy back on track.

This is the kind of rubbish that needs to be corrected. :mad: The Lisbon Treaty will not get the economy back on track. If anyone believes otherwise, see the December budget as evidence. And the one the year after, and the year after.

26 countries put the Treaty past parliament. Every single one of them is now in recession, as we are. The EU neither has the will nor the funds to restart their economies, Lisbon or no Lisbon.
03/07/2009, 8:26 AM
Mr A

How is the European presidency all that different from the post of Taoiseach then? One elected by democratically elected governments, the other elected by TDs. There's one more level of abstraction, but it's not a million miles apart.

Anyhoo, doesn't Lisbon move more power to the parliament rather than the commission? Surely that's a good thing from a democratic standpoint?
03/07/2009, 4:34 PM
mypost

The parliament has no power. It's a talking shop, with no government and no opposition. It's a retirement home for failed politicians.

The Irish people in their wisdom, elected Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach, and in his resignation, Brian Cowen and his party to lead the country.

They won't elect Tony Blair, Gonzalez, or anyone else for that matter as European President. Said President won't give a flying 4x about Ireland, he will about the big 5 countries. The rest can sleep for the next 5 years.
03/07/2009, 4:36 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

The parliament has no power. It's a talking shop, with no government and no opposition. It's a retirement home for failed politicians.

The Irish people in their wisdom, elected Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach, and in his resignation, Brian Cowen.

They won't elect Tony Blair, Gonzalez, or anyone else for that matter as European President. Said President won't give a flying 4x about Ireland, he will about the big 5 countries. The rest can sleep for the next 5 years.

The people of Dublin Central voted Bertie Ahern in, not the country. It was the TDs that selcted him to lead them

Blair is being selected by the exact same people, apread out over 27 countries

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