Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by osarusan

I think your decision not to differentiate is nonsense in the extreme.

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Yes I don't differentiate, because the principle of denying a dream is the same. You can think it's nonsense all you wish.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Who actually does that though?

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Although I've been careful to point out that it might be unfair to portray every player who has declared for ROI after some underage enxerience with NI as devious and calculating, I'm of the opinion that it would be naive to suggest that there hasn't been even one player who continued to join even one NI underage squad having decided that his allegiance lay with ROI. As no player so far has (been idiotic enough to) come out and admit this to be the case, I can't give you any name.

Red herring (sushi?) alert...

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Originally Posted by Predator

What I have expressed is not an attempt to counter what you have said there. You are the one who is dodging the sentiment I raise. The problem I have is that you appear to be so worked up about those such as McClean/Duffy who are said to be denying dreams at underage level, but are willing to accept those English born lads who are also arguably (certainly, if the notion is to be taken seriously) denying dreams.

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My angst for players like Duffy & McClean is that they represented Northern Ireland at underage levels, whilst harbouring ambitions to play for another Association at senior level.

Such minded players remaining in our underage setup should be weeded out, in favour of those with ambitions to represent Northern Ireland at senior international level.

It's a good job for the North then, the English & SFA's amongst others, don't apply these same standards...
;)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

You've caught me somewhat tired and cranky this morn, however, and I do resent your running deceit with regard to this matter, along with the insincere accusation of paranoia you've since thrown at me. Rather than thinking of it as paranoid, think of it as being not completely pig-****ing-thick when I perceive this to be a shot directed at myself along with your attempted smoke-machine defence of the reference to James McClean as a "provo" as an insult to the intelligence of anyone who has bothered following your brazen efforts to obfuscate the issue and worm your way around it.



I'll interpret that as an admission that the reference to McClean as a "provo" was inappropriate then...

And in case there's still some unwillingness on your part to acknowledge this, or a residual confusion as to why it was inappropriate - although I suspect it's more likely you're just playing dumb here - it was absolutely not because the idiot who disparaged McClean would and should have been "more accurate" in referring to an open Sinn Féin supporter as a "Provo/Provisional Movement supporter", a twisted and irrelevant straw man you've since spent a number of pages attempting to erect. We all know that was not the connotation behind the label used as it was on OWC. It was inappropriate for the following number of reasons; don't necessarily think of them as exhaustive.

Sinn Féin refer to themselves officially as just that; Sinn Féin. Note the missing word/letter. You won't find one mention of the word "Provisional" on their home page. They also outline the following in an introductory document:



Couldn’t be more clear.

The PIRA are effectively defunct as an organisation and have been for a number of years. Take your pick from since either 1997 or 2005; whichever you prefer. Republican Sinn Féin, in terming themselves as they do, officially do any necessary distinguishing from Sinn Féin for you in their own title, thereby making it wholly surplus to requirements for you or anyone else to continue referring to Sinn Féin as "PSF". There is no ambiguity in the simple use of Sinn Féin nowadays. It is especially unnecessary outside of an intra-republican context where the two organisations aren't even being discussed at once, if even extra clarification would be necessary within such a context, except to also make some political point. Everyone knows who Sinn Féin are and to which organisation one would be referring when using that title. And do you really believe that RSF are a genuine political force or anything other than a peripheral organisation within contemporary Irish republicanism, never mind Irish politics generally? Or was your reference to their apparent increasing strength merely another attempt to further lead us down the garden path; to pretend that they have a level of popularity and influence (indeed miniscule in reality) approaching something that might even nearly challenge Sinn Féin's claim over the Sinn Féin title, thereby invoking some need for disambiguation? The whole need for distinction by use of "Provisional" or "P" has become redundant with time, yet you still try to hoodwink myself and others here that you adhere to the strict use of a completely superfluous and outmoded distinction at all times. Are we supposed to believe that you genuinely fear people might think you're actually referring to a virtual non-entity when you mention Sinn Féin without a prefix? I certainly don’t.

It is fairly obvious that anyone who derisively dubs someone a "provo" in the current political climate is doing so to make a snide political point. In the context of OWC, it was so obviously anything but neutral and was loaded with contemptuous and slanderous innuendo that I can't believe you're still trying to defend it via unrelenting faux-denial. I mean, why else would anyone even mention the term if not to make some cheap point? Could you imagine Sinn Féin assembly members being referred to as "provos" by their unionist counterparts up in Stormont? Of course not. Well, OK, I admit I wouldn’t put it past the likes of Jim Allister, but other than that...

Have a read of this: http://www.tuv.org.uk/press-releases...-provo-victory

A story about the proposed conflict resolution centre on the old Maze site, and it's even tagged under "terrorism". It's abundantly clear the baggage the term "provo" carries in unionist circles, especially eccentric ones.

You’d think I was having a laugh if I started insulting you with various slurs that might be offensive to a unionist in certain contexts and then made it worse by blaming your sensitivity and paranoia for you taking offence because, after all, a unionist is exactly what you are. It'd be the height of ignorance and denial on my part. You surely must be aware that certain labels can have different meanings when used within different contexts and, depending on the intent behind them, might be considered pejorative in certain scenarios but not in others. I go back to the famous distinction between a white man referring to a black man as a "n*gger" and a black man referring a black man as a "n*gger". You think it would be acceptable for the white man to turn around and feign ignorance to the black man claiming, "But how can you get all worked up about this when a n*gger is exactly what you are?" You grew up in a region dogged by violent political conflict where verbal nuance was a public necessity in order to ensure various identities and sensitivities were respected, for God’s sake! It is important that unionists relinquish any last vestiges of that infamous culture of denial y'know. ;)

Now, it would help if you acknowledged what you've been doing.

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My, you were cranky this morning DI.:D

To cut to the chase, in response to your, somewhat emotional, rant.

(P)SF and PIRA are part of the one movement ie. The Provisional Movement.

They form one body, with two heads. One being military, the other being their political apologists. They are inextricably linked. Many of the movement's political apologists in (P)SF have seen "active service" in PIRA.

There is no splitting of the two.

I acknowledge that the military wing of the Provisional Movement is currently dormant, and that the Movement have decided to persue their objectives through a political strategy only.

On the understanding that the military wing of the Movement would give up it's "armed struggle" and criminality, I was prepared to vote "YES" to the political apologists of the military wing (in some cases, individuals who served in the military wing eg, our Deputy First Minister) helping govern this part of the United Kingdom. I was also prepared to allow members of the military wing to be released from jail, under licence - individuals who committed henious crimes. Some of these individuals now sit in our Assembly, or get cushy jobs at Stormont as advisers.

So, in the interests of a brighter future for all of us, I was prepared to to forgive (for want of a better expression) the past, and "move on".

I will not, however, forget - or bow to those who wish to, conveniently, sweep the history of The Provisional Movement under the carpet.

I remain supportive of the current power sharing arrangements we have in Northern Ireland

However much you sream, whinge, kick up, gurn etc, I will not be changing my opinions about the Provisional Movement (Provos).

I would recommend you read "The Provos: The IRA and Sinn Fein" by Peter Taylor.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

It's a good job for the North then, the English & SFA's amongst others, don't apply these same standards...
;)

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Ditto, it's a good job for the South.:D

You still don't get it though.

I bet you're a whizz at "Spot The Difference".

One of the moderators over on 'Are We A Country' seems a little upset by McClean turning down the IFA call-up, although at least he didn't call him a Provo like NB.

Mr McLean abusing the IFA under age system as he touted himself out to John Delaney and the rest of the Tarmac crew

:)

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Although I've been careful to point out that it might be unfair to portray every player who has declared for ROI after some underage enxerience with NI as devious and calculating, I'm of the opinion that it would be naive to suggest that there hasn't been even one player who continued to join even one NI underage squad having decided that his allegiance lay with ROI. As no player so far has (been idiotic enough to) come out and admit this to be the case, I can't give you any name.

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Shane Duffy:

"No disrespect to Northern Ireland, but I would rather be playing for my country."

Did "his country" only become "his country" after representing another country at Under 16, 17, 19, 21, "B" levels, and being in the squad at senior level?

Why wasn't he playing then for "his country", when he had the choice to do so all along- all he had do was pick up the phone to Dublin?

If there are any other players in the Northern Ireland underage setup who "would rather be playing for their country", they should be helped along the path to their country's FA.

I'd much prefer to have players representing Northern Ireland at underage level, who would rather play for Northern Ireland at senior international level - no disrespect to Duffy et al.

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Originally Posted by co. down green

One of the moderators over on 'Are We A Country' seems a little upset by McClean turning down the IFA call-up, although at least he didn't call him a Provo like NB.

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I didn't call McClean a Provo.

I called him a Provo Supporter, later moderated to a supporter of the Provisional Movement (following discussion with DI), in line with comments posted by McClean himself on his Facebook page

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

If there are any other players in the Northern Ireland underage setup who "would rather be playing for their country", they should be helped along the path to their country's FA.

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It's clear that Lee Camp would rather be playing for his country !!!

Lee Camp January 2010 "Absolutely it is something I would aim for in the future, I would love to play for England," he said. "I have played at every level asides from the senior leve"l.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Ditto, it's a good job for the South.

You still don't get it though.

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Don't get what?
Your tedious repetitive hypocritical whinging? Or constant dysgeographica?

As for the 'comedy', don't give up the day job...
:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by co. down green

It's clear that Lee Camp would rather be playing for his country !!!

Lee Camp January 2010 "Absolutely it is something I would aim for in the future, I would love to play for England," he said. "I have played at every level asides from the senior leve"l.

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Yes, indeed.

Having become clear in his mind that he wasn't going to represent his country at senior international level, he decided to commit to our senior international team.

At no point did he represent our country whilst harbouring realistic ongoing ambitions to represent his country.

Therein lies the difference.

How do you know though??


As in the above point. The one this is immediately, er, below. Doh.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

How do you know though??

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How do I know what?

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

As in the above point. The one this is immediately, er, below. Doh.

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That Camp decided to commit to our senior team?

Erm, because I watched him play for our senior team, which ended any ongoing ambitions he might of had of playing for England's senior international team.

Doh.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Yes, indeed.

Having become clear in his mind that he wasn't going to represent his country at senior international level, he decided to commit to our senior international team.

At no point did he represent our country whilst harbouring realistic ongoing ambitions to represent his country.

Therein lies the difference.

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http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons...jpg?1248715065

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

At no point did he represent our country whilst harbouring realistic ongoing ambitions to represent his country.

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Perhaps that's the point when NI born players switch - ie when their ambitions to represent their country become realistic. Otherwise they can't be accused of being any different from the Lee Camps of this World. Like Lee Camp, they perhaps feel their ambitions to represent their country are out of their reach (let's be honest about it - it's a massive step up from representing NI) so they settle for second best.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Perhaps that's the point when NI born players switch - ie when their ambitions to represent their country become realistic. Otherwise they can't be accused of being any different from the Lee Camps of this World. Like Lee Camp, they perhaps feel their ambitions to represent their country are out of their reach (let's be honest about it - it's a massive step up from representing NI) so they settle for second best.

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If Northern Irish born lads want to play for the South, the first step is for them to contact the FAI as their first port of call. Don't bother at all with the IFA.

Chase the dream. That's realistic.

Don't wear our shirt unless you want to play senior international football for Northern Ireland.

If it doesn't work at at underage level with the FAI, then they can let the IFA know they'd consider a switch, with ambitions of representing our senior international team.

Our underage setup cannot be allowed to continue being a breeding ground for bigger Association's senior international sides.

Actions to stop/limit this happening must be put in place.

Lee Camp wanted to play for England, and did so, until it became clear to him he wasn't likely to play at senior level for them.

http://www.thesocialclubni.com/the-s...e-enemy-within

Mark McIntosh is a leading sports journalist in NI for those that don't know him.