Stephen Kenny

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

It really is something to see two and a half years of failure being whitewashed based on us apparently being set up correctly for one game - and we lost the game! And I don't even know that we were set up to maximise our chances of a result in the game. It's incredible stuff to read.

A few issues with that...

Firstly, we already knew that we could be set up reasonably well against stronger opposition. We saw that against Portugal in the last group (and we actually got a result against Portugal). So there's nothing new there, losing this time is a step back if anything. It's the games against teams our level and weaker teams that have been the persistent issue, so a borderline commendable performance against France doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

Secondly, France never beat anyone anyways decent away from home by more than a goal or two in qualifiers anyway so the result isn't particularly impressive. It was our first home loss in the Euros qualifiers in a long time. It was also a game we badly needed a result from in the context of the group. We should never be happy with a defeat, but in particular we should never be happy with a home defeat. It just shows how low the bar is now being set that many are happy with that result, but the only team that actually had reason to be happy was France.

And thirdly, were we actually that well set up? Out of possession we were nice and compact at the back alright. But what was the game plan on the ball? Pass it around a bit? It looks nice I suppose but we didn't create much from general play. As usual our one big chance came from a header from a corner right at the end. Which seems to be the story of Kenny's time in charge. So if we're relying on that for a goal anyway, why are we bothering tapping it around at the back? As usual we didn't score from that approach, but we did concede from it. It would have made more sense to be a bit more direct and try and get more set pieces, as that was likely to be the only way we would have scored anyway. And it would have reduced the likelihood of us gifting them the chance for the goal.

In all honesty how anyone could think that France game was something worth whitewashing everything that has gone before over is beyond my comprehension. People just seem to be searching for anything at all they can find to defend the management with, even when there's absolutely nothing new there.

Meanwhile a must win game against Greece has been reduced to "a draw would be good", the campaign which Kenny was finally to be judged on results has been reduced to "finishing third would be good" and Kenny's disastrous management of the Nations League campaign and the subsequent impact of that on our group seeding and our playoff prospects has been wilfully forgotten about.

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On the bit in bold, we were extremely pragmatic and balanced. He played Ogbene for that exact reason and there were many balls that were sent down the line and into the channels for Ogbene to challenge for. Which he did. Winning a lot of free-kicks, corners, throw-ins and relieving pressure on us. It was a job well done all round (except maybe some of the set-pieces themselves).

On the last bit. A draw keeps us alive and, in any event, it would be a fairly decent result (same level as us, away, heat, hostility). Would like to see the performance to try and get the 3 points, obviously, and have us set up to maximize the chances of that. It is one that i am positive he will be looking at as a good chance to take 3 points. Either way, I am sure he'll get the full campaign (potentially if we get into the playoffs too) and then the decision can be made on the whole which makes more sense than trying to write his obituary now.

There was no impact on our seedings - they were unchanged.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think Austria and Wales in 2017 are about our only away wins of note in the last dozen years

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Best competitive away wins since Scotland in 1987. At the time that was our best away win ever in qualifying. So those are our three best away wins in our whole history.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Good post, though I don't agree Greece away is a must-win. I think Austria and Wales in 2017 are about our only away wins of note in the last dozen years; to suggest Greece is a must-win with a poorer squad is harsh. Greece at home could well be described as a must-win though.

And a Norway/Scotland-type defeat in Greece would be a poor result.

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I'd guess it means 'must-win' in terms of qualification, not in terms of identifying consistent signs of progress.

And in that sense it's probably fair - if we are to have any chanceof qualifying considering our likely points haul against the combined French and Dutch, then the matches against Greece would be 6 points we 'must' collect.

For me, in terms of identifying signs of progress, it's more a question of whether it's a 'should-win'.

As in, when looking at both squads, is this a game we should be winning or not? Gibraltar home and away are obviously 'should-win' (or 'should-win-easily') matches. Greece (away in particular) I'm not so sure about.

On a few occasions under Kenny we've probably had some better results than what we 'should' have had, bud we've had a good few that are worse too.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Best competitive away wins since Scotland in 1987. At the time that was our best away win ever in qualifying. So those are our three best away wins in our whole history.

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We were robbed of some very big away wins down the years. Seville in 92 was maybe the worst, but the 70s and 80s had a few belters. Wembley in 91 was down to poor finishing to be fair - the English I spoke to after the game all said to a man we were such a superior team - imagine if that team qualified we could have done so well in Sweden.

On Kenny, I think he doesn’t deserve criticism for the French game. He set us up really well and we were unlucky to lose against the second best team in the world. If we play like that for the rest of the campaign we have a chance of qualifying directly.

Being honest I despised Martin O’Neill’s football, even taking into account that his results on paper were good given the quality of players at his disposal. At least, we try to play football and given the talent coming through, that’s very welcome. He made out we couldn’t play ball, when teams like the North at least tried to. It was embarrassing to see minnows coming to Lansdowne Road and having the lions share of possession.

The players seem to like Kenny. Personally, I think he is awful with the media and I struggle to see any level of charisma there, but he must have something about him, because the players are giving their all.

I hope he’s a success but I feel he may fall between the cracks before we have a very decent team in about two years. He will have got a few campaigns so he can’t have any great complaints. A World Cup in Europe is exceptionally hard to qualify from (easier at least for the next one) but UEFA do give a few back doors to teams like us for the Euros. His legacy will be getting us back believing we should play football again and I’d be very happy if he stayed involved with player development. As I said, I hope he’s a great success and leads us to a few tournaments and does a great job, but that’s a gut feeling.

Some people seem to have a very simplistic mindset that if we don't win every game the manager should be sacked.

Well, given that the win rate of the current manager is a record low 28%, I don't think those people - whoever they may be - reside on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Some people seem to have a very simplistic mindset that if we don't win every game the manager should be sacked.

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I don't think it's as simple as "he has to win every game". Trapattoni took over in May 2008, and the football, while successful at times, was tough to watch - to say the least. The same applies to O'Neill's and McCarthy's reigns that followed. All three managers broadly followed the same gameplan of making us tough to score against while nicking the odd goal to win. It was almost 12 years since Trapattoni took over when Kenny was given the job (dear God!) and at the beginning of his reign, the fans understood that he needed time to wipe clean the tactics of the previous decade, and introduce new players and formations. That didn't happen straight away, and it was unpleasant at times, but the fanbase was still behind him because there was evidence of the changes that he was making in some of the play of the national side.

I believe that time he was afforded for those changes expired after the Armenia and Ukraine games last summer. The win against Scotland, and the performance away to Ukraine granted him an extension but the reactions of the crowd after the home games against Armenia and Norway tell their own story.

We have no god given right to win every game, no team does. However, the expectation was that, eventually, the team would be competitive against higher ranked opposition and win games against lower ranked teams. His record suggests that we are improving. His team doesn't lose by more than one goal, England apart, so we're always in with a chance of getting something right up until the very end - it took a world class save to deny us a point against France. But we lose by a goal a lot. And we've only really blown one decent team away under his reign. Despite the teams we're facing this year, the performance against France says we will be competitive. But so did the performances against Serbia and Portugal, which came right before we lost to Luxembourg and drew with Azerbaijan.

My own opinion is, and has been for a while, that he'll be manager at least until the end of this campaign. If we've qualified, or are in a play off, then he'll continue. If not, then his successor will reap the benefits of the players he's introduced.

So it's not as simple as "he has to win every game", it's more a case of "if he loses, then he's closer to the end of his time in charge"

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Well, given that the win rate of the current manager is a record low 28%, I don't think those people - whoever they may be - reside on this forum.

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The way people are going on, you'd swear that Kenny has had a good record as Ireland manager and anyone criticising his time in charge are some fringe lunatics. Not only is Kenny's win percentage so low, the calabre of teams we've played under him has been quite low. Of the 32 games, only 5 have been against top tier nations first teams and I'm including Serbia in that who some might question. He's picked up 2 points out of 15 against them.

Of the 9 wins we've had under Kenny. Only one was against a team at our level. The rest has been against teams below us and mostly way below us in whatever ranking system you like to use. Also, 5 of the 9 victories have been in friendlies. Given the opposition we've played, having lost 12 times in 32 games is really bad. These are some of the reasons why some want Kenny gone. It's not because our expectations are too high, it's not because we've got some grudge against Kenny, it's because he has completely under performed as Ireland manager. I actually can't think how it could have gone much worse.

So is it lunacy to want a better manager or maybe the lunatics are those who want Kenny to stay?

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

at the beginning of his reign, the fans understood that he needed time to wipe clean the tactics of the previous decade, and introduce new players and formations. That didn't happen straight away, and it was unpleasant at times, but the fanbase was still behind him because there was evidence of the changes that he was making in some of the play of the national side.

I believe that time he was afforded for those changes expired after the Armenia and Ukraine games last summer.

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That's exactly my feeling on it. I'm not sure if I posted it here ages back or if it was in a conversation with someone, but I've thought for a while that Kenny might wind up being remembered as what-his-name who laid the foundations for the successful manager.

Steve Staunton gave debuts to Stephen Ireland, Kevin Doyle, Joey O'Brien, Shane Long, Anthony Stokes, Joey Lapira, Darron Gibson, Stephen Hunt, Paul McShane, Stephen Kelly, Daryl Murphy, Andy Keogh and a load more, he was building for World Cup 2010 but didn't get the chance. Were people giving him credit for the building the foundations for nearly qualifying for the World Cup and qualifying for the Euros in 2012?

So you did some research and found a list of players to make it look like Staunton deserved similar praise to Kenny for giving debuts.... but you left Joey Lapria in this list, obviously not knowing the context of that and that it was far from a positive for Stan.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

So you did some research and found a list of players to make it look like Staunton deserved similar praise to Kenny for giving debuts.... but you left Joey Lapria in this list, obviously not knowing the context of that and that it was far from a positive for Stan.

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:D You're the most serious poster on this board! I threw him in for some light relief.

But should Stan have been given a go at 2010 qualification? Kenny has basically been granted the equivalent now.

Ya did in your hole!

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Ya did in your hole!

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Lighten up.

I've said before that Kenny and Staunton's reigns have been similar in a few ways. And both were far from great performers in front of the camera. If it was to end now, I think Kenny's time in charge will be remembered similarly to Staunton's. A few false dawn's but overall 2 poor managers who were out of their depth. Not their fault of course, should never have been appointed. That was down to Delaney.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I don't think it's as simple as "he has to win every game". Trapattoni took over in May 2008, and the football, while successful at times, was tough to watch - to say the least. The same applies to O'Neill's and McCarthy's reigns that followed. All three managers broadly followed the same gameplan of making us tough to score against while nicking the odd goal to win. It was 12 years since Trapattoni took over when Kenny was given the job (dear God!) and at the beginning of his reign, the fans understood that he needed time to wipe clean the tactics of the previous decade, and introduce new players and formations. That didn't happen straight away, and it was unpleasant at times, but the fanbase was still behind him because there was evidence of the changes that he was making in some of the play of the national side.

I believe that time he was afforded for those changes expired after the Armenia and Ukraine games last summer. The win against Scotland, and the performance away to Ukraine granted him an extension but the reactions of the crowd after the home games against Armenia and Norway tell their own story.

We have no god given right to win every game, no team does. However, the expectation was that, eventually, the team would be competitive against higher ranked opposition and win games against lower ranked teams. His record suggests that we are improving. His team doesn't lose by more than one goal, England apart, so we're always in with a chance of getting something right up until the very end - it took a world class save to deny us a point against France. But we lose by a goal a lot. And we've only really blown one decent team away under his reign. Despite the teams we're facing this year, the performance against France says we will be competitive. But so did the performances against Serbia and Portugal, which came right before we lost to Luxembourg and drew with Azerbaijan.

My own opinion is, and has been for a while, that he'll be manager at least until the end of this campaign. If we've qualified, or are in a play off, then he'll continue. If not, then his successor will reap the benefits of the players he's introduced.

So it's not as simple as "he has to win every game", it's more a case of "if he loses, then he's closer to the end of his time in charge"

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Yeah in fairness my comment was a bit of a throwaway line that was bit exaggerated. As I've said previously I just sick of every game being a referendum on him but he has brought it on himself.

The match going fans and players are still overwhelming behind him based on the vibe last week so he will see out the campaign at least

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

The match going fans and players are still overwhelming behind him based on the vibe last week so he will see out the campaign at least

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I don't know how, to be honest. From "You'll never beat the Irish" to "You most probably will beat the Irish, unless you're San Marino or Gibralter". I think it's a dangerously insidiuous attitude that's seeped in.

Also, any mention of Joe Lapira is welcome. He was great.

Finally, people laughing about Potter and Rodgers....neither of them need money and I think Ireland as we are right now is a very interesting project. I read today that Potter wants some time off. He could end up being just the man. Just saying. If Ferguson continues on his trajectory I think plenty of managers could look at us and say "I fancy a go at that". Added bonus there's very little pressure due to the diabolical record of the previous manager.

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Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

I don't know how, to be honest. From "You'll never beat the Irish" to "You most probably will beat the Irish, unless you're San Marino or Gibralter". I think it's a dangerously insidiuous attitude that's seeped in.

Also, any mention of Joe Lapira is welcome. He was great.

Finally, people laughing about Potter and Rodgers....neither of them need money and I think Ireland as we are right now is a very interesting project. I read today that Potter wants some time off. He could end up being just the man. Just saying. If Ferguson continues on his trajectory I think plenty of managers could look at us and say "I fancy a go at that". Added bonus there's very little pressure due to the diabolical record of the previous manager.

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On your 1st point about not knowing why the match going fans are still behind him, I would say that people forget how bad things were in the few years between Euro 2016 and Kenny taking over. It was horrible football where very weak teams were getting 65% possession against us in the Aviva. It seemed like we were just drifting with players like Ronan Curtis playing on a semi regular basis. Kennys tenure does coincide with the best generation of players coming through in quite a while so I think people are willing to give him more leeway than before so that these players can get up to speed with International football.

I agree that someone could look at it as a good project if Kenny was to get the sack eventually. I think the net should be cast far and wide to see what replacements would be available, but I also dont trust the FAI to not just pick the easy option of Allardyce, Tony Pulis, Roy Hodgeson or someother British has been. We dont have the money of the past to attract a Rogers or Potter, and with all the best will in the world of them saying its a project they might fancy the money would be so low that they would jump ship at the 1st hint of a club job becoming available.

Don't see people like Potter or Rodgers having any interest in the Irish job. Firstly, it takes quite a while to demonstrate that you're making significant progress (6 competitive wins on the trot could take a year rather than a month) and as well as that, I'm not sure how much international success (with a team in Ireland's league at least) is considered evidence that you can cut the mustard in the EPL (any more evidence that already exists about Potter and Rodgers).

potter will be the englands manager after euro 24.

He'd be England manager right now if he hadn't left Brighton

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

He'd be England manager right now if he hadn't left Brighton

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Maybe yeah, good point.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Don't see people like Potter or Rodgers having any interest in the Irish job. Firstly, it takes quite a while to demonstrate that you're making significant progress (6 competitive wins on the trot could take a year rather than a month) and as well as that, I'm not sure how much international success (with a team in Ireland's league at least) is considered evidence that you can cut the mustard in the EPL (any more evidence that already exists about Potter and Rodgers).

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Potter's already been offered (and declined) the Leicester job; he'll get another gig out of the FAI's price range. And he'll want that to rebuild his reputation. Rodgers will get more money than the FAI are offering too. Plus we can't really afford to sack Kenny, which we'd have to do.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Potter's already been offered (and declined) the Leicester job; he'll get another gig out of the FAI's price range. And he'll want that to rebuild his reputation. Rodgers will get more money than the FAI are offering too. Plus we can't really afford to sack Kenny, which we'd have to do.

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Oh I know they are both miles outside of what the FAI can afford, but even if more money were not an issue, I don't think it's a job that would suit them right now.

People who think Rogers or Potter are realistic targets are delightfully optimistic about the current state of the FAI and Irish football in general. Fair play.

Hopefully the emergence of Evan Ferguson will help us become more competitive under Kenny or whoever comes next. We still need someone to supply him but maybe that's Smallbone or Moran who seems to be making the bench at Brighton here and there. For me, a large part of our problem is having no proper frontman or at least nobody who can be relied upon consistently. We've had false dawns / bright patches when one of our many erratic strikers has hit a bit of form (Robinson, Obafemi, Parrot) but nobody has really taken over the mantle from McGoldrick, let alone Keane. Both different players obviously but they offered something up front that we have been lacking. They knew how to play international football and lead the line. The team knew what they could do and we could play to their strengths.

I remember being really excited about the idea of Kenny trying to play a bit of football and having Aaron Connolly, Obafemi and Idah all playing around McGoldrick.....that completely fell apart. At least the 3 young lads are all back on the right road but now Evan has leapfrogged them all. We could still use a bit of experience up there with him I think. At the moment he comes across as the more intelligent and mature of the bunch and he's 18.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Oh I know they are both miles outside of what the FAI can afford, but even if more money were not an issue, I don't think it's a job that would suit them right now.

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Yep - it's kind of bizarre that we're even discussing it tbh. For lots of reasons!

Alright let's get more realistic:

Terry Connor.

Knows the lads, the set-up, is now 60, perfect age, can call on Mick for advice....

Managerial career: 13 games and no wins.

Is he one of those who's much better suited to being a coach rather than a manager?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Managerial career: 13 games and no wins.

Is he one of those who's much better suited to being a coach rather than a manager?

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Maybe get the sarcasm radar serviced there Pineapplers ?

Was it? It can be hard to tell at times on here!

I dunno. It sounds like the budget for a new manager is about two bushels of wheat and an ice-cream every other month. We might need the next manager to be independently wealthy.

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Originally Posted by John83

I dunno. It sounds like the budget for a new manager is about two bushels of wheat and an ice-cream every other month. We might need the next manager to be independently wealthy.

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George Soros ? !

Maybe not quite that independently wealthy. Are we still paying Robbie Keane? ;)

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Originally Posted by John83

I dunno. It sounds like the budget for a new manager is about two bushels of wheat and an ice-cream every other month. We might need the next manager to be independently wealthy.

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I hear Steve Staunton has done quite well for himself

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Originally Posted by John83

Maybe not quite that independently wealthy. Are we still paying Robbie Keane? ;)

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That's hard to read even as a joke.

Good to see him at the Dublin derby.
Wonder what he made of Graham Burke and Jack Byrne’s contributions

I think the door is closing on League of Ireland involvement in the senior squad for the foreseeable to be honest. There's just too much depth coming through at a higher level. Other than a keeper coming in as third choice cover or a few players coming in to train with the squad for experience, I can't see anyone from the domestic league being anywhere near the senior team anytime soon.

Are Jack Byrne's two cameo appearances in the Nations League the only competitive League of Ireland appearances for the senior team since the 1980s?

The outlier is perhaps a really really talented kid. Like if Ferguson hadn’t had a British passport, he’d have been in LOI until after his 18th birthday. So he feasibly could be playing LOI now before signing for Brighton in July (or having signed in January).

Obviously Ferguson may not have developed as quickly in LoI and it’d be a lot harder to justify calling him up.

But theoretically if a 17 year old Evan scored 30 goals for Bohs or Rovers last season - I could imagine people wanting a call up.

Right now, Ferizaj and Curtis followed by maybe McManus are the high profile examples of lads who have stayed around like that. But there’s a gulf in class between them and Evan.

Byrne is getting close to the levels he hit before and would be useful if he can get there again imop. Plenty will disagree but there's nobody like him in the team. Smallbone maybe the closest? How has Ronan been doing in the states? Moran maybe? Our set pieces would at least improve with Byrne. They were terrible v France. I'd like to have someone like that in the squad for teams who will sit in against us. He'd be well able to play against Gibraltar etc. I don't think Burke is anywhere close even if he was brilliant on Friday. He's a joy to watch at LoI level but I was surprised he got a call up even at his peak.

I'd say Kenny was more interested in Farrugia though to be honest. He's still only 23 and is looking like he could go play at a higher level now.

Overall I'd be shocked if we see a LoI call up in the near future.

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Originally Posted by elatedscum

The outlier is perhaps a really really talented kid. Like if Ferguson hadn’t had a British passport, he’d have been in LOI until after his 18th birthday. So he feasibly could be playing LOI now before signing for Brighton in July (or having signed in January).

Obviously Ferguson may not have developed as quickly in LoI and it’d be a lot harder to justify calling him up.

But theoretically if a 17 year old Evan scored 30 goals for Bohs or Rovers last season - I could imagine people wanting a call up.

Right now, Ferizaj and Curtis followed by maybe McManus are the high profile examples of lads who have stayed around like that. But there’s a gulf in class between them and Evan.

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Fair point. As an aside, I wonder would Ferguson have stayed around if he hadn't been able to go to England? Or would he have gone to continental Europe? Staying at home for a couple of years and getting first team experience might help some players, but someone at his level needed to leave Ireland at 16 to fulfill his potential to be honest.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Byrne is getting close to the levels he hit before and would be useful if he can get there again imop. Plenty will disagree but there's nobody like him in the team. Smallbone maybe the closest? How has Ronan been doing in the states? Moran maybe? Our set pieces would at least improve with Byrne. They were terrible v France. I'd like to have someone like that in the squad for teams who will sit in against us. He'd be well able to play against Gibraltar etc. I don't think Burke is anywhere close even if he was brilliant on Friday. He's a joy to watch at LoI level but I was surprised he got a call up even at his peak.

I'd say Kenny was more interested in Farrugia though to be honest. He's still only 23 and is looking like he could go play at a higher level now.

Overall I'd be shocked if we see a LoI call up in the near future.

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I'd call up Mandroiu or Azaz before Byrne at this point to be honest. Smallbone well ahead of all of them at the moment though and Moran will be an interesting one to watch in that position.