Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by gastric

How do you then reconcile your opinion with the FIFA rules that players can change then? Isn't this the reason FIFA lets players change associations even if they have played friendlies?

Perhaps you are seeing this issue too closely through a NI point of view rather than seeing the global picture?

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I have clearly stated that under my proposal on selection policy to represent the IFA at Under 19 and above, any player choosing the FAI route initially is entitled to switch to the IFA at a later date, if they are so minded, in line with the existing Eligibility rules laid down by FIFA.

Of course I look at the issue from a Northern Ireland point of view - I make no apology for trying to find a progressive solution for the IFA going forward, which fully complies with existing FIFA Statutes.

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Originally Posted by geysir

What the law means is that a player can only change once and a change is defined by getting a senior cap.

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Except that is not what the rule says.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Begs the question why the FAI bucked the trend in Irish sport.

Although, in fairness to you, the likelihood of an "All United Kingdom" team is more likely than a, singular, All Ireland team. Both will be robustly resisted by Northern Ireland fans.

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Possibly. But most of those sports teams weren't around before the formation of the FAI.

As for 'robustly resisted', well FIFA will be quaking in their boots. Ultimately it'll depend on what England & Scotland decide to do, if they're not 'forced' to do so.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

One of the fundamental differences is that the FAI don't have a big problem with players entering their international system harbouring childhood dreams of representing another Association.

The logical way of addressing it is by encouraging/facilitating those players with dreams of representing the FAI to do that at Under 19 level, and having a selection policy centred on players whose ambition is to represent the IFA at senior International level.

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Except that anyone with that sort of fixation on :rolleyes: 'childhood dreams' is liable to be reported to their local constabulary !
Who cares what they think of as a child:Ireland, England, Brazil, South Korea.
They should be free to choose at any age. When it really matters.

So the age cap 'issue' remains as farcical as ever...

You need to change the record, FFS.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Possibly. But most of those sports teams weren't around before the formation of the FAI.

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Really?

Let's look at the sports you mentioned up thread.

IRFU - 1879
Hockey - late 19th century
GUI - 1891
Boxing - 1911

When was the FAI formed?

PS. I'll give you Rugby League.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Who cares what they think of as a child:Ireland, England, Brazil, South Korea.
They should be free to choose at any age. When it really matters.

So the age cap 'issue' remains as farcical as ever...

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I care about who they would prefer to pursue their International career with, when they turn 18.

Nothing I have propsed has involved the imposing an "age cap".

Nothing I have proposed infringes on a player's rights to switch Association at a later date.

Nothing I have proposed is in breach of any existing FIFA eligibility rules.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Except that is not what the rule says.

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The rule does not exactly define what effects the change. That's why we already discussed this for 5 or so pages, a week or so ago. Did you not follow the discussion? Why do you think Joe D was so inspired to write to FIFA directly?
Sometimes we discuss highly relevant germane eligibility topics here :D

He may only once 'request to change the Association for which he is eligible toplay international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality,'

He may only request once to change to play for another association.
So, he has to play for the other association in order to effect the change and FIFA man states that it has to be a senior game (of some description).

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Originally Posted by geysir

So, he has to play for the other association in order to effect the change and FIFA man states that it has to be a senior game (of some description).

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Why, then, would a player have to request a change of Association at all, if he hasn't played a senior International for any Association - providing they are eligible to play for the Association they now wish to represent?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Let's look at the sports you mentioned up thread.

IRFU - 1879
Hockey - late 19th century
GUI - 1891
Boxing - 1911

When was the FAI formed?

PS. I'll give you Rugby League.

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Notice you didn't mention cricket and one or two others. Anyway, when they were formed is irrelevant, given there was no cause for separate teams, if at all, until 1923 or so.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I care about who they would prefer to pursue their International career with, when they turn 18.

Nothing I have propsed has involved the imposing an "age cap".

Nothing I have proposed infringes on a player's rights to switch Association at a later date.

Nothing I have proposed is in breach of any existing FIFA eligibility rules.

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So why keep banging on about the age of 18 then, why have any age to submit to what you now refer to as a 'preference', when instead you mean something else?
If you're so resolute on this nonsense just start a campaign to get the IFA to cap people in their team when they get to 18 in competitive games.

I'm sure Michael O'Neill and his successors will take to that kindly...
And will alienate some of the players even more.
:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Notice you didn't mention cricket and one or two others.

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Apologies - Cricket was 1890.:D

Now, what were those one or two others?:D

And the relevance before 1923 is?

Do yer research...
;)

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

If you're so resolute on this nonsense just start a campaign to get the IFA to cap people in their team when they get to 18 in competitive games.

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Why would I want to do that?:confused:

Read your own posts...

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

And the relevance before 1923 is?

Do yer research...
;)

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I'd refer you to post numbers 3000, 3001, 3002 and 3043.

You will then concede that your assertion that "most of those sports teams weren't around before the formation of the FAI", was, in fact, inaccurate.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Read your own posts...

:rolleyes:

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Whilst I believe that fast tracking a player into a senior squad for a competitive match, in appropriate circumstances, has much merit, it's a different issue to having a chat with players at Under 19 to ascertain their International career preferences and helping to facilitate those preferences.

NB, what is your opinion of James McClean? My view is that this is a player, who as a person from NI felt that he should represent his own association. Then, having played for NI, realised that maybe this wasn't really for him. He then decided to change association, which under FIFA rules is totally acceptable. How does such an individual fit into your view of things? Often in life, we think we would like to do something, only to find that when we do, it really isn't for us. Stephen Ireland is an obvious example as is McClean. Shouldn't they be given this opportunity to at least try and then decide after?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

You will then concede that your assertion that "most of those sports teams weren't around before the formation of the FAI", was, in fact, inaccurate.

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And you will concede your assertion that circa 1923 is of no significance at all, then?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Whilst I believe that fast tracking a player into a senior squad for a competitive match, in appropriate circumstances, has much merit, it's a different issue to having a chat with players at Under 19 to ascertain their International career preferences and helping to facilitate those preferences.

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Aren't you contradicting yourself then?

Cue another 100+ mainly tedious posts from NB repeating the same point, then?

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Originally Posted by gastric

NB, what is your opinion of James McClean? My view is that this is a player, who as a person from NI felt that he should represent his own association. Then, having played for NI, realised that maybe this wasn't really for him. He then decided to change association, which under FIFA rules is totally acceptable. How does such an individual fit into your view of things? Often in life, we think we would like to do something, only to find that when we do, it really isn't for us. Stephen Ireland is an obvious example as is McClean. Shouldn't they be given this opportunity to at least try and then decide after?

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Somewhere down the line, McClean is going to be capped competitively* for Ireland, ending the issue of his being eligible for both NI and ROI once and for all. How would you feel if, having been capped, he then decided that he had a closer affinity with NI after all? Do you think he should be "given this opportunity to at least try and decide after"?

*Seeing as how he has requested a switch in representative teams, does he need to capped in a competitive game, or will any senior cap do?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Somewhere down the line, McClean is going to be capped competitively* for Ireland, ending the issue of his being eligible for both NI and ROI once and for all. How would you feel if, having been capped, he then decided that he had a closer affinity with NI after all? Do you think he should be "given this opportunity to at least try and decide after"?

*Seeing as how he has requested a switch in representative teams, does he need to capped in a competitive game, or will any senior cap do?

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Yes and it has happened before as in the cases I mentioned above - Lowry and Bruce. I don't belief that there has been any outcry over their decisions nor in the cases of McGinty and Keane. There seems to be an acceptance that this can occur in international football. In regards to McClean and other NI born players, it is not always as simple as just picking one association and that's it. For example, the dressing room atmosphere, the relationship between players, the attitude of the fans could all play a role in a player's decision.

S Ireland is one who comes to mind who tried and decided later.

The FAI should admit the error of their ways and ask to get back together with the IFA.

If this is not accepted then lets just carry on from where we are now.

I can't wait for 2012 to start when hopefully this tread will go into hibernation.

I know I should'nt enter the Mad House (this thread) I am attracted to it like a demented Moth to the light bulb.

Also because I have OCD and just have to clear my Thread page of unopened threads.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

And you will concede your assertion that circa 1923 is of no significance at all,

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No, I won't.

I did not make such an assertion. I believe "circa 1923" is very significant in the context of why there isn't a singular All Ireland team, unlike most other sports.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Aren't you contradicting yourself then?

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No - absolutely not.

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Originally Posted by gastric

NB, what is your opinion of James McClean? My view is that this is a player, who as a person from NI felt that he should represent his own association. Then, having played for NI, realised that maybe this wasn't really for him. He then decided to change association, which under FIFA rules is totally acceptable. How does such an individual fit into your view of things?

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McClean has apologised to the South's fans for having played for "da north".

If a player's genuine and honest intention is to represent the IFA throughout their international career, and later changes their mind, that's a risk that has to be lived with.

In the case of various defectors to the FAI, they have told the world that it was always their dream to play for the FAI.

It is those players that the IFA needs to deal with.

I have detailed how they should deal with it, and how they can assist such payers facilitating their career preference at Under 19 level.

Of course, the door to the IFA remains open to those players expressing a preference for the FAI, should they change their mind at a later date - as per current FIFA rules.

For players that are not sure about their intentions, they can always let the IFA know when they are sure.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Why, then, would a player have to request a change of Association at all, if he hasn't played a senior International for any Association - providing they are eligible to play for the Association they now wish to represent?

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Not being bound to an association is not the same as being an eligible free agent.
Just because a dual national player capped at underage level is not bound to his first association, does not mean he can bi-pass a paper trail.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Not being bound to an association is not the same as being an eligible free agent.
Just because a dual national player capped at underage level is not bound to his first association, does not mean he can bi-pass a paper trail.

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Let's recap.

I'm a Northern Irish born player, with an English father.

I play for Northern Ireland Under 19s competitively.

I make a written request to change Association to the FAI - I play competitely at Under 21 level for them.

I then decide that's not for me, and make a written request to switch back to the IFA - I play for the IFA's Under 21s.

The FA approach me to play for England, and I make a written request to change Association to the FA.

I play in a friendly Senior International for England.

We're saying all of that is ok, but I now cannot change Association again as I have played a Senior match for England?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Let's recap.

I'm a Northern Irish born player, with an English father.

I play for Northern Ireland Under 19s competitively.

I make a written request to change Association to the FAI - I play competitely at Under 21 level for them.

I then decide that's not for me, and make a written request to switch back to the IFA - I play for the IFA's Under 21s.

The FA approach me to play for England, and I make a written request to change Association to the FA.

I play in a friendly Senior International for England.

We're saying all of that is ok, but I now cannot change Association again as I have played a Senior match for England?

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Have boots will travel.

Most probably a 'Senior A Friendly' does not bind you.

As long as you had the nationality of the other country at time you were capped for your first association, you can play for the other associations.

1. "and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in aninternational match in an official competition for his currentAssociation, he already had the nationality of the representativeteam for which he wishes to play. "
   
   Before you played for NI you already had Irish nationality and you were eligible under article 16 to play for England. You are eligible to play for IFA, FAI and the FA.

What stops your wanderlust with a bullet, according to Article 18 is playing at

1. 'officialcompetition at “A” international level'

British nationality is good for 4 association. A similar situation applies for an English born player, with a Scot father/Welsh mother and NI born grandparents. He is eligible to play for 4 associations, according to article 16.
But he is bound to one, when he is
capped at 'official competition at “A” international level'.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I believe "circa 1923" is very significant in the context of why there isn't a singular All Ireland team, unlike most other sports.

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So you agree with me now then? Make your mind up!
;)

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

f a player's genuine and honest intention is to represent the IFA throughout their international career, and later changes their mind, that's a risk that has to be lived with.

In the case of various defectors to the FAI, they have told the world that it was always their dream to play for the FAI.

It is those players that the IFA needs to deal with.

I have detailed how they should deal with it, and how they can assist such payers facilitating their career preference at Under 19 level.

Of course, the door to the IFA remains open to those players expressing a preference for the FAI, should they change their mind at a later date - as per current FIFA rules.

For players that are not sure about their intentions, they can always let the IFA know when they are sure.

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Why don't you just cut and paste as your signature;a bit more appropriate than a fluke result 7 years ago...
:rolleyes:

Mick McCarthy has just been referred to as an English manager. Just thought I'd share that. It oddly hurt my brain.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Have boots will travel.

Most probably a 'Senior A Friendly' does not bind you.


As long as you had the nationality of the other country at time you were capped for your first association, you can play for the other associations.

1. "and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in aninternational match in an official competition for his currentAssociation, he already had the nationality of the representativeteam for which he wishes to play. "
   
   
   
   
   Before you played for NI you already had Irish nationality and you were eligible under article 16 to play for England. You are eligible to play for IFA, FAI and the FA.
   

What stops your wanderlust with a bullet, according to Article 18 is playing at

1. 'officialcompetition at “A” international level'

British nationality is good for 4 association. A similar situation applies for an English born player, with a Scot father/Welsh mother and NI born grandparents. He is eligible to play for 4 associations, according to article 16.

But he is bound to one, when he is
capped at 'official competition at “A” international level'.

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The relevant Statutes are no longer known as Articles 16 and 18.

I'm well aware that once you play a competitive senior international match, you are handcuffed to that Association.

I'm struggling with the number of times you can request a change of Association bit.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

So you agree with me now then? Make your mind up!

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I haven't changed my mind, so therefore there is no need for me to make my mind up.

It has always been my contention that the formation of the FAI in "circa 1923" was a major factor in why there isn't a singular All Ireland team, unlike it most other sports, who were formed on, and remain on, an All Ireland basis.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Mick McCarthy has just been referred to as an English manager. Just thought I'd share that. It oddly hurt my brain.

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Owen Coyle is constantly referred to as a "Scot" by the English media. I cringe inside every time I see it, but it's understandable why they describe him as so. McCarthy being described as an English manager is far more irritating though.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Mick McCarthy has just been referred to as an English manager. Just thought I'd share that. It oddly hurt my brain.

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I'd be more concerned with the manager part. :)

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I haven't changed my mind, so therefore there is no need for me to make my mind up.

It has always been my contention that the formation of the FAI in "circa 1923" was a major factor in why there isn't a singular All Ireland team, unlike it most other sports, who were formed on, and remain on, an All Ireland basis.

:rolleyes:

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Surely at least the FAI tried to work on an All Ireland basis by demonstrating their willingness to embrace teams and associations in the north. :wink:

That's not when they're up against parties more interested in rewriting their own form of 'history'...

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I haven't changed my mind, so therefore there is no need for me to make my mind up.

It has always been my contention that the formation of the FAI in "circa 1923" was a major factor in why there isn't a singular All Ireland team, unlike it most other sports, who were formed on, and remain on, an All Ireland basis.

:rolleyes:

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My understanding is that the FAI established themselves in 1921 with the purpose of replacing, rather than splitting from, the Belfast-centric IFA, whom those founding the FAI also perceived to possess a sectarian bias, as the all-island association. However, this ambition was never realised when the FAI were admitted to FIFA as the FAIFS in 1923 based on the 26-county jurisdiction of the Irish Free State.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I'm well aware that once you play a competitive senior international match, you are handcuffed to that Association.

I'm struggling with the number of times you can request a change of Association bit.

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All you are struggling with are your own assumptions.
Just start with understanding what defines and binds a change, the rest falls into place.


Possibly there will be one player in ten thousand who would follow that hypothetical zig zag example of yours. Generally one doesn't have to legislate against a problem which doesn't exist. The basic FIFA principle is, if a player is not capped at senior competitive level he can still chose another eligible option.

Heh, except that's way too logical for some...

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Originally Posted by geysir

Just start with understanding what defines and binds a change, the rest falls into place.

The basic FIFA principle is, if a player is not capped at senior competitive level he can still chose another eligible option.

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In FIFA man's response to JD earlier, and in your post numbers 3035, 3040, and 3046, no mention is made of "competitive".

I'm absolutely clear about what "binds" a change, but am still scratching my head about "defines" a change.

The expression used by FIFA in relation to requesting a change of Association is "only once....."

McClean hadn't played a senior international match for the IFA - yet we had some panty ****ing about delayed paperwork needed to effect his change of association. To my mind, he has now changed Association once, and the rules permit such a change only once.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

My understanding is that the FAI established themselves in 1921 with the purpose of replacing, rather than splitting from, the Belfast-centric IFA, whom those founding the FAI also perceived to possess a sectarian bias, as the all-island association. However, this ambition was never realised when the FAI were admitted to FIFA as the FAIFS in 1923 based on the 26-county jurisdiction of the Irish Free State.

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Not sure how they intended "replacing" an Asociation that had no intention of being replaced.

Anyway, semantics.

The FAI split association football on this island, happy, ultimately, to develop as a partitionist Association.

Yes. Of course. You were around then to hear them say that?

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Yes. Of course. You were around then to hear them say that?

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Are you now in denial that the FAIFS joined FIFA in 1923, and in so doing agreed that they could only adminiister/govern football in the 26 Counties of the Irish Free State, therefore becoming a partitionist Association?