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If he leaves in the summer having won two league cups and played a meaningful part in a league title, I think he can rightfully say it was a good move for him to stay as long as he did. I would have been an advocate of him leaving sooner but if he plays well down the stretch and they claim the league — he’ll always have that on his resume no matter what else happens in his career.
Do you support Liverpool by any chance Liam?Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
100% I do and I'm estatic we could provide an irish international with 2 league Cup Medals, the opportunity to play in a team at the top of the Premier league and the chance to hone his craft with the best keeper in the world if any other club could provide something similar for a few more irish internationals I would be delightedQuote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
I support Liverpool aswell and think he should have left and played regular minutes,can see an argument for both though…..Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
[QUOTE=liamoo11;2178585]100% I do and I'm estatic we could provide an irish international with 2 league Cup Medals, the opportunity to play in a team at the top of the Premier league and the chance to hone his craft with the best
Right....but is he replacing Allison or does he still need to move? If the latter then the smarter move would still have been to move earlier surely?
Either way it is brilliant to see him playing.....but as said above, it may make the inevitable even harder now. The lad could have gone and been #1 years ago with the apparent talent on show. Now Liverpool might ask for too much and he loses another few seasons.
The argument generally is or has been that Kelleher’s development has suffered by being a second choice keeper. That had he left earlier and played games he’d be much better than he is now. And there have always been those who believed he wasn’t actually that good (and as of last summer, there were people saying that championship clubs wouldn’t be interested in him due to lack of game time.)
I think it’s useful to go back to summer 2019. Himself and Mark Travers were considered basically the same level. Travers had just played against Spurs where he was excellent and he went on to make his Ireland debut in September. It was genuinely a coin toss. Travers was third choice with Ireland, Kelleher was first choice with the u21s and a 17 year old Bazunu was second choice with the 21s.
Since then, Travers has played 92 games (13 premier league, 59 championship, 8 league one - and the rest in cups). He was first choice for Bournemouth in the championship and he went on loan twice when it was clear he wasn’t first choice.
In the same time, Kelleher has played 37 games for Liverpool (10 in the league, 7 in Europe and 20 in cups). However, in my opinion, Kelleher has developed much more working every day with Alisson (maybe the best keeper in the world), with Claudio Taffarell as a goalkeeping coach and facing the likes of Mo Salah and Diogo Jota every day, along with Van Dijk marshalling a defence in front of him. Daniel Sturridge spoke today about how, from a young age, he was his personal goalkeeper for all the after training, shooting drills he used to do.
To me, he’s improved technically as a keeper hugely and he’s filled out and become physically the keeper he needed to be. He’s genuinely at the point now where he can slot into a Liverpool team replacing the best keeper in the world and the results don’t go downhill.
And to be honest, as much as I like Travers, I still see the same deficiencies in his game that were there almost 5 years ago, despite him playing many more games than Kelleher. He’s still vulnerable from crosses and corners, a bit vulnerable physically under pressure and not great with his feet.
Bazunu is a bit different cause he’s significantly younger (3 years, 4 months). Bazunu was always physically ready. And his reactions are absolutely elite - best of the 3. And he’s extremely quick - it’s a great mix. However, his handling still worries me. He spills balls way too often, his reactions protect him a little bit. He’s gone through a bad time at Southampton and come through the other side. He’s a genuinely good keeper. But I don’t think 2024 Bazunu is that much of a better goalkeeper than the 2021 version who saved the penalty against Ronaldo and won a handful of man of the match awards.
Caoimhin is gonna play 25-30 games for Liverpool this season. It’s not bad at all. He wouldn’t play that many more as a first choice in a non-European qualified Premier League side.
Sure, but it's pure fortune that he is playing. It's great but every game he gets is because Allison isn't available. Is facing Daniel Sturridge in training mode the same as playing football?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Very easy to make both arguments now to be fair. If he comes good, his path was correct. But how good could he be?
Great to see him get the games and I think we're seeing the quick improvement that comes from regular play - although maybe "improvement" doesn't describe it properly - perhaps he's had this ability for a few years but just needed the gametime to bring it out in match situations.
Does it bring up a conundrum for Liverpool? If his shot stopping and ability under crosses are on a par with Allisson, and his talent with the ball at his feet is actually better (which I believe it is), should he be the one Liverpool are trying to hold onto?
Good analysis - posts like this are the reason this forum is such a good placeQuote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
I'd counter it though and say - maybe Kelleher is just a naturally better keeper than Travers? (Who, to be clear, is a bloody good keeper to have gotten where he is)
It's great for a young keeper to be training against the best week in week out, sure. But there has to come a time that's not enough any more. I think that time has to have come, if it wasn't already a year in the past.
I'd say he has just priced himself out of the rumoured Celtic move now!
Very acomplished performance. Again, body language suggesting real self-confidence and a belief he belongs in top class company.
Superb performance and great to see. Saw this from a stats head on the tweet machine earlier:
Quote:
Caoimhin Kelleher saved 2.95 xG on target to keep a clean sheet today - a GK has only done this four times in Europe's big five leagues in the last seven seasons.
I saw that too and in all honesty it made me doubt how meaningful those XG stats are. The first stop was super but I thought it was a bit telegraphed by the striker. I think Gallagher was always second favourite in his one-on-one tbh, though of course Kelleher's positioning and decision making made him second favourite. And the third save with his foot was routine enough - albeit crucial. He was a bit like idah yesterday - what he did was good rather than extraordinary, but the context and the timing made it great. I actually think Chlesea's keeper had a good game too - but made a fatal move to his near post just as DvD was about to head the ball.
Kelleher was excellent yesterday. Would it be fair to say hes improved in recent weeks than the few games he played earlier when he was getting a little bit of stick? I'll stand by my argument that playing games will make a player sharper. But he has been better that I thought he could be in recent weeks. If he continues to play well through March I wonder will Liverpool have a decision to make.
In a world where PSR is becoming more relevant for clubs I wonder is there a scenario that Liverpool decided to sell Alisson. Its not a simple as just getting investment from your owners to sign new players anymore. If they had Kelleher on probably a quarter of Alissons wages and a big transfer fee for Alisson, that could be a pretty big investment back into a club who will be rebuilding slightly with new manager. I think, if what Im hearing about PSR is right, we are going to see clubs having to make decisions on some star players if they are trying to sign others.
I'd agree with that too but it certainly wasn't the consensus. Here's a sample of what was written around that time (sometimes I'm parsing out just the negative in a post) - but you get the picture pretty quick:Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
2019/20:
Nigelharps: Would prefer if he pushed for a January loan and some first team football, even in League One. The single biggest issue a goalkeeper can have, is a lack of proper regular game time. If he got 6 months on loan at a Championship or League One side as first choice, you could see a huge improvement in his game.
del: I'd say it could be more like a Kieran O'Hara situation if he wants regular game time, basically dropping to League 1 or League 2.
Eirambler: I do wonder what it is about Kelleher that has got him to this level ... He's everything I don't like in a keeper, not a big commanding type, never seems to save anything and always looks like he has a mistake in him… I'd say Preston will steer clear now if the rumours of their interest were true. If I was involved at Preston I'd actually look at Travers instead of Kelleher
TommyC: He simply needs first team games at any level from January. Much too early to be making an assessment on Caomhin. Let’s see where he is next summer. Travers has always impressed me and has a number of senior (albeit low level) games under his belt.
ifk: Not a fan. A loan move would help to mature his development (realistically thinking non-league). And not sure he is that good with the ball at his feet? Seems he is trying to project an air of confidence but it all feels casual, lackadaisical and iffy on back passes. His distribution from feet has room for improvement. Certainly felt his clearances were on the wayward side.
Nigel: I think he could nab himself a 6 month loan at League One level, maybe League Two.
2020/21:
Eirambler: I'm not at all convinced that he's that solid a keeper, but his ability to play the ball out will get him a long way with a lot of modern day coaches. Whether that translates to a successful loan in the Championship or League 1 is questionable though. He's a young Claudio Bravo basically…
Tommy: It will be truly bizarre and woeful career management if he doesn’t get out playing men’s football by October … The fact is he just needs to get out and play a season of senior football ASAP ... In reality he is nowhere at Liverpool and could be discarded quickly ... Grabara would probably be trusted more than Kelleher at this stage ... Liverpool actively headhunting more young promising goalkeepers is hardly promising. <referring to Pitaluga who is on loan at Pats>
Razor: It already feels like Bazunu is way ahead of Kelleher. Was playing mens football with Rovers at 16 and now playing L1 at 18. Kelleher has been treading water for last couple years it seems
Paul o Shea: The times I've seen him he hasnt looked like a good shoot stopper. More like a sweeper.
Eirambler: There's an arrogance at Liverpool and some other clubs that, because you are training with the first team, that's as good as playing matches. It's not and at this point there's no guarantee that he will make it as a professional goalkeeper, let alone a top level one. He desperately needs a loan to develop and to give him a chance at least to make it in the game.
Stutts: I even think Conor Kearns looked better for the U21s.
ifk: I don't rate Kelleher at all
Colourfulpeanut: Sitting on the bench for the year playing cup ties or dead rubber CL group games will do his development absolutely no good.
seanfhear: At 23 this year, Kelleher needs to be playing games. Hopefully something changes and he gets to play games.
2021/22:
Del: All we can go on is 'Liverpool rate him' at this stage, which doesn't really mean a whole lot other than stalling his development by not allowing him go out on loan.
Exgrad: Kelleher could really do with a loan, he's 23 in a couple of months,
Tommy: He needs senior football experience, but we’ve being saying that for the past 3 years … He needs to sort his career out… Liverpool’s treatment of him is unacceptable and does not have his best interests at heart, it’s clearly club first well before his development. He will be just as easily cast aside once they acquire a more experienced keeper … He’s firmly the third choice irish keeper in my book, behind Bazunu and Travers. Time for him to fly the Anfield nest in January and finally get some game time ANYWHERE.
Snapshot: Kelleher has yet to convince he'll ever be No.1 at Liverpool or at EPL level. I doubt it.
Razor: again I ask the question, stay until when? At 26 is it still good enough for him to be number 2 to 32 year old Allison? Who knows, by then Liverpool might have churned out 3 more brilliant young keepers. My opinion is that at the end of this season if he's not looking to move on to play at least on loan he is just comfortable with a paycheck and doesn't have the drive to be a top class keeper anyway
Bielsa: Kelleher is like a boy scout he needs one or two years living in Greater Bs As living in Hurlingham, Wilde or William C. Morris to man up a bit. He needs to be a real scoundrel to advance there.
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It goes on and and on... The reality is, he's developed into a keeper, who I think, if Alisson was to depart in the summer, Liverpool would make him number 1. Not a guarantee but that's the most likely outcome. And he's done that by training every day in a world class environment and playing very little. Meanwhile Bazunu and Travers have gone down a more conventional route, striving to play more games above all else, and their development hasn't been as dramatic (Travers since 2019, Bazunu since 2021).
Fair bit of work gone into that post!Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
In fairness, I wouldn't take foot.ie as a panel of football experts - those comments don't preclude the idea that it may have been better for his development to leave 12 months ago.
I won't argue that there weren't doubters for sure. It seems the League Cup final game was a real breakthrough game for Kelleher - though I said the same about Ferguson's hat-trick against Newcastle earlier in the season and look what that's done for him...
Interesting one for the new manager/phone in vote/chatGPT query now.
I'd be picking Kelleher. Playing regularly now at a higher level than Bazunu. Maybe harsh on Bazunu as he's generally been very good for Ireland but I'm sure he's always expected that Kelleher would get the gloves at some point for at least a while.
Worth noting xG isn't a great metric to judge keepers by. A forward fluffing a shot in a great position could have a high xG but still be an easy save. PSxG is intended as a better metric for a keeper performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
it was more the fact that it was such a rare achievement. What he did yesterday was top class but not one of the great performances of recent years that that particular interpretation of the metric suggests. But point taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
And elatedscum, Kearns DID look better in the Toulon tournament :)
I can find fault with Kelleher's performance against Chelsea yesterday. His hair wasn't combed and one of his boots had muck on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
Bazunu and Kelleher are due to play against each other on Wednesday night in FA Cup... unless Bazunu is left out, which happens for the cup games sometimes