Printable View
You're even disputing facts now. Andrews started 8 out of 15 games for West Brom (1 out of the last 5) and Green played RB and RM for Derby. Trying to justify Green coming on is hilarious. I'm not sure I've seen anyone attempt it, even those who don't rate Gibson and vehemently disagree with his stance but I've seen it all now.
You're right, I was wrong about Andrews. Green was playing midfield for Derby - if he played RB it was as emergency cover. I'm not justifying bringing Green on, I'm just saying the logic was fairly clear. We were being completely overrun and Green is quick and energetic, if limited, as he showed against Sweden.
Charlie. You're approaching ridiculous...
After returning from injury Green started 28 games for Derby. 10 at RB and 18 at RM so he didn't even play CM at all that season bar 1 sub appearance for Derby and 2 for Ireland. Any way you spin it and whatever the circumstances, deciding to play Green in CM ahead of Gibson is the opposite of logic.
Trap, notoriously capricious and often illogical. It's pretty difficult to determine a pecking order with the likes of Gibson, Green, McCarthy, Hoolahan at some point last summer based on a guy who appears to pick his starting strikers (barring Robbie) out of a hat.
Fraid I don't have any truck with Darron defenders. Being hard done by is having your reputation tarnished through mangled English and misunderstanding (Long, Wilson, McCarthy) not throwing an international career risking strop because you didn't get five minutes at the end of a Spain thrashing.
Worth bearing in mind the current manager made Gibson a key squad figure at a time when most Irish fans thought he was a joke.
The DJ printed a quote from a source about Darron's feelings after the Euros. There was nothing sensational or revealing in the quote, most everybody knew that Gibson was 'unhappy'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Who wasn't unhappy btw?
Since then he has gone into exile, Trap has called him into the squad a number of times. Trap is stubborn about a lot of things but on this matter he has been prepared to let bygones be gone, just like he has after McClean and others had their tantrums.
What would Gibson have offered in those final ten minutes?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Is there some kind of point or question in here somewhere? Why have you quoted me?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Normally one quotes a post or part of a post, when one is replying to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
You appeared to suggest there was something of significance to the 'source close to Darron' quote from the Derry Journal after the Euros, afair there isn't anything of significance.
But if you can provide a link, I'll be happy to reconsider.
Really. Well if that's the case then you would know that my post was in response to Charlie Darwin saying, sarcastically perhaps that ""A source" seems to know what he's thinking." I haven't added any significance at all to it. It is what it is.
I wasn't being sarcastic. I had rather assumed that "a source" was either Darron or his agent, as they usually are in these cases.
Fair enough. Either way I was simply clarifying where that quoted source came from.
Then what is it? AFAIR, it was a nothing quote after the Euros from a source close to Darron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
According to the Derry Journal, a source close to Gibson said that while the midfielder enjoyed playing for his country, he was uncertain of his place in the squad.
“It’s not as if the team was winning games," the source told the Derry Journal. "He felt he could contribute but the shame was, he didn’t get a chance.
“Right now, Darron doesn’t know where he stands with [Giovanni] Trapattoni. He loves playing for Ireland but the manager doesn’t seem to believe in him.
Yes, I posted that earlier. What is your problem?
Ball retention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Who would he have passed it in order to retain the ball, James McClean?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
If you're being completely overrun what will calm things down better? Someone who can receive the ball and find a pass or a headless chicken with the touch of a rapist?
Neither?
No. Darron Gibson.
I just like to make sure of the distinction, between a quote that a journalist gives some credence to and anonymous silly nonsense from a 'friend of a friend' source about how Trap almost raped Gibson, humiliated him and disrespected him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
And to think Gibson was a Man U player under Ferguson, once upon a time:)
Fwiw, Trap's comments about Gibson needing to work harder to get his place on the Man U team (which Gibson had a hissy fit about) were spot on and most every Man U fan thought so.
Right now, I don't put much value on Gibson's ability to take 'advice' in the spirit it was given. I can accept he has fallen out beyond repair with Trap. But on his falling out, I have zero sympathy with his decision and I don't hold Trap at all responsible for Gibson being in exile. In fact, Trap has done more that other managers would do by asking him again and again to reconsider his exile.
I certainly wanted to see Gibson start in the Euros after seeing him in the friendlies but it's an international funeral of his own making now.
You still haven't answered the question of where he is going to find this pass you speak of.
Because its the most ridiculous question ever posed on a message board. Who does Hoolohan pass to Charlie?
i would say wes hoolohan.darron isnt one for relief. intereting at least there
ia some reasoning why he was pickee at rm against sweden
Judging by the clip that was posted earlier, he passes to the centre half. But that's sort of the point I'm making - Hoolahan is in the team now but he will have players like Coleman, Wilson and McCarthy to pass to. I have defended Ward in the past, but if you'd thrown Hoolahan into the team against Spain he'd have had fewer options to pass to. I'm 100% not defending Trap here - he made the wrong decisions on who to start and played players who were less able to pass the ball and make angles - but once he selected those players he'd have been putting Gibson into a lose-lose situation if he introduced him. I agree the Spain debacle was a result of his poor selection choices, but once he had picked those players, introducing Gibson would have had little to no effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
To be fair RMK or similar, at the height of their powers would have made feck all difference v.that Spanish team...
That shouldn't absolve Trap of responsibility. I think we'd have fared better if Gibson had started in a balanced midfield. My point is that with ten minutes to go and the proverbial horse bolted, he was of no more use than Paul Green.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Wouldn't that be irrelevant though if the real reason Trap chose Green over Gibson was to prove a petty point to Gibson over actually making a genuine utility call? Assuming what Irwin/the source is/are claiming is true, that is...
Was Gibson quoted as being "upset" - slightly different from being "unhappy" - after the Euros, or am I mistaken? If so, wouldn't upset be a slightly unusual response for a player who hadn't actually played in any of our defeats?
I am critical of Trap in a lot of ways, but I truly believe he doesn't overlook players for petty reasons. He may be stubborn when pushed by the media, but I really don't think there was any media campaign for Gibson to play in the Euros. And, like Geysir has said, Trap has called up Gibson since in spite of his refusal to join up. A man who holds a grudge would have cut him loose on the first refusal. McClean openly criticised Trap's selections and still got picked.
It would appear that the reasons for Gibson getting 'upset' enough to go into international exile, are being revised and embellished via rumours in a similar way to when rumours were spread about the way Stephen Ireland was supposedly treated 'roughly' by squad members.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I think having a midfielder willing to take the ball in any circumstances sets the whole tone for everyone in the team. It was just so blatantly obvious at Wembley that Whelan's lack of composure under even very little pressure sent the jitters throughout the whole team. Much is written here about lack of technique, kick and rush culture etc etc but I think we're better than that and just one player like Hoolahan or Gibson, but ideally two, will make everyone else more composed. It follows then that we would be less inclined to cede all initiative and seek to play without the ball in circumstances like the Austria game's last 20 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Ya stutts I pointed out that moment when Whelan jumped on the ground to get to the ball to make the pass back to O'Shea in the first half against England. We had played some nice short, fast passes in tight spaces, then somehow Whelan found himself piggy in the middle, and under a little bit of pressure nearly gave the ball away, instead of keeping the short fast passing game going, simply because he isn't able play that kind of game.
These reasons have been rumoured since last June. Gibson apparently confronted Trap after the Spain game (and had to be convinced to remain with the squad, apparently by Alan Kelly and John O'Shea) and Trap at some stage made a disparaging reference to his weight. Noone is revising anything here.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
"Revisionism" is often a term used disparagingly, but if new facts come to light, surely it is only logical to revise one's view accordingly. That's a different form of revision from re-interpreting, or twisting, what we already know.
Of course, that would be to assume that what Irwin is saying is true. I only became aware that Trap may have humiliated Gibson in front of the squad and poked fun at his "weight" within the past few days. It may or may not be true. If it is true, it's poor form from Trap and perhaps justifies a greater level of sympathy for Gibson's stance. Not that it would necessarily mean that Gibson has been mature about matters after all and all along, but it would perhaps help us better understand his reasoning and difficulty with pulling on the jersey. I'd find it difficult to respect and follow the instructions of someone who not only I felt didn't respect me in return, but who had actually insulted me in front of my peers. I'd like to think I'd be able to overlook it in order to play for my country, but then I'm not Darron Gibson nor have I been insulted by Trap.
http://www.ybig.ie/forum/darron-gibs...1.html#1005401
Posted by the friend of a friend in August.
"Gibby went to the euros off the back of a great run for everton. No doubt he was hopeful of nicking one of the midfield spots or at the very least getting gametime as a midfield replacement as Paul green was the only other contender and he was a championship player with no club who wasn't in the original squad.
In the build up to the tournament gibby make a few comments on the training pitch about the amount of running they are doing and the outdated training methods. For the duration he is then used as a prop in training and ignored by trap and it becomes clear before a ball is kicked that he is not in traps plans
The team dissappointed v croatia and Glenn whelan is brutal but he gets no game time. We are annialated by Spain and our midfield is run of its feet. Trap takes whelan off and brings on a player who has no club and has never played in the top flight of English football. gibby has words with trap in front of squad and is told he is fat
After being battered in 2 games, trap doesn't change the team and sends whelan out again against Italy. Again whelan is terrible but does trap even give Gibson 15 minutes to even acknowledge that he has been in the training camp for 5 weeks, no he doesn't. Again Gibson has words with trap after the Italy game.
Used like a sparring partner in training, never considered for selection, ignored by the manager, told he is fat, has Paul green brought on instead of him, whelan unjustifiably plays in Italy game, departs after 4 weeks with no game time. Yet he was playing regularly for a top 8 EPL team and came into the tournament in good form. He had every right to be ****ed off
This is why I said I was surprised when he was called up for Serbia and that he didn't want to play for trap but wouldn't turn his back on his country"
Paul Rowan 24th of June, 2012:
".....Last week we felt that Trapattoni deserved the benefit of the doubt, but since then the reservations have grown stronger. Neither Ireland's fans, nor players who broke ranks during that time, only the manager sought to wash his hands of responsibility for Ireland matching the worst ever showing of any team at the Euros and highlighted further failures of the players instead.
Having said that the players were playing with 'fear' and the 'jersey was too heavy' he then identified a lack of leadership and after the Italy game was saying; "if I tell the truth it would seem that I want to humiliate people". Not a single Irish player managed to raise his game for the Euros and some of them underperformed, which was the most disappointing aspect for those who didn't lose sight of the fact that Ireland were in an extremely tough group and were likely to lose all three matches.
Trapattoni also had an extremely poor tournament and his efforts to preserve his own reputation at the expense of others has lowered him in the eyes of the players. Richard Dunne is believed to have been unhappy with the way the campaign was run and had exchanges after the Italy game with Trapattoni. Senior players advised him to go holiday with his family rather than make any rash decisions about his Ireland future. There was unhappiness about the hotel in the middle of the resort town of Sopot - revelling Irish fans actually kept some of the players awake the night before the Spain game - but the players didn't want to be seen to be whingeing. However, what made them most unhappy was the long camp and the fact that they considered themselves overworked after a long season.
Darron Gibson, form instance, reported to Dublin two days after he played the last Premier League game of the season for Everton on May 13. It's belived he asked Trapattoni if he could report the following Sunday along with the rest of the Premier League players - for one thing he had been invited along with Robbie Keane and others to Glenn Whelan's wedding on the Saturday - but was told in no uncertain terms to show up as instructed. Gibson didn't see a moment of action in the Euros and asked the manager the night of the Spain game if he had a problem with him.
The Italy game in Poznan has thrown up a new problem which will focus plenty of attention on Gibson. Some commentators along with Trapattoni pointed up an improvement in the performance level, but whatever it was escaped this particular observer. The mistakes at the back have been a standout feature, but even more glaring has been Ireland's lack of any goalscoring threat in all three games.
UEFA statistics credit Ireland with two shots on target against Italy, but it's difficult to remember either and Keith Andrew's petulant blasting of the ball into the crowd after he had been dismissed was one of the times Ireland got closest to scoring. He is automatically banned for Ireland's opening World Cup qualifying game against Kazakhstan in September but UEFA will probably be minded to put a few more on top of that after reading the referee's report. Gibson will be needed more than ever, but is believed to be considering his future under Trapattoni. The player himself is maintaining an unhappy silence. "I have nothing to say about that," he remarked when asked about his international future.
Important people continue to back Trapattoni in his dealings with Gibson and everybody else. Denis O'Brien, who pays half Trapattoni's wages, says he is delighted with his investment, scotching any thoughts that he might consider a different manager. The FAI too won't get rid of Trapattoni, unless the crowd in Dublin turns on the manager a it did in the case of Mick McCarthy and Steve Staunton. In that case, he would probably go quite quickly, so a good start to the qualifying campaign is vital if Trapattoni is to stay on board."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
I have even less sympathy for him now, if that's true. Something I didn't realise was possible.
I'd have picked Andrews ahead of Gibson last summer. Andrews had done well at WBA, he'd played 14 games in half a season there which, even though he missed a few matches at the end of the season, is enough to be considered a first team player - pro rata it and you're looking at 30 odd games out of 38. Gibson had played 12 premier league games in the season before Euro2012, one for Man Utd, 11 for Everton, so Andrews (with 14) had actually been involved in more PL games than Gibson, and that ingores the 20 Championship games Andrews played for Ipswich at the start of 2011-12 season. In those 14 PL games he'd scored 2 goals and at Ipswich he'd scored 9 in 20 - eleven league goals for a midfielder in one season is a good return (even if some of them were against Championship sides), contrast that with Gibson who scored 1 goal in 2011-12 (he's actually only scored 2 in the last 4 or so years).
Andrew's had been a key part of the team that got Ireland to the Euros (remember he scored the first goal in Tallinn, which came when it was still 11 vs 11) so the onus was on other players to prove they were more worthy of a place in the starting 11 than him. I don't think Gibson did that, and the decision to pick Andrews was justified as he was probably our best player at the Euros (although there wasn't a lot of competition) and didn't he get the FAI player of the year award last year?
I would probably have picked Gibson ahead of Whelan, especially after the Croatia game when it seemed obvious that Whelan's legs had gone. But I still think Gibson has handled this very badly, sometimes managers don't pick what appear to be the best players for a variety of reasons (team continuity, formation reasons, players playing more regularly at clubs, perhaps even personal preference), but it probably would have been better to stay in the squad and wait for things to develop. Last summer Andrews was over 30 and Whelan was nearing 30, it was obvious that there would be retirements and if Gibson had kept his council he would almost certainly be in with a great chance of starting most games for Ireland. As it is he got into a strop and exiled himself in a seemingly very puerile way. He's a good player, and I'd be happy to see him back in the national team set-up but only if his attitude improves. If he still thinks he has a devine right to start every match then I'd rather stick with other players. The whole thing smacks of ideas above his station, he's a player not a memeber of the coaching team. Even then he's Darron Gibson - this isn't the second coming of Redondo or Zidane, he might be better than some of our other midfielders but it's not like he's world class and it's a totally clear cut decision.
Nowhere has he given any indication that this is the case. In fact he was even bigging up Whelan and Andrews after the euros saying how they deserved to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
I can understand Gibson's grievance.
Under Mick McCarthy I always got the impression that the players, no matter who they were, wanted to perform for Mick and figured they had a shot once they worked hard (even if they didn't) but if you're away on a 5 week camp and it's obvious you are there for no good reason no matter how well you are performing that has got to be very very frustrating.
A good man-manager, even if he had no intention of playing Gibson in the Euros, would be able to deal with this and keep the player onside for the future. All players have egos, they have to be confident in themselves and their abilities.
A good manager will build a team mentality from a group of individuals and keep them together.
Trapattoni has not really managed this in my opinion and is way too backward in changing things that clearly do not work (4-4-2, Glenn Whelan etc.)
For example, Hoolahan was class against Georgia, the creative cool-headed midfielder that buys us the time on the ball we so desperately need.
He will not start against the Faroes
This has been brought up before but Andrews started 8 games for West Brom, and only started 1 out of the last 5. He was a first team player but not exactly first choice. Now Andrews did do pretty well at the euros and I think he should have been starting with Gibson.
Gibson was injured. He has started every game for Everton bar 1 game rested and 2-3 games when coming back from injury. Gibson has scored 12 goals in his 100 appearances for Man Utd and Everton over the last 5 seasons. Not prolific but those are the real numbers.