Damien Duff

I think the key thing that's needed is a proper pyramid. Right now, there's no incentive at all for, say, Navan Town to grow. That's the single biggest issue we have*. If you give clubs a reason to push themselves, then the structure across the country will improve.

We barely have any senior clubs as it is - we struggle to fill the First Division for example - so merging clubs and giving us even fewer can hardly help the bigger picture.


* - The next is people throwing out random suggestions about rethinking the league while not actually actively supporting it.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Rumours circulating of Jack Byrne to Shels. Not sure how solid those are. But that would be interesting.

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Was linked with a move to MLS a few weeks ago? Can Shels really afford to pay him more than a club in the States?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think the key thing that's needed is a proper pyramid. Right now, there's no incentive at all for, say, Navan Town to grow. That's the single biggest issue we have*. If you give clubs a reason to push themselves, then the structure across the country will improve.

We barely have any senior clubs as it is - we struggle to fill the First Division for example - so merging clubs and giving us even fewer can hardly help the bigger picture.


* - The next is people throwing out random suggestions about rethinking the league while not actually actively supporting it.

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Look at the LOI as a product. the average person in Ireland doesn't give a rats ass about it.

Because the product that has been presented and sold to the average person isn't palatable.

You are thinking as a football man, which is fair enough. but just the lads on foot.ie and ybig.ie aren't going to better any parsnips.

We have 5 million people in Ireland, we are one of the richest countries on earth we can have a fully pro league? we just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding

It will take years as well ! its far from ideal I know

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Was linked with a move to MLS a few weeks ago? Can Shels really afford to pay him more than a club in the States?

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No they cant! but I do wonder is he a home bird and may never be happy aboard, I don't know

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Originally Posted by Diggs246

Look at the LOI as a product. the average person in Ireland doesn't give a rats ass about it.

Because the product that has been presented and sold to the average person isn't palatable.

You are thinking as a football man, which is fair enough. but just the lads on foot.ie and ybig.ie aren't going to better any parsnips.

We have 5 million people in Ireland, we are one of the richest countries on earth we can have a fully pro league? we just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding

It will take years as well ! its far from ideal I know

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I agree with that. But it doesn't mean your suggestion would work.

"We just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding" - that's simply not going to happen.

In the meantime, if you're interested in the league or Irish football in general, put your money where your mouth is. If enough people did that, growth would follow.

4 Ps

Price
Place
Product
Promotion

Page 1 of any Marketing textbook, but as true as anything in life.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I agree with that. But it doesn't mean your suggestion would work.

"We just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding" - that's simply not going to happen.

In the meantime, if you're interested in the league or Irish football in general, put your money where your mouth is. If enough people did that, growth would follow.

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The funding available from the EU isn't enough currently, but its there ( 100s of 1000s as posed to millions that is really needed)

https://clustercollaboration.eu/site...014_-2020_.pdf

Look who give the "forward" on this one !!
https://www.hoo.hr/images/izdavastvo/ostalo/funding-for-sports-in-the-european-union.pdf

Also domestically. the state gave 150,000 to Wesley college to build a hockey pitch! not because they deserved it but their tender was professionally completed to the required standards

150k isn't going to advance the league in fairness. Plus, the State recently allocated €4m to Harps alone for their new ground.

But capital investment and current investment are different things. A new stadium won't pay wages or sign players.

I'll say it again - if you're interested in the league or Irish football in general, put your money where your mouth is. If enough people did that, growth would follow.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

150k isn't going to advance the league in fairness. Plus, the State recently allocated €4m to Harps alone for their new ground.

That was just an example.... its probably close to the league winners price money!

RE 4m for harps now your talking! yes it capital investment and yes I believe that will help fill the stands if his attractive to go to

But capital investment and current investment are different things. A new stadium won't pay wages or sign players.

Correct both is needed

I'll say it again - if you're interested in the league or Irish football in general, put your money where your mouth is. If enough people did that, growth would follow.

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but enough people wont do that if the product stays as is

sorry I made a balls of the post!

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Originally Posted by Diggs246

but enough people wont do that if the product stays as is

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Stop absolving yourself of blame here.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Stop absolving yourself of blame here.

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I'm not... I don't go to the matches and I should and actually i will, I used to love going to UCD games
but please join me on planet earth, you must know what's needed is so much bigger then that

Of course more is needed - but merging clubs won't help when there aren't any. The clubs have access to funding. But funding or a new stadium won't pay for wages. Focusing on population centres has already failed as shown.

I think those who go to games (as osarusan has also hinted at) get quite frustrated at ill-thought-through suggestions being thrown out by people who don't actually support the league first, or bland comments like "it needs completely rethinking" (not your comment I know). Throw in the AIL suggestion and you're close to a bull**** bingo card.

But you did say "Please join me on planet earth", and that doesn't make sense when you earlier post "we just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding".

Anyways, in the meantime, to show no hard feelings (cos we're all on the same side here!) have a free UCD programme. :)

(Also - this probably doesn't have anything to do with Duffer any more...)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Of course more is needed - but merging clubs won't help when there aren't any. The clubs have access to funding. But funding or a new stadium won't pay for wages. Focusing on population centres has already failed as shown.

I think those who go to games (as osarusan has also hinted at) get quite frustrated at ill-thought-through suggestions being thrown out by people who don't actually support the league first, or bland comments like "it needs completely rethinking" (not your comment I know). Throw in the AIL suggestion and you're close to a bull**** bingo card.

But you did say "Please join me on planet earth", and that doesn't make sense when you earlier post "we just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding".

Anyways, in the meantime, to show no hard feelings (cos we're all on the same side here!) have a free UCD programme. :)

(Also - this probably doesn't have anything to do with Duffer any more...)

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AIL - All Ireland league? If so I would have thought this would be a very good thing for the league. 2 divisions.

What are your thoughts on it? (I see the Dutch and Belgium leagues are trying to join up)

I think Stu is referring to how it's become old hat as an idea that people have a tendency to throw it out as a self-evident cure of all ills of Irish football without considering the myriad of problems that would come with its attempted implementation and possible execution.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Enlighten us regarding the 'rethinking' of the LOI.

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Originally Posted by kennedmc

AIL - All Ireland league? If so I would have thought this would be a very good thing for the league. 2 divisions.

What are your thoughts on it? (I see the Dutch and Belgium leagues are trying to join up)

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Actually one failed experiment with merger / agglomeration around a population centre proves nothing. There is a difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition. Catchment and commercial sustainability might not always be sufficient, but it is always fundamentally necessary. As someone said it worked in Sweden and it’s the reason why Denmark, Holland, and Belgium can support a decent professional league. How on earth can the Dublin conurbation sustain six football clubs and Belfast 5? Gothenburg, Rotterdam, Copenhagen, Malmö, Brussels, Antwerp, Amsterdam support one or two clubs each. The idea that the only people who support football are people going to LOI games is absolute nonsense. How many Irish people follow Premier League teams or Celtic? I’d rather we had a league and a product that capitalised on the existing and latent support base for soccer. How many people who watch Ireland games go and watch LOI games - 10%?

With a bit of goodwill and imagination we could retain the expertise and experience that’s embedded in the LOI but harness it to develop something that’s better for everyone. It’s frankly embarrassing that we think getting a team into the group stage of The Europa League is equivalent to winning the World Cup.

And for the record when I lived in Dublin I was a regular attendee at LOI games supporting Rovers. It was a barely one step up from English non-league football. The product is not good enough and will never improve without very fundamental change.

The AIL is a dead duck really - I've repeatedly said here I'm in favour of it (for political reasons), but it wouldn't actually improve the product that much by adding Linfield/Crues to the LoI. The Setanta Cup kind of showed that. And the IL clubs have repeatedly shown they're happy in their own league, and given the cluster**** that is the LoI, I can't really blame them.

The problem with saying "Let's do what Sweden did" is that the LoI's problems are fairly unique in Europe. Our structure is bat**** crazy. Separate seasons for senior/intermediate football. No pyramid. The Tralee Dynamoes experience of joining the A Championship. Standalone district leagues for almost every county for example. These are big problems which actively stop clubs with potential from growing. That's the single biggest issue we have - there's nothing there to encourage clubs to really improve. The amount of big fish in small ponds we have is remarkable.

Merging Premier Division clubs to create Bohbourne and Shamrock Athletic isn't going to address that issue - in fact, it fundamentally misses the point of what's wrong with the game here. And "With a bit of goodwill and imagination we could retain the expertise and experience that’s embedded in the LOI but harness it to develop something that’s better for everyone" is just vaguely meaningless unfortunately. Also, Dublin is one-third of the country by population - one-third of the league teams seems reasonable. A proper pyramid might let, say, Tralee replace Cabo. But picking clubs and plonking them into the FD has a repeated failure rate.

I don't think anyone said "the only people who support football are people going to LOI games". But one of the best ways of supporting Irish football absolutely is to go to the games.

[QUOTE
The problem with saying "Let's do what Sweden did" is that the LoI's problems are fairly unique in Europe

How do? What’s specifically different to the Swedish situation?

Merging Premier Division clubs to create Bohbourne and Shamrock Athletic isn't going to address that issue - in fact, it fundamentally misses the point of what's wrong with the game here.

Again. How so? It’s what they did in Sweden and it worked. And how far can we progress without merging or rationalising the number of teams in small geographies? Tell me how they are going to develop and grow, because they haven’t this far.

And "With a bit of goodwill and imagination we could retain the expertise and experience that’s embedded in the LOI but harness it to develop something that’s better for everyone" is just vaguely meaningless unfortunately.

Why is it meaningless? It might be difficult, you might disagree with it, but that doesn’t make it meaningless. If the clubs faced up to the fact that they are are selling short the potential of soccer in Ireland and decided to start again with a clean slate, they could come up with something better and more sustainable. They should be thinking about the game and it’s future not just self interest. But I guess that’s the problem.

I don't think anyone said "the only people who support football are people going to LOI games". But one of the best ways of supporting Irish football absolutely is to go to the games.[/QUOTE]

It was said, but compelling people to go and watch a poor quality product “to support soccer” is a bit of a cheek. Why don’t the clubs do something to support soccer by thinking of radical ways to make it worth watching.

I specifically noted why the Swedish solution wouldn't work, and why Bohbourne wasn't the answer here.

Could I ask you to read that part of my post again before asking questions I've already answered?

Also, no-one is compelling anyone to do anything. But it doesn't change the fact that one of the best ways of supporting Irish football absolutely is to go to the games.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I specifically noted why the Swedish solution wouldn't work, and why Bohbourne wasn't the answer here.

Could I ask you to read that part of my post again before asking questions I've already answered?

Also, no-one is compelling anyone to do anything. But it doesn't change the fact that one of the best ways of supporting Irish football absolutely is to go to the games.

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Sorry reread the posts and still can’t find an actual answer to why Swedish approach would not work. Pretty sure the obstacles, vested interests etc were all pretty much the same.

Maybe you are right that one of the best ways of supporting Irish football is to go to games, but people by and large don’t and there’s a reason for that. Simply wishing (not compelling) won’t make it happen. The product is flawed and that’s largely to do with the legacy of a flawed structure.