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I forgot to mention previously that McLean is among the minority of Irish players who sign the anthem. Nice to see. It always irritated me during the Charlton era that the players not born in Ireland never bothered learning the words in English and at least singing them rather than just staring mutely at the flag. Mind you some of the home born players did that as well and continue to do.
Kind of figured he is tone deaf...Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
I think the fact he was willing into stand up for himself wins him some respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
They would expect one of their players to do the same if the circumstances were reversed.
And of course they are dishing it out so they will think it is fair game.
I had not noticed the likes when I visited but it did get a lot, over twice as many as an abusive post on that page, so he has won the Sunderland fans over!
I think the fact he was willing into stand up for himself wins him some respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
They would expect one of their players to do the same if the circumstances were reversed.
And of course they are dishing it out so they will think it is fair game.
I had not noticed the likes when I visited but it did get a lot, over twice as many as an abusive post on that page, so he has won the Sunderland fans over!
But he will get respect from them because 90% would have done the same and they would not think much of someone
who meekly walked down the tunnel.
From the couple of pages I read, this was definitely the highlight:
"So a lad gets booed for 90 minutes, probs abused verbally as well when in ear shot of SAFC fans, and when he celebrates a win everyone takes the high ground. Give your vaginas an airing tonight chaps"
Not trying to hide on the subject or not respond to other opinions:
I can appreciate that my posts on this subject don't appear the cleverest. Of course racism is a catch-all situation. It's probably my own lack of education on the issue, or the scope of my exposure to sectarianism, that makes my posts stupid. Then of course my utter dislike of McClean clouds my judgement of the subject.
Bottom line, I don't think any player is wrong to react towards fans at the end of a game who have abused him throughout a game, and absolutely it's pantomime stuff for fans to be in uproar if players make gestures. I just think there is a time and a place for reactions, without turning the forum all dramatic on the subject.
Problem is the politicisation of none political events, you go to a football match to watch football, it is not a political rally.
McClean wears his heart on his sleeve, as we're all well aware, but he's entitled to do that without being subjected to xenophobic abuse (and that's what it was, no matter whether one might think they've heard or seen worse in other contexts). There's a difference between a fist-pump at fans in triumph and subjecting a player to ninety minutes of directed xenophobic abuse. He's not gone out of his way singling people out for unsavoury abuse. It was a nothing incident and it was the reaction of Graham in creating a physical confrontation that made it "newsworthy".Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
McClean is also entitled to emphasise his identity (which isn't harming anyone) elsewhere, republican or whatever - there's no crime in that - without having others trying to impose their views upon him. The only reason it ever became an issue on the football field is because he was forced into making uncomfortable decisions by those who (you might even say inappropriately) organise the poppy spectacle and by those who decided to play a national anthem before a club friendly. I'm sure James would be glad to play football without such distractions; even if he is strong and resolute in character, could you really say being on the end of such vitriolic abuse week in and week out would be comforting for anyone? He's a tough kid, but to say he enjoys it? I dunno... Would or could anyone, besides the masochist, enjoy that?
There's been a lot of victim-blaming of McClean but those who were abusing him are ultimately responsible for their own idiocy and actions. It would have been nice to see the FA comment on that too, yet they formally warned McClean?... They should have encouraged Sunderland (by strong words or some form of penalisation) to find the fans responsible and engage with them in a programme that would educate them as to the problem with what they were doing.
What is it that causes your utter dislike of McClean? Is it just his brashness/upfrontness or is there something else?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...tle-links.html
It's nice to see the story has died down. I think everyone, bar some Sunderland supporters, realises it was a fairly tame gesture on McClean's part, even if it was slightly antagonistic.
Also, interesting to note that it was Danny Graham who confronted him. Danny Graham would identify as Geordie. However, a nice wage saw him move to Sunderland (see his comments re same above). It's a very funny contrast to see one so willing to put money over identity shove and confront James McClean. And, as someone stated, it's not by scoring goals that Graham is going to earn Sunderland fans' respect.
Even though I don't come from the North or support WBA, I think James McClean is my favourite character in football. I'd have him up there with my all-time footballing idol, Roy Keane. Not for footballing reasons but for his strength of character and determination and refusal to adhere to dictation.
Lee Cattermole was asked about it on a interview for Soccer Saturday. To be fair he really played it down, saying "it was nothing" a few times. He did mention it was a small but disappointing as Sunderland gave him a huge opportunity but said it was just heat of the moment stuff.
Assist for McClean!!
Norwich 0 West Brom 1 Rondón 46'
I had been watching bit of it but missed the goal, McClean made a good run earlier on beating his man and putting in a good cross, nothing came of it though.
He just got booked tackle form behind :)
Hoolalhan off.
http://westbrom.com/forum/index.php?topic=17313.0
A lot of praise reserved for McClean on the WBA forum after the match:
"Good move by Pulisto double up down the Norwich right to allow McClean to help out Brunt" I think Brunt was given MOTM. McClean helping on that front.
"I was really impressed with McLean today, his final ball was vastly improved on previous weeks. "
"Sessegnon, McLean and Myhill were all top for me but no-one played particularly badly."
"McClean is showing himself to be a bargain and what a friggin' cross for Rondons perfectly finished header. "
"Sess and McLean don't have put a shift in."
http://sportyhighlights.com/norwich-...-1-highlights/
It was a very lovely cross from our James. Lovely outswing on it to avoid the keeper and picked out the target lovey. Great run and great first time cross.
How dare he use such a controversial and symbolically religious type of assist?! A cross no less. What about a perfectly neutral through ball or dink?! Absolutely outrageous, immature and inflammatory behaviour from this clown again. When will this end? He needs to f*cking cop on!!!
He seems to be in fine form at the moment, playing well for West Brom who are quite high up the table now.
Is that his first assist in a competitive game? Think it is. Good to see him in good form and the fans behind him.
Thing is, we know McClean is capable of relentless endeavour but he's also capable of end-product. The problem for him is that the former is ever-present but the latter is inconsistent. If he can add a bit of consistency in attacking contributions to the effort that Pulis values then he's bound to become a favourite among the fans.
WBA have only scored 8 goals in their 10 games so far this season which is the joint lowest in the league (alongside Liverpool, Watford and Sunderland). Would be nice to see James peg on a couple to that before Christmas to really enhance his worth to the side. He went on a good run of goals last season at Wigan.
With poppy-mania fast approaching its climax again, I wrote a piece to give some thoughts on a suggestion that James is in need of a history lesson, the nature and diversity of meaning conferred upon the symbol and its popular promotion (especially in respect of the north of Ireland) and the episode with the Sunderland fans and players last weekend.
You can read it here, if interested: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com...episode-three/
Nail on the head, as usual, Danny.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
It's actually hilarious how England completely sweeps it's imperialistic conquests under a rug, contrary to, for example, the way the Germans have a Nazi shame.
Excellently presented Danny.
It ups the standards around here to have an actual scholar on board.
Cor, I dunno about that, but cheers for the complimentary words!Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
great piece, well doneQuote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Conor McGregor's incoherent ramblings might take some of the heat of James this poppy season!
I said it yesterday when I saw that, you could read that for days and still not be completely sure what he's trying to say. Anyway, gets attention back on him I suppose, six weeks to the next fight right?
He was replying to a recently posted 2 year old picture depicting him wearing the poppy and with comment sarcastically questioning his use of the 1916 ballad (The Foggy Dew) as his intro song.
Not worth a comment on this thread, James has enough about him to take up all the available space in his own thread, there's not even space left for McGregor's watch.
True enough I suppose, my bad.
Thank God for Conor McGregor. He'll stop the Indo from moaning about our footballers' being overpaid knackers.
I know what he's been doing and done but I don't like him, something does tell me though that behind it all he is probably a nice guy.
That Daily Mail article is so pitiful. Refers to McClean as "Northern Ireland born" and has no evidence or specific info regarding the alleged "barracking." Just seeking to draw attention to the lack of a poppy on McClean's shirt again and make a story out of him for a few clicks.
Has anybody bother to read the story and facts behind the poppy?
http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/201...er-united-fan/Quote:
The use of the poppy was inspired by the World War I poem "In Flanders Fields". Its opening lines refer to the many poppies that were the first flowers to grow in the churned-up earth of soldiers' graves in Flanders, a region of Europe that overlies a part of Belgium.[SIZE=2][[/SIZE][SIZE=2]3[/SIZE][SIZE=2]][/SIZE] The poem was written by Canadian physician and Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae on 3 May 1915 after witnessing the death of his friend, a fellow soldier, the day before. The poem was first published on 8 December 1915 in the London-based magazine Punch.
In 1918, Moina Michael, who had taken leave from her professorship at the University of Georgia to be a volunteer worker for the American YWCA, was inspired by the poem and published a poem of her own called "We Shall Keep the Faith".[SIZE=2][[/SIZE][SIZE=2]4[/SIZE][SIZE=2]][/SIZE] In tribute to McCrae's poem, she vowed to always wear a red rememberance poppy as a symbol of remembrance for those who fought and helped in the war.[SIZE=2][[/SIZE][SIZE=2]3[/SIZE][SIZE=2]][/SIZE] At a November 1918 YWCA Overseas War Secretaries' conference, she appeared with a silk poppy pinned to her coat and distributed 25 more to those attending. She then campaigned to have the poppy adopted as a national symbol of remembrance. At a conference in 1920, the National American Legion adopted it as their official symbol of remembrance.[SIZE=2][[/SIZE][SIZE=2]3[/SIZE][SIZE=2]][/SIZE] At this conference, French-woman Anna E. Guérin was inspired to introduce the artificial poppies commonly used today. In 1921 she sent her poppy sellers to London, where they were adopted by Field Marshal Douglas Haig, a founder of the Royal British Legion. It was also adopted by veterans' groups in Canada, Australia and New Zealand.[SIZE=2][[/SIZE][SIZE=2]3[/SIZE][SIZE=2]][/SIZE]
I think people like McClean and the Poppy fascists need to understand what the Poppy means. My Great Grandfather and Grandfather fought in the British Army in WW1 and WW2 so I'm proud to wear one. They fought for the peoples freedom so they could live in a democratic society. Now people have the choice to wear what they want or not.
This is the reason why I have a problem with McClean. It's his spin on the poppy.
To me its more about where the money goes and who benefits.
if you were living in Canada, then i wouldn't have any problem with people wearing the poppy.
But for me, Irish over here who wear it, more often than not feel the need to fit in. YOu wouldn't see the lads down on the sites wearing them.
I politely declined the smile and asking for a donation down where i work in Canary wharf, they swarm like flies. That's not to say I don't appreciate what those in WW1 or WW2 did.
I can understand the whole British Legion thing but over the years the meaning has got lost. Just look at groups like Britain First and how they've turned it into a far right British symbol. It's quite sad really.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I lived in the Glasgow for 4 years, Belfast for 3 and Derry for 1 and traveled the length and breadth of the UK for work and never once wore a poppy, and never ever really felt like I was expected to. Through out this time my boss was a retired Colonel form the British Army and he never mentioned it either so to me it seems that the whole you have to wear a poppy or else guff seems to me to be a more modern thing.
McClean isn't preventing you or anyone else from using the symbol as a means of commemoration, so I don't really get your problem, especially as you appear to acknowledge the democratic choice involved. He's not trying to discourage anyone from doing something they want to do. If you're proud to wear one, that's great; good luck to you. For James, however, wearing one would be the source of considerable cultural discomfort, not because he has some intention to belittle your ancestors. Symbols have different meanings and connotations for different people. McClean didn't concoct the social phenomenon we know as "poppy fascism", since Jon Snow popularised the term. It's also undeniable that the state/government has militarised and fetishised the symbol. At last year's Tower of London memorial, David Cameron explicitly connected it with modern conflicts in which British forces were/are involved. That obviously can be problematic for northern nationalists for numerous reasons relating to the British army's actions in the north, including: the killing of innocent civilians, internment without trial, military torture, collusion and general intimidation of the nationalist community. For what it's worth, the poppy is also used to remember loyalist paramilitaries in the north.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
You suggest that James is in need of an education. I find that rather patronising and wrote a piece specifically on that suggestion here: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com...episode-three/
It may be of interest. Do you object to those who organise the white poppy commemoration on the basis that they're also "putting a negative spin" on the red one? That's not really what they're doing though. They're reacting to its hijacking.
Shouldn't this line be the exact reason you don't have a problem with McClean?Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
I've problem with people taking a symbol like the poppy and putting their own beliefs and views on it. Things like 'blood stained poppy' and 'proud to be British? - wear a poppy!' annoy me as it's not about original meaning of the poppy.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_denilson
It's a symbol. People putting their own beliefs and views on it is sort of the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Read what I said. The mean and reason behind the poppy. You are linking all the atrocities carried out to the poppy. I my opinion that's wrong. I believe in the original mean of the poppy. The poppy became to emblem of The Royal British Legion. The funds raised go to ex-service personnel and their families. NOT to the British Army. Also it's not a symbol of war, imperialism or British nationalism as you put it. Even the RBL say this. McClean doesn't have to wear one if he doesn't want to but people have the right to question his motives and views. As far as I know, no one at Sunderland, Wigan, WBA or the FA have forced him to wear one.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
You go on like 'James' is some kind of victim and is being bullied. But here's the thing, you connect all those atrocities to the poppy as well British nationalism then you must see it from the other way. McClean likes to post pro-Republican songs by The Wolftones about the IRA on Twitter or wearing an Easter Lilly which like the poppy has been taken over by Republicans and has been used by groups like the PIRA and CIRA. Not to mention his 6th form protest against GSTQ and their flag. Surely you must understand how that can come across to British people?
As I said, I don't mind if he doesn't wear a poppy I just don't agree with his reasons and I think he's got it wrong. I've no problem with the white poppy or the purple one. I understand the reasons behind them.
That's like saying it's ok for ISIS to go around killing the infidels because that's the beliefs and views of the Qu'ran and Islam!Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin