Wasn't there a fairly severe Trap u-turn, with the subsequent article being something very similar to the piece on MON above? Think it was pointed out here somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
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Wasn't there a fairly severe Trap u-turn, with the subsequent article being something very similar to the piece on MON above? Think it was pointed out here somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I don't remember that.
On balance, I'm prepared to give Sweeney credit. I think he "gets" the sports landscape in Ireland better than most, and isn't afraid to confront some accepted wisdoms. His support of his local LOI side gives him some extra points too :)
Another point that Sweeney didn't mention was that the rugby teams (national and international) success came around almost annually. The Six Nations and Heineken Cup/Champions Cup provided success after success, whereas when the soccer team failed to qualify, it meant another two years minimum before any success would be recognised on the international stage. In that time, two Six Nations would have passed, and two Champions Cup tournaments featuring at least three provincial sides.
The GAA was a roaring success in the Celtic Tiger, a national spectacle that we all could be (and still should be) proud of. But I always thought it brought out the worst in die hard GAA supporters. Both codes were dominated by a few countries, which is why I lost interested to be honest. I've mentioned it here before that whenever Ireland lost a game, especially around September when the finals were on, you'd see comments like "you'd never see GAA players without passion". Of course, nobody ever mentions the passion of the players when Kilkenny stick 20+ points on Wexford in the opening rounds of the Championship.
Something else to think about is that, following the midweek appointment of Eddie Jones, all the rugby home nations are being managed by southern hemisphere coaches, three from New Zealand and one from Australia, whereas the football teams from the same countries are all now managed by native* managers.
*no idea what the correct/PC term here is!
I think for all the protestations that rugby and GAA aren't like football, it looks to me that rugby and GAA are trying really hard to be just like football. Rugby seems to be at the stage of its "product life cycle" that cable TV era football was at 10-15 years ago. It's a shame that they aren't learning the lessons, the economic & structural lessons (I'll happily admit that there are good things that football can learn from GAA and rugby, for sake of balance). In TV era football we saw an influx of new very rich and agitative club owners trampling over weak associations, TV money unevenly spread across the major leagues and often within the major leagues, financial pressures on clubs due to increasing wage demands and so on. Football reacted too late to these changes. Rugby is looking at these changes fat in the face, armed with perfect knowledge of what happens in these circumstances, and is choosing to ignore them.
Separately (well, not that separate really) Neil Francis in yesterday's Sindo is convinced that Jonah Lomu's death was creatine-related. One of the striking things of rugby's venture into the TV era / professional era is its lack of regard for player welfare. At some levels rugby is being careful but at elite level the players are being flogged to death and the players' unions barely have a look in in the sport's governance & competition design.
Valid point about the rich owners dominating the game particularly in France and England. Football has a genuine chance to regain the public's interest now as financial constraints are slowly affecting the provinces' chances of success. Irish football's biggest problem now is Delaney doing something stupid and the genuine lack of emerging talent which is a real threat to building a feeling of positivity around the game after the Euros are over. I do take exception to a tool like Francis making claims about Lomu without real evidence to support his claims, he craves attention even if it is negative.
These are the articles I was talking about. The contradiction, u-turn, whatever you want to call it was actually pointed out by Tets after I had posted Sweeney's second piece, which was written just over a year after his first. He does make a slight reference to it himself, but it was very tame considering the dramatic change in mood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Vendetta is an Italian word - Eamonn Sweeney 17/10/2010
Silencing the chorus of boos - Eamonn Sweeney 20/11/2011
What's noticeable too is how he felt we had turned a corner when we qualified for Euro 2012. It's very similar to how he seems to view this qualification in terms of the fans perception of the team, even though he's more or less saying the opposite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eamonn Sweeney after we qualified under Trap
It seems like I'm Sweeney bashing, I'm not really but it's worth noting I think. Sweeney is only human, I'm sure I could be torn apart if somebody had the time and motivation to look through my posts on here from day one. We're all entitled to change our mind or get caught up in the moment. It's tough being a journalist when your views are publically documented and don't really allow for things like a change of heart, hindsight, etc. I enjoy his work overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eamonn Sweeney after we qualified under MON
Dont usually buy the rag that is in the Sindo but given the week thats in it, i got it yesterday. I thought this article by Joe Brolly was a good read. Written in the GAA context obviously, but interesting given our recent success. Particularly the points regarding the Olympics in Sydney and London and for all the success that they were, they had little or no impact in participation levels. Research indicates that participation comes from improved facilities, volunteers etc. Something the GAA is a country mile ahead in this country.
I disagree somewhat on the think the 'trickle down' effect as it applies to international football. I think success for the international team is vital for the next generation to get the Ireland bug. I'm not really concerned about the fluctuations of the media regarding the Irish team, more so the children and teenagers of today and they having their own heroes and moments. Packie save in 1990 or Ibaraki 2002 isnt much use to someone born in 2000, but Shane Long V Germany is and hopefully the Euros will be.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gael...-34222670.html
Without wishing to open the Trap thingy, I am not sure that the current brand of football we play is much different to Trap's. Generally it is a long ball to Murphy (lost) or Walters (controlled) and then we try and play from there. We do try and play out a bit more but it generally ends up being passed back to the keeper for the kick up the field. None of this bothers me but I can't let Sweeney's statement go. My two heroes, Giles and Dunphy, have been stating as much the whole campaign. We have Wes now of course who gets on the ball in the last third of the pitch weaving triangles while Trap's attacking options were the two wingers. However, the basic first attacking option remains the long ball, particularly from the keeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
It doesn't bother me whether the public is in love with the soccer team or not. Sure, it's nice to see a full house at Lansdowne but I know 40% of them are there for the craic and will disappear as soon as the buzz is gone. However, that said, football is the people's game which rugby is not and probably never will be. God knows they used to toast the King at the end of their meetings up to the 1930s. The GAA cannot compete either because it is not an international game and the country does not go wild when Dublin or Kerry win an all Ireland. The individual county does but not the country.
I think we should put this thread to bed. We all follow football. Good luck to the rugby but when the football team is successful it will always be the No. 1 attraction as it is the global game - the people's game.
I do think we are 'generally' trying or at least more open to playing better football. MON and Keane repeatedly mention that our ball retention needs to improve, Trap didn't want us to have the ball at all really, certainly not in areas where losing possession could do damage. They encourage being brave and taking chances and selecting the likes of Hoolahan is a fairly radical change. The football generally hasn't been much better overall though I don't think, but there have been signs of improvement, especially the other night. I think the most radical change has not been that we're more expansive, but that we're actually more solid. The extra body in midfield and more emphasis on pressing has made us much more difficult to play against, we're forcing the opposition into more mistakes and protecting our back four a lot better. I'll take that over samba football for now, and forever really. I'd assume our possession stats haven't improved much, or at all, though.
On the Neil Francis point- Francis has written in the past about doping / supplement abuse in rugby and is one of the few in the sport who actually seems to take it seriously. Rugby has a massive problem, and the more people who start asking questions the better. Maybe Lomu was never on anything and was just unlucky, but I think it's right to ask the question.
WHy does everyone on here who has read the Sunday independent start off with:
"i dont normally buy the sunday independent rag" or something similar :D You shouldn't feel the need to justify yourself.
I like Sweeney, but Delores makes a good point, I think he sees himself as a spokesman for the little common fella, or the outlet for him. So he changes as he interprets what the little maneen in the corner is thinking. Sometimes he probably gets that wrong. Originally he used to just write about what he thought and felt himself, which is when I really did like him - because i related to it.
I took an interesting bit from Dion Fanning, which i think answers Owlsfan - "In some ways, O'Neill's analysis was no different to Trapattoni's but O'Neill's solution was. "We lack certain things," he said last week but his Ireland try to overcome them with daring; Trapattoni's Ireland closed their eyes and hoped the world wouldn't notice." To me and many other's it was always edge of the seat stuff against the top teams, hoping for a 0-0, no football but loads of energy in and around the box, we were limited and by god did we know it and did we play that way. But we weren't that limited. And MON has shown that, he has also looked at ways of overcoming the limitations we do have. Trap just shut up shop and that's the way it was. With Trap against the top teams we always looked like a game away from a good beating, with O'Neill we have generally competed. With Trap against the slightly better teams it was boring, basic, hope we nick a corner or cross or a knock down for Robbie or someones arse and in. We have shown we try to play football against average and slightly better teams under Mon, and more importantly that we will never give up, until the death.
As I said, I don't want to get in to the Trap thing. It's old hat but to quote Dion Fanning against me - hmmmm. I actually stopped buying the Indo because of his ignorant and scurrilous attacks on Irish football supporters in Poland. He only got his job through nepotism.
The Indo was a bit like the Late Late in our house growing up - the weekend for the parents was incomplete without both. It wasn't a bad paper. But the Sunday World came along and the Indo had to dumb down. I get the Sunday Times now although the next one is published by the time I have fought me way through half of it.
It doesn't matter who writes what, if they are making valid points that's all that matters. Don't let your prejudices get in the way of that.
And I agree about the Sunday Times. There really isn't actually any paper properly produced in Ireland would reading on a Sunday to be honest.
The Irish Times at a push if you didn't get around to it on Saturday.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I think Neil Francis is trying to be complimentary to the football team here: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...-34235407.html
But he just can't quite do it!
Pointless articles like that really do fuel the divide.
The only divide is among the thick-headed and the media who'll find a reason to whinge about anything or everything.
The soccer team are ****-a-hoop now and the best thing since sliced bread. But that can and will change.
The best thing to happen Irish rugby in the long-term is a defeat against Argentina in the QF. Because it shows that we aren't as good as we think we are and need to up our game and consistently the IRFU have shown that they can do that.
I love my country winning at anything.
"switch voters looking for success - international success."
I know a lot of these people.
As we all do.
Remember all those Lunster fans?
I think it's always easy for people to have more of a connect with GAA and Rugby teams because they live in Ireland first and foremost and much more available. I've often seen O'Driscoll, D'arcy or a couple of Dublin players in a pub supping pints with nobody annoying them.
The soccer lads all live abroad and are kind of superstars playing in the biggest (one of) league in the world and whether they like it or not are associated with that crass football culture where players buy big cars with pink tyres or get snooker tables with their names on it (Stephen Ireland on both occasions), sell their wedding photos to OK! Magazine, have thrones at their wedding (Beckhams) have tattoo sleeves, highly-styled haircuts etc.
What I'm trying to say is that a lot of soccer culture is a little bit TOWIE whereas the GAA and rugby lads come across a little bit more Glenroe.