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Yeah....Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
England has a population 50m, Germany 80m, Spain 45m, Italy 60m.
The countries you have listed there all have 12 team leagues, akin to their populations... not 20.
Read my response again. (I think you misread it...)
I think this discussion has swayed somewhat to a population contest.
In an other aspest I don't believe that P1 would be ready in time to lauch this AIPL in August 09. The FAI and especially the IFA will not stand for this plan in it's current format(the figures included in the proposal are ludicrous and I think the expenses they believe they will incur are vastly under estimated) and more importantly they would have the backing of UEFA who probably will have the final say on this matter.
If P1 has got something out of this is that the whole football community on the island is talking about this and this is quite a divisive issue whilst still in the public domain.
Speaking as somebody who supports a team on the outside of the cosy cartel of the 12 teams selected, I would never support a team in the AIL or subscribe, go to a game unless Dundalk where in it. It could well be the sentiment of other supporters whose teams are outside but I can only speak for me.
I think one thing has to be found out by the FAI and the IFA are what contingency plans for P1 and what will happen if this whole thing goes pear shaped in the first couple of years?
All in response to the laughable suggestion that because England, Germany and Italy have larger-than-normal premier divisions, so should we.Quote:
Originally Posted by jinxy lilywhite
Teams in a large population centre (like Galway or Limerick) might have current problems, but at least they have the potential to one day pull in a crowd over 10,000. But given the populations of towns like Sligo, Dundalk, and especially Ballybofey, we can be sure that such a crowd will NEVER show up there. Whilst it might seem unfair to teams achieving fine results on the field to cherry pick sides, it is a financial reality that if this country is to have a league that isn't to continue to fester, and is to have some degree of success in Europe, that cherry picking must happen. The alternative is to carry on as we are, watch more sides go to the wall and stand by as apartments and a TESCO are built on top of their grounds, before realising what has to happen and getting a worse deal in 10 years.
It has to make sense to look at successful formats in other European nations of similar populations.
Serbia - 7,780,000 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Bulgaria - 7,621,337 - 16 teams x 2 meetings per season
Switzerland - 7,301,994 - 10 teams
Ireland - 5,962,000 - ????????
Slovakia - 5,422,366 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Denmark - 5,368,854 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Finland - 5,302,545 - 14 teams x 2 meetings per season
Georgia - 4,960,951 - 12 teams
Norway - 4,743,193 - 14 teams x 2 meetings per season
Croatia - 4,490,751 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
LOI has a lower co-efficient than all these league, bar Georgia, which is dominated by one team, and I would suspect Dinamo Tiblisi (who have won 13of the 19 championships played since independence) would expect to progress against any LOI side. As putting all Ireland's eggs in a single Dublin side basket isn't practical, I would conclude the only way to improve the standard is a proposal at least similar to the P1 proposal.
The Georgian league also used to have 16 teams, but reduced this to 14. Croatia also experimented with 16 teams in the 90's, but reverted to 12 after a single season. Slovakia meanwhile used to have 10, but recently expanded this to 12.
To me this suggests 10 is too few, and leads to boredom from playing the same other nine side’s week after week. 16 however leads to boredom from playing poor quality sides every other week, and slices the cake to many ways in a country of our size.
This leaves a number between 12-14. Given our situation of having a concentration of teams around Dublin, the most comparable model to my eyes in the list above is Norway, which has 6 teams in or around Oslo. The Norwegian league has also recently achieved the kind of improvement we seek for Ireland. Perhaps one day we can see a Linfield or Cork City playing in the group stages of the Champions League as Rosenberg have done.
Following the Norwegian model would also have the benefits of making a straight forward home and away season possible, without confusing potential new customers to Irish football with games played on neutral venues as part or the league, or splitting the league into championship and relegation groups.
I would include the 10 teams suggested by P1 (Derry City, Cork City, Bohemians, Drogheda Utd, Limerick 37, Glentoran, Linfield, Galway Utd, St Patrick's Athletic and Shamrock Rovers). I would also include...
- Longford Town, as the 10 leave the midlands completely without representation
- Portadown, as there is a high population in the Portadown-Lurgan area with a strong football tradition
- Belfast/Donegal Celtic if there is any truth in the story about a new stadium in west Belfast backed by Peter Curiston
- the winners of a play-off competition open to all Irish League and LOI teams not already chosen.
I believe such a league would give football a real bounce when it started, and could hold interest in the longer term. I would play it from March - August so as not to compete directly with the EPL Premier League, and to give Ireland’s sides the advantage of being at their sharpest at the early stages of the European competitions.
You would want to check your facts in regards to Sligo pulling 10,000 + this has been done in past on quite a few occasions in the past. Dundalk i would say the same but i am not sure. I have to laugh at guys on here who come on stating what the league needs to do without checking facts and in the process of displaying their ignorance want to shut down two of the best and longest establised provincial clubs on the Island (not to mention one that is full time professional and this would be one of main aims of the new league to have all clubs full time).Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
In the last year we have seen what a fiasco the FAI made promoting Galway ahead of Dundalk, a club which came up because it was seen as the way forward for all clubs but is now that is relying on it's directors just to see out the season before they go back semi professional next year.
Really?? Hate to rain on your parade (I'm actually quite enjoying it), but the capacity of the showgrounds is 9000 according to worldstadiums.com. If you believe wikipedia it is only 5500.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac
Now... What was that you were saying about research??
btw, i never mentioned closing down any club. they will probably have to adjust their setup, but the number of clubs going to the wall already is evidence if any were needed that there are a lot of professional clubs in Ireland who simply can't afford it
God have you noticed anything missing from the ground in the least two years ? Like an end? You have come on here talking complete rubbish about something you think you have an idea about but clearly you have not got a clue. Over 13,000 (Offical figure i think was 13,082) for a cup semi final v Cobh in 1983 something similar v Shams in 1977 in the 90's there was just under 10,000 at a game v FC Brugge. There are 3 matches that spring to mind so what you have said as is complete rubbish that has not being researched just complete tosh your proposal would mean that the league would lose a professional to promote a club that have never being professional because of potential (Don't people like you ask why that club have never being professional in the past?).Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
I am ulikely to have missed anything missing from the ground as I have never been there. Have you noticed anything missing from Inver Park or Suffolk Road recently??
http://foot.ie/showthread.php?p=960054
According to this arcived thread the record is 9000 for a game against Shamrock Rovers in the 1976/77 season. I mean there are no shortage of people who claim a million people were on O'Connell St after Italia 90, or at Bobby Sands funeral, but there is always a large element of exaduration.
Have you got any source for these wonderful attendences you quote??
It really doesn't matter anyway, the average attendance at Sligo is under 1500. For all the abuse Galway United get they pull in more people every week, and a team from a provincial capital city of over 70,000 people clearly has a better chance of supporting a club than a small town of 20,000.
This is quite funny and amusing you are lifting information from random internet posters on here :D. You seem to have no idea about football i am sure you would have Kilkenny in there if they still had a team in the league, but only for their potential because of their population ignoring all other norms and values for the people of that area. Guys like you scare me to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac
Look at the post further down the page from the poster named Believer he gives a figure like mine. It shows the health and safety was never really a concern back then.
Record attendance at Oriel is 21000 (1979 European Cup 2nd Round v Celtic), and we consistently got crowds in the region of 20000 for European matches at Oriel and 20000+ when played at Dalymount. I'm not sure what the record attendance for a domestic fixture is, but I'd be willing to bet it is is in excess of 10000 -- I'll have a look at Jim Murphy's History of Dundalk FC and let you know. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
Attendance figures from the 70's and 80's are hardly relevant, every club experienced considerably better crowds in those decades than they do now due to no EPL, more interest in local football, less obviously awful facilities etc.
It's also foolhardy to think that any club can realistically regain those figures. The best we can hope for, at the moment, is to increase attendances to around 3-5,000 and keep them there. And at the moment some clubs are in a better position to do that than others. Cherry picking is the obvious, if cruel, result.
You have made a lot of good points, however, having a 14 team league like Norway means a 26 game season. This is simply not enough games (gate receipts) to support clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
From a few weeks ago
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-13898387.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by sullanefc
Norway only do the 26 games because of the poor winters they have over a long period of time, here, IF the FAI went for 14 teams, I would say they would have a 39 game season!
You mean you haven't realised that everything thats done in England should be copied here because the 'Premiership' is the greatest thing ever!Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Dundalks record crowd is in and around 19000. That was in the 70s. I don't know the population of the town back then but it can't have been much more. Now it is between 30 and 35000. Those huge crowds of the 60s and 70s are never going to be back again. We will struggle to get average gates of over 4 or 5000 anywhere, no matter that gimmicks are pulled, lets be realistic, thanks to the hold English football has on us here, things will not change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac
Good to see the IFA clearly setting out their position out.
My concern relates to the Platium One, Fintan Drury and Jim Roddy. I think when the FAI says it is supportive of the idea of an All-Ireland league, I don't think they are saying that they are supportive of handing control over to a self-appointed body with no curent involvement in the league. I'd like to see the FAI and the IFA continue to explore that idea with no reference or input from P1. P1 don't give a toss about domestic football in this country.
18 months ago you could have been talking about the FAI...Quote:
Originally Posted by SMorgan
Teams should be there on merit, not on where they are from.
Sunday Times reporting today that the IFA won't even consider it, and while the FAI were open to discussions initially that the members opposed to it couple with the IFA's stance means that they have to respect the wishes of those who don't want an AIPL. That's that dead in the water then
That's great news!!
Regardless of the FAI/IFA stance this proposal will rumble on for ages to come. As long as domestic soccer continues to struggle, alternatives will be in the mix.
Wouldn't matter if Bill Gates came on board to finance Platinum One if the FAI and the IFA don't back it. Uefa won't even consider this league if our associations won't recognise itQuote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Agreed. But it won't just disappear from view and just because FAI/IFA don't back it now doesn't mean they won't u-turn on it. I just don't imagine that such a proposal will die as easily as you say. I could see it hibernate for a few years at a time until it re-emerges in a more palatable form...either that or until the associations recognise that desperate times, for their respective leagues, require desperate measures.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
I'd love to see the FAI and IFA come together and form an All-Ireland league with two divisions. Platinium One should even be asked to get involve in some form. But at the same time it has to be made clear the well being of the game in this country extends beyond 8 to 10 clubs and that the control of the game will not be handed over to an otherside body.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
That's just not on.
The amount of naivety around negotiation skills and the way business works on this thread is hilarious.
IIRC the English Premiership wasn't initially supported by the English FA.
Don't underplay the strength of Plantinums hand in having a lot of the clubs supporting them.
It may not happen to Platinums timeline or reflect fully their design, but they have successfully planted the idea and combined with the current financial difficulties they have probably succeeded in provoking an acceptance that some kind of major change is required.
All that needs to be worked out is the detail. That might take years, but the main thing is that there has and continues to be movement in the right direction.
Not sure about that, but the point is that it did go forward under the auspices of the FA. It was a breakaway from the Football League, not from the actual National Association. That would be a massive difference with the P1 proposals.
Actually thinking about it, not sure who's showing the naivety - afterall the clubs were much more powerful until they gave up power the FAI. Looks like a very short sighted move by those clubs now wanting to break away again.
My memory was that the EPL strong-armed the FA by threatening a withdrawal of the supporting clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Bear in mind that its generally assumed that large chunks of UEFA's rulebook is ripe for challenge in the European courts.
They did, and it's to the FA's shame that they let them do so. If the FA had stood firm and said that they breakaway if they want, but they wouldn't get any of the European places and their players wouldn't be allowed represent their international teams (FUFA would have backed this) than how long do you think the threat would have lasted?Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
People keep saying that and yet no-one actually challenges these laws, wonder whyQuote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
I am sure where the naivety is. Its coming P1 side. The document they produced isn't even a basis for serious debate. We've heard all this 10-team lark with no P and R from Roddy during his Derry City days. It appears to me that nobody took him seriously then, and I don't think many people will, now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
In my opinion these guys are wasting their time.
Anybody that thinks that UEFA will give a new league, 2 champion league spots and 2 UEFA Cup spots is sadly delusional.
Interesting aside in the Independent today about yesterday's game between Cobh and Sunderland. Only 3000 went along, prompting McDonnell to note that perhaps the novelty had worn off seeing Sunderland play. If that's the case (and I'm sure there were numerous other reasons why the crowd was that low), there's no way an AIPL would sustain the interest in this country long enough to have even one season with ten fully-pro teams, let alone to keep it going. Nothing in the Platinum One proposals have addressed this (bar that catch all, "marketing"...)
I don't think anyone coulld seriously equate league football to friendlies. Completely nonsensical point stu, not unlike many of Drury's assertionsQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The reason it was low was because it was €30 adults and €30 kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Mr Drury would need to get a move on :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge
The FAI are doing a good job of running the politics behind the league.
However, its clear to me (and anyone else with half a brain) that the FAI are a marketing nightmare of the league. The media absolutely despise the FAI, rightly or wrongly, and there is no way they should in charge of marketing the league.
The idea of Platinum One taking over the league's marketing shines a ray a light on the whole thing. I think that an all Ireland league would be bad for Finn Harps but we may be relegated anyway so it doesn't really matter. And over time I think we can get promotion into such a league if we are good enough. The same goes for any team.
On the subject of marketing the only decent thing that the FAI have done is the Live TV coverage and MNS programme. The written media coverage is still a disaster, the add they put on TV is rediculously poor and every journalist in the country seems to have it in for them.
I for one think that its time to give the marketing of the league over to someone else.
Platinum One have the right connections to "make it happen" for the league with the Irish media including all the press, Setanta Sports and RTE.
Its time for clubs to support the Platinum One bid to run the league. It badly needs it whether we like it or not. They are the right people for the job!!!
:)
With all due respect, the way you're talking about Harps getting promoted into the league suggests to me that you need to go back and read the P1 proposal again. There will be no P&R for three seasons and then after that promotion will be by invitation to club's meeting P1's "strict criteria"
The proposal as published doesn't suggest to me that they are the right people. It suggests to me that they haven't a clue what they're on about and the last people in the world we should be looking to.
Their clients include Barcelona, Manchester United, Setanta and Sky Sports so Im not sure how you came to that conclusion. :rolleyes: They are right too about not letting in clubs without the proper support and stadia in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMorgan
You are not paying attention. P1 are mega by any standards and the fact they see a big future for domestic soccer on this island is not to be scoffed at. I also suspect this is the real reason for the shocking and hysterical anti-domestic soccer articles by the bogball animals in the Irish meeja of late.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMorgan
A top soccer league in Ireland = bye bye GAA hegemony. Hence the recent psychotic convulsion by the sports media in this country concerning anything which can put domestic soccer in a bad light.
If you think P1 haven't a clue, then you need to do some research. They are bigger than Niall Quinn's wildest Oirish soccer pimping potential could ever be.
On the contrary I think the "highlight everything negative we can about" domestic football campaign in the media has been cleverly orchestrated by Platinum 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good