Everton and Liverpool discussion

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Originally Posted by Pike B

Total and utter bollx..
1:Howard-Reina 0-1
2:Lescott-Arbeloa 1-1
3:Hibbert-Aurelio 1-2
4:Jagielka-Carragher 1-3
5:Yobo-Agger 1-4
6:Neville-Mascherano 1-5
7:Pienaar-Kuyt 2-5
8:Arteta-Gerrard 2-6
9:Saha-Torres 2-7
10:Cahill-Alonso 2-8
11:Yakubu-Riera 3-8..

Pretty conclusive in my book lads.. ;)

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If only things were that simple. Anyway even in your 10 yr old method of establishing the better team I think you've been fairly gererous with your team selections and pairings. Baines is a first choice Everton player now and would p!ss on Dossena or Aurelio or whichever of Rafa's beloved full backs u wish to put there. I think it would have been fairer for Gerrard to have been competing with Cahill (still winning obviously) and it would have left Arteta against Alonso which is pretty close i reckon. Why u are comparing Yakubu to Riera is anybody's guess seeing as both Liverpool and Everton's preferred line up would be with a lone striker with Gerrard/Cahill arriving late in support. Agger is no longer first choice at Liverpool (if he ever was) which is ridiculous but it's the way it is and if u were to pair Lescott against Carragher at the moment he would win easily enough (imo of course) and Jagielka would also have the edge on Skertel in recent weeks. Also the goalkeepers are too close to call for me, Howard better under crosses and Reina a better shot stopper.

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

If only things were that simple. Anyway even in your 10 yr old method of establishing the better team I think you've been fairly gererous with your team selections and pairings. Baines is a first choice Everton player now and would p!ss on Dossena or Aurelio or whichever of Rafa's beloved full backs u wish to put there. I think it would have been fairer for Gerrard to have been competing with Cahill (still winning obviously) and it would have left Arteta against Alonso which is pretty close i reckon. Why u are comparing Yakubu to Riera is anybody's guess seeing as both Liverpool and Everton's preferred line up would be with a lone striker with Gerrard/Cahill arriving late in support. Agger is no longer first choice at Liverpool (if he ever was) which is ridiculous but it's the way it is and if u were to pair Lescott against Carragher at the moment he would win easily enough (imo of course) and Jagielka would also have the edge on Skertel in recent weeks. Also the goalkeepers are too close to call for me, Howard better under crosses and Reina a better shot stopper.

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Ah no..
Jagielka is slow, and nowhere near Carra. I'd agree Yakubu Riera was a bad comparison, but my point in the end is simply Liverpool ARE much better man for man than Everton.

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Originally Posted by Pike B

Ah no..
Jagielka is slow, and nowhere near Carra. I'd agree Yakubu Riera was a bad comparison, but my point in the end is simply Liverpool ARE much better man for man than Everton.

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Jags slow!?!?!? are you for real?? He has marked Torres for nearly 300 minutes in the last few weeks and has given him one shot on goal. And he has been incomparable to Carragher this season. Fair play to Carragher for what he has done in his career but time catches up on every man and Jags has been in a different class this season. Only Vidic has been better than him in his position this year.

Baines is getting better and better each week, Lescott is returning to last year's form and Arteta really is the best little spaniard i know as the song says.

Liverpool had 3 games to prove that they are better than everton and apart from the second half of the cup game, when despite a lot of possession liverpool still didn't create many chances, everton have been every bit as good. Howard didn't make a single save in 120 minutes in the cup game so you and every liverpool fan can think that liverpool are much better than everton but everton proved over the last few weeks that simply isn't the case.

I don't get the Jagielka love in, & now he's apparently made the England squad! To me he looks slow and awkward and has abysmal distrobution (I'm no Carragher fan either btw), I wouldn't even have him in my first choice Everton back 4.....
Comparing players 1v1 is a fairly pointless excercise, put down the 2 squads and pick your bext XI with 5 subs, you'll end up with a side pretty balanced form both teams.

Jagielka is a poor player. Slow, terrible passer and not too great in the air.
It's the John Terry syndrome.
Rated better than he actually is because he's english.

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Originally Posted by Pike B

Jagielka is a poor player. Slow, terrible passer and not too great in the air.
It's the John Terry syndrome.
Rated better than he actually is because he's english.

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cough...Steven Gerrard.. cough...cough

Jags has kept Lescott and now Yobo out of central defence for something like 18 months you dont do that if you are slow and over rated.

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Originally Posted by Pike B

Jagielka is a poor player. Slow, terrible passer and not too great in the air.
It's the John Terry syndrome.
Rated better than he actually is because he's english.

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agger / skyrtel carragher also terrible passers & not to great in the air either :D

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Originally Posted by anto1208

cough...Steven Gerrard.. cough...cough

Jags has kept Lescott and now Yobo out of central defence for something like 18 months you dont do that if you are slow and over rated.

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Lescott and Yobo??? Two powerhouse names in World football.. Better than them meself..

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Originally Posted by old git

agger / skyrtel carragher also terrible passers & not to great in the air either :D

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Agger is a wonderful passer.
Carra not bad.
Skrtel no comment..:)

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Originally Posted by Pike B

Lescott and Yobo??? Two powerhouse names in World football.. Better than them meself..

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Sigh...

I would agree that Agger uses the ball very well but isn't really given the opportunity often enough by Rafa. I think there have been some harsh/ridiculous critisisms of Jagielka in the last few posts. Whether he's blessed with pace or not he's been outstanding recently. He reads the games superbly well as does Lescott who's an animal of a player as well in fairness. Also because Liverpool haven't beaten Everton in any of the recent matches doesn't prove anything, they are 14 points ahead of them in the league and finish ahead of them consistently yr after yr, as well as challenging for the Champions Lge every year which everton would scarcley do even if they did qualify. I'm not a fan of either of these clubs by the way but as Rafa would say...these are facts!!:)

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Originally Posted by Pike B

Agger is a wonderful passer.
Carra not bad.
Skrtel no comment..:)

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ok will give you agger ,, but wonderful a bit over the top

but carra not bad .. not bad if you are sitting in the crowd as you will get plenty of passes :D:D

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Originally Posted by old git

ok will give you agger ,, but wonderful a bit over the top

but carra not bad .. not bad if you are sitting in the crowd as you will get plenty of passes :D:D

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Read his book. He reckons he's top class. I agree with it..
Defending anyways!! :D

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Originally Posted by Pike B

Read his book. He reckons he's top class. I agree with it..
Defending anyways!! :D

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sure don't must of them reckon they are top class these days :D

hope ure defending is top class out in shannon sunday morning.. if i can get out of bed might go up and watch your match :p

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Originally Posted by old git

sure don't must of them reckon they are top class these days :D

hope ure defending is top class out in shannon sunday morning.. if i can get out of bed might go up and watch your match :p

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I'll look forward to seeing you there pal. I'll be the guy up front on his own wondering if he'll ever see the ball!!! :D

Some really unfair comments about Jagielka there. I am a red, no longer match-going and I have to say that he is an outstanding defender. I fail to see a flaw in his game. I also really like Arteta and Cahill as Everton players go.

It was hard to even put a team out yesterday with all the injuries but another very good performance to see off villa 3-1. Artetta again ran the show in the centre i think he should screw spain and declare for England next year :) how he hasnt even made it into 1 spanish squad is beyond me. Cahill again fantastic rounding off the day with a goal should have had two only for Petrov to handle it on the line. And again Rodwell was very good such a tidy player.

Thats 2 of the so call top 4 dispatched now and with a draw at home to either west ham or boro a semi final looks like it could be on the cards.

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Originally Posted by reder

Some really unfair comments about Jagielka there. I am a red, no longer match-going and I have to say that he is an outstanding defender. I fail to see a flaw in his game. I also really like Arteta and Cahill as Everton players go.

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Can i ask why you are no longer a match goer??

Liverpool win away at Real Madrid and next game are well beaten by the mighty Middlesboro. Neither rhyme nor reason to those inconsistent performances, except Rafa of course.

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

Can i ask why you are no longer a match goer??

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Im just completely deluded with the club. The people I went to games with and met there, family and friends, no longer go to games. The club itself is a pale shadow of its former self and personally, I feel no affection towards it.

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Originally Posted by reder

Im just completely deluded with the club. The people I went to games with and met there, family and friends, no longer go to games. The club itself is a pale shadow of its former self and personally, I feel no affection towards it.

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I always thought a club was for life, in good times and in bad and not just when it is constantly winning league titles?

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I always thought a club was for life, in good times and in bad and not just when it is constantly winning league titles?

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It is. I went for 19 years after we won our last one. People like me were going in the last 90's early 00's when the games werent even selling out and we were losing to the likes of Leicester City. Personally, I would prefer if the club stayed like that. I certainly would still be going to games.

Unfortunately, its now fashionable to go to a club like Liverpool, so they have no problem replacing fans like me. We are just a wallet and not a great one considering we only give the club ticket money and dont spend a few hundred sterling in the club shop.

Also, the fanbase has become utterly classless.

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Originally Posted by reder

Im just completely deluded with the club. The people I went to games with and met there, family and friends, no longer go to games. The club itself is a pale shadow of its former self and personally, I feel no affection towards it.

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Each to their own and all that. I like yourself am going over since 1986 and just couldn't give it up for anything. Fellas like yourself are missed at Tthe games and i feel it's sad your support for the club is now gone. Hopefully you'll be back and soon. We all get frustrated with the club at times.

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

We all get frustrated with the club at times.

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Yep, must be tough supporting a team in the last 8 in the CL and 2nd in the Premiership :p

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

Each to their own and all that. I like yourself am going over since 1986 and just couldn't give it up for anything. Fellas like yourself are missed at Tthe games and i feel it's sad your support for the club is now gone. Hopefully you'll be back and soon. We all get frustrated with the club at times.

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You can never say never, I suppose. Nobody knows what the future holds but at this moment in time I cant see myself returning.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Yep, must be tough supporting a team in the last 8 in the CL and 2nd in the Premiership :p

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My reasons do not relate to the success, or lack there of, of the club. Success isnt everything.

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Originally Posted by reder

You can never say never, I suppose. Nobody knows what the future holds but at this moment in time I cant see myself returning.



My reasons do not relate to the success, or lack there of, of the club. Success isnt everything.

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Exactly.

Everton can look woeful at times and yet they seem to always manage a top 10 finish. That was some thrasging and awful defending against Arsenal today. I expect them to bounce back though.

Hats off to David Moyes for leaving out Lescott in the game tonight.

If Moyes stops thinking Lescott is worth 30 million he can leave him out of the team for good (i.e. he can ship him off to Man City!).

Everton have completed the signing of Netherlands defender Johnny Heitinga from Atletico Madrid for a fee of £6m. Obviously the rumours of Dunne going there proved unfounded. A 5 year deal apparently so Moyes in planning long term. I don't know a lot about Heitinga but is he really better than Dunne who could have given Everton a good 3 or 4 years? I think his no nonsense style would have suited them.

Heitinga is far more versatile than Dunne and that was probably the major influence. He can play RB, CB, DM, CM competently and with Everton having a relatively small first team squad its a no brainer. I'm a big fan of Heitinga especially as a defensive mid, he has had a few rough patches in his career but I think he's a talent and a bargain at £6m and the premiership style of footie should suit him.

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Originally Posted by Oink

Heitinga is far more versatile than Dunne and that was probably the major influence. He can play RB, CB, DM, CM competently and with Everton having a relatively small first team squad its a no brainer. I'm a big fan of Heitinga especially as a defensive mid, he has had a few rough patches in his career but I think he's a talent and a bargain at £6m and the premiership style of footie should suit him.

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But do Everton need a "defensive mid" - the Arsenal result apart - their problem I think last season was putting the ball in the onion sack but that's only from me, a casual observer.

Is there light at the end of the tunnel? http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archiv...to-shrink.html

We have to beat Villa this weekend

I still haven't forgiven them for 1966 :p

Are they one of the few teams never to have been relegated from the top flight or am I wrong?

I see Everton's suggestion to Liverpool that they construct a shared ground has been given the cold shoulder by Liverpool.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...-new-home.html

Everton were the better team in yesterday's derby but still managed to come out on the wrong end of a 0-2. I thought they played some good stuff in the first half but just don't have that cutting edge. Liverpool, won but the victory papers over the cracks.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Everton were the better team in yesterday's derby but still managed to come out on the wrong end of a 0-2. I thought they played some good stuff in the first half but just don't have that cutting edge. Liverpool, won but the victory papers over the cracks.

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Agree totally, Liverpool are impotent without Torres and will never be an attacking force with 2 defensive midfielders in the middle.
Everton like Liverpool are lacking in a decent striker and confidence.

Interesting article today on the 50th anniversary of Bill Shankly's taking the reins at Liverpool:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/m...y_1534159c.jpg

Probably the best British manager of all time with Brian CLough a close second.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...end-apart.html

I also love some of his quotes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...l-manager.html

I heard Phil Thompson saying recently that Moyes had done "an unbelievable job" at Everton. He said it on Sky so it's the usual "skyperbole" but I would suggest that perhaps "reasonable" would be a better description. They were once a club that used to win things (the 1966 FA CUp Final still hurts) but now they seem to have settled for comfortable existence in the Premiership. They seem to be having a shot this year at the FA Cup (I know they lost a Final and a semi a few years back) but is that enough for a club like Everton or is, without the money of the Liverpools or Man Us/Citys/Chelseas, mid-table mediocrity now an unbelieveable achievement?

Average 14th place finish in the pre-Moyes years, average is 8th place now. 5th this year, and look at the budgets of the team above them (and a number below them).