It's not even that, it's our citizenship laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
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It's not even that, it's our citizenship laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Fair play. Having avoided the subject somehow for so long I think I am happy with Martin's words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Yeah, I think he's done okay too. He has to play the game from both sides to a certain degree to be fair to him. There's a bit more here - https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-36683690.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin O'Neill
I think he is clear in that he has played for NI, manages Ireland and thinks the choice is the player's. I think that has to be respected. I don't think the bile spouted by Michael carries much respect towards the options afforded to the players and the subsequent choices made. And that stands for prospective and future cases too.
Really surprised that Michael O'Neill said these things.
Happy with Martin's comments. He's matter of fact but slightly bullish as well, which he needs to be.
Also, the Alex Bruce point is a good one. The only player to switch from one to the other at senior level was him.
On reflection I think Michael O'Neill has crossed a line here. He has accused Martin and the FAI of sectarianism without a shred of evidence to support that claim. In fact he did just the opposite when he gave the example of Paddy McNair who was approached despite him being protestant.
The fact that only Catholics have declared for us is not evidence of sectarian recruitment on the part of the FAI. It is evidence that if presented with the opportunity Catholics in the north have a preference for the republic that is not shared by their protestant peers.
Michael O'Neill has no idea which of his potential players were approached by the FAI. He has no idea which of the players who declared for us did so after reaching out to the FAI on their own initiative. I would both expect and assume that the FAI don't give a damn which school you went to. Either Michael O'Neill has evidence to the contrary or he owes Martin an apology.
Jack still has international options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
He has not yet been tied to the cause of England, he has yet to be capped for them at a competitive level, until that point has been passed he can (in theory) reignite his Irish intl ambitions..
He can't play for us again. He used his one switch to switch to England and represented their under 21s. Door shut. Done.
It has to be a competitive game. The door is still open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
It is not a switch until he has been capped at a competitive level.
Another one we lost to England, played in the catalonian Cup final recently.
Thats a common misconception, but its not correct. A player can only switch association once.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Marcus McGuane, another one we lost, has made his debut for Barcelona: https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2018...s-barca-debut/
Callum Robinson has declared, good player
How many runs did he get ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
'I'm available' - Preston star Callum Robinson declares for Ireland http://the42.ie/3893676
McGuane is a disappointing one. From what I can glean, McGuane originally went by the name of is Ghanaian father. He changed it to his mother's name. His mother's parents are from Laois and Cork. In fact, he had a tweet up about his grandmother once and I reckon it was his maternal grandmother. Disappointing she couldn't keep him at bay for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
This is very good news, another option in an area where we are a little short, Callum can play as a winger or up front. The Preston connection also helps and must be seen as a positive influence. Hope MON adds him to the squad for Turkey.
One thing I find interesting is how this declaration has been made. The 42 are carrying it as an exclusive. That would lead me to believe there has been an intermediary between the 42 and the player e.g. an Irish Preston teammate or his agent. Secondly, the timing of it to co-incide with the squad announcement (first thing in the morning directly afterwards) all seems very deliberate.
Not that it's a big issue. I just think it's very obviously orchestrated and what about it.
I'm not sure we lost him as such. He came out of nowhere and played in the euros 17 after not been involved in any qualifiers and was a year underage. thea few months later he switches to brits 17s and played in the euros 17s for them. To me it seemed we kinda borrowed him for a tournament where Doyle Hayes from Villa was out injured and he was always going back. Looked a lovely player thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
This has already been discussed in another thread and the question has been concluded to an absolute certainty.
A player is only recognised as 'switched' when he/she is capped in a competitive game at any level by the new association.
FIFA is about the only sporting association to have this, other sport associations generally recognise the player as being switched when they give the permission for the switch.
Thats not how i read it to be honestQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
18 Change of Association
1. If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for
several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is
eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality
Good piece. Ewan MacKenna always makes a lot of sense, although I think he might have had a read of the piece I put together before he penned his own. He wrote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
""We could get into the two-faced nature of it all....
Or how FIFA, in 2007, even tried to placate the IFA with a special offer allowing them to select those who weren't British nationals but came from Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, only for them to refuse. Of how Gerry Armstrong was brought in by the IFA to identify players who were 'at risk' of switching, meaning something obvious and dangerous.
These were two paragraphs I'd added to mine the other day:
"It is worth remembering that when FIFA did actually make the extraordinary gesture of offering the IFA special treatment in respect of their complaints over the matter of player eligibility back in November of 2007, the IFA rejected the proposal, even though the FAI were prepared to accept it.
The exceptional proposal would have allowed the IFA to select Irish nationals born south of the border who were not British citizens and who had no legal connection to the territory of the IFA. It would have enabled, for example, the association to select individuals from the Ulster-Scots community in the southern border counties of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan. Many people from this community culturally identify with the Northern Ireland statelet and its football team despite their birth and upbringing on the southern side of the border. Willie Hay, Basil McCrea, Maurice Devenney and Charley McAdam are just a few examples of public figures from this community."
And I'd added this tweet to an update:
In fairness, I ripped off his WordPress template, so I'll let it slide this time. :p
Has it? On what basis? I thought we were always a bit unsure on this one. Even Yann wasn't totally sure when I asked him. First time, he said he thought that the first competitive cap after a request effected or consummated the switch:Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
On a later occasion, his view had changed and he said he felt the request being granted was the conclusive element:Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
As it happens, Michael O'Neill appeared to think this too judging by his comments earlier in the week where he claimed Daniel Devine can't play for NI again since he "signed an international transfer" to the FAI, even though he hasn't played for the FAI. O'Neill claimed Devine would have been in his Euros squad otherwise, so it sounds like he'd looked into having the switch voided or reversed and was possibly told it wasn't possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I'm pretty sure there was a quote as well from a story posted on the forum around the time Grealish was waiting for his request to switch to the FA to be approved where an FAI official said that Grealish would be lost for good as soon as the request was granted. I can't quite put my finger on it right though. Maybe someone else can help?
I did find this RTÉ story whilst I was looking for it though: https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2015...l-on-complete/
It states:
"With no competitive internationals between now and next year’s Euros in France, Grealish won’t technically be tied to England at senior international level before the competition starts.
This means he could still feature for Ireland, though this seems a long-shot given his recent decision."
That conforms with your understanding, although, as we know only too well, we can't always rely on the mainstream media when it comes to seeking clarity on eligibility matters.
I thought it had been put to bed, I mean it was proven beyond doubt. Just how much more do you want? 101% proof? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Cap Tied
"In the event where a player is eligible to play for multiple nations, he is only 'cap-tied' to a nation after playing for its senior team in an official competition, or having played in an official competition at youth level and later submitting a request to change national association with*FIFA."Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
When was it proven beyond doubt? Just 100 per cent proof will suffice. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I'd been searching for some info on Dominic Ball (who represented the IFA at youth level 24 times before switching to the English FA without a hint of outrage or outcry from NI quarters), but came across this article from 2015: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/s...-31504042.html
It says the following in respect of another IFA youth player Cameron McGeehan:
"Jim Magilton has warned any player who is considering turning his back on Northern Ireland to be careful not to plunge themselves into the international wilderness.
The Irish FA has invoked the Fifa five-day rule to ban Cameron McGeehan from playing for Luton Town today after he knocked back a call up to Magilton's under-21 squad for today's opening European Championship qualifier.
It is believed that the 20-year-old wants to take his chances with England, similar to Dominic Ball, who has won under-19 and under-20 caps for England, despite playing for Northern Ireland at every level bar full international."
The IFA really do seem to get a thrill out of vindictive attempts to stifle the aspirations of players who might once have played for them before changing their minds. I wonder how often that rule is invoked by associations generally.
For what it's worth, Jim Magilton also said the following about the switch process:
"There is no ambiguity. Once a player makes the decision to switch that's it, there is no going back. It's clear in the FIFA rules."
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I thought my last post cleared this up
"having played in an official competition at youth level and later submitting a request to change national association with*FIFA."
Once Jack Grealish applied and changed association, he was gone for us for life
That's just from a Wikipedia article though. Anyone can edit that. Nevertheless, if I had make a call one way or the other on what I thought most likely effected a switch or made it permanent, I would tend to concur with your view that it is the formal granting of the request rather than the first competitive cap for the new association. This interpretation would appear to be in accordance with a literal reading of article 8 and it would also appear to be supported by the opinion of FAI and IFA officials. I can only guess, for example, that Michael O'Neill looked into reversing Daniel Devine's switch but was informed it wouldn't be possible. That may not be the case, of course, but it would just appear likely to me based on his words:Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
"Daniel Devine of Partick Thistle is a West Belfast boy and would have gone to Euros [2016] with us. Only he can't play for Northern Ireland as he’s signed an international transfer.’"
Isn't geysir saying that it has been proven that it is the first cap for the new association that makes the switch permanent, however?
IFA say Michael O’Neill was speaking 'in a personal capacity'
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...ty-467959.html
From a couple of days ago. You got to laugh at Britain's comments, especially his "trying to find a positive way" justification of Michael O'Neill's comments.
Jack has not yet been capped yet at competitive level for England. He has to cross the white line, either in the starting line up or as a sub in a competitive game at any age level before he's recognised as having used up his once in a lifetime choice. The toulon toournament does not count as competitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Jack can cancel his request to change from the FAI to FA.
He has played in U21 Championship qualifier.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
And??Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Yes, and there are numerous examples. Even just use plain common sense.Quote:
Isn't geysir saying that it has been proven that it is the first cap for the new association that makes the switch permanent, however?
Why do you think there is all the rumpus about capping a player in a senior competitive game in order to get a player tied.
That's the gilded criteria.
A dual national has 2 choices.
the first choice is who to play for and the second choice is should he chose to switch over to the other nationality.
Being eligible to play for a country does not mean a dual national player has used up a choice .
He has to be capped at underage competitive level in order for to be recognised as using up his first choice.
We were Jack's first choice. He is not regarded by FIFA as using his onetime right to change association until that time he is capped by England at any competitive level.
One eg
Rafinha played for Spain, switched to Brazil, but still eligible to declare for France
Which game was that? Afaics he hasn't been capped at competitive level.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_denilson
I'm I missing something here, I might be wrong but Jack is clearly no longer able to play for us, regardless of his under age cap for EnglandQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
"If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for
several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is
eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality"
and your own post
"In the event where a player is eligible to play for multiple nations, he is only 'cap-tied' to a nation after playing for its senior team in an official competition, or having played in an official competition at youth level and later submitting a request to change national association with*FIFA."
The question is when exactly a player's change of associations becomes 'final' or 'irreversible'.
Is it at the moment that FIFA stamp the word APPROVED in big red letters on his Change of Association application form? In which case, a player is tied to his new association from that moment on, even if he is never selected for any future game, friendly or competitive.
Or is it the moment that he actually takes the field in a competitive game for his new association? And up to that point, does the request to change association remain provisional, and could it be withdrawn, or even replaced by a new application for another association?
Grealish played in the Toulon tournament after his change of associations, but Idon't think that is classified by FIFA as a competitive game.
Michael O'Neill issued a statement today j https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/s...-36695783.html
Posted it earlier:Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
https://foot.ie/threads/119079-Poten...=1#post1954072
https://www.uefa.com/under21/season=...325/index.html
The Toulon tournament is most definitely not a FIFA competitive tournament.
Wiki is indeed a wonderful source :)