Unemployment

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Originally Posted by KevB76

I dont mean to be flippant but the pay cut will no longer be relevant to them when they are let go.
They are in the same boat as the rest of us who have already had a cut, survived the first cull, but dont know from one month to the next how long our job will hold out.

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The public sector are being told they are getting the cut because they have job security. Thats basically been the argument, and its one I agree with to an extent.

You cant then use that argument but also cut the pay of those who dont have the job security.

Personally I think a pay cut for permanent workers and a pay freeze(we were all due increases) for temporary workers would have been fair.

You're punishing those that cant afford to pay for the mistakes of others. Just because the same is happening in other areas doesnt make it fair for the government to do the same

Lads this reminds me of two mice fighting over a tiny little crumb of cheese while the cat walks away with the cream the cheese sandwich and the lobster. Refocus your anger at the people who caused this not at people who decided to go for steady dependable jobs.

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Originally Posted by micls

The public sector are being told they are getting the cut because they have job security. Thats basically been the argument, and its one I agree with to an extent.

You cant then use that argument but also cut the pay of those who dont have the job security.

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Yeah I see your point, it seems harsh alright (from the point of view of somebody from the public service ethos).

But what I'm saying is they are no worse off than hordes of us in who have had cuts for other (obvious) reasons, and are still at risk of being let go. Whilst I can empathise with these people, dont expect me to feel sorry for them. Welcome to my world.

I'll tell you who I do feel sorry for though, is the public service workers on say €30000 or less who've been hit with this new pensions levy, thats really going to make things diifcult for them. It just goes to show how far removed from reality the likes of Martin "its only 3%" Manseragh and the other tools are.
Its fine for them to lose 9% off a salary 5-10 times greater than your average person, what do they even need to use the salary for when they've expenses 2 or 3 times a normal wage! How could they possibly have any idea what its like to get by on a normal wage? They havent a clue.

Sorry, rant over :o

One final thing I would like to say is that erosion of workers rights whether its public or private is an erosion of all workers rights. If public service pensions are eroded and the defined benefit is eroded well then private workers rights will be further eroded. The greatest mistake the unions and government let happen was the idea of defined contribution and the idea that people should play with peoples pensions and lives on the stock market. A pension is far too important for that, however people see pay increases and jump for them at the the time and then pay for it in the long run. Its like who will win the race the snail or the hare and its seems that the person with defined benefit is the snail.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

One final thing I would like to say is that erosion of workers rights whether its public or private is an erosion of all workers rights. If public service pensions are eroded and the defined benefit is eroded well then private workers rights will be further eroded. The greatest mistake the unions and government let happen was the idea of defined contribution and the idea that people should play with peoples pensions and lives on the stock market. A pension is far too important for that, however people see pay increases and jump for them at the the time and then pay for it in the long run. Its like who will win the race the snail or the hare and its seems that the person with defined benefit is the snail.

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What happened to the tortoise.......did he drop out due to a pulled hamstring?

Kudos to the teacher Union going to the Anglo-Irish Banks to pitch their fury at Pension Levy.. This indeed is where the problem was created the avarice greed of that ******* Seanie Fitzpatrick and his cronies... I was apoplectic today when i heard the banking sector couldn't take a paycut due to some contractural clause.. shameful hiding bedind their vulture lawyers - Shameful Shameful... Next stage of the protest should be a march to AIB's Sheedys headmans hidouts and BOI Brian Gogan following by Tarring and feathering Drumm and Fitzpatrick and a match of shame down O'Connell Street

AFAIk teachers are protesting about general cuts in Education rather than the pay cut

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Originally Posted by Sligo Hornet

What happened to the tortoise.......did he drop out due to a pulled hamstring?

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He lost his job in the recession. At least he has a home he does not have to pay a mortgage on though.

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

Kudos to the teacher Union going to the Anglo-Irish Banks to pitch their fury at Pension Levy.. This indeed is where the problem was created the avarice greed of that ******* Seanie Fitzpatrick and his cronies... I was apoplectic today when i heard the banking sector couldn't take a paycut due to some contractural clause.. shameful hiding bedind their vulture lawyers - Shameful Shameful... Next stage of the protest should be a march to AIB's Sheedys headmans hidouts and BOI Brian Gogan following by Tarring and feathering Drumm and Fitzpatrick and a match of shame down O'Connell Street

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Do you blame the barman for your hangover?

Anyway, I can't wait 'til the end of the school year so I can picket the schoolgates for wasting my taxmoney on 4 month summer holidays...

P.S. Little known factoid, the collective noun for a group of teachers is a moan...

4 months, who gets four months.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

4 months, who gets four months.

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3 months in the summer, plus rest of year.

The Anglo protest crossed a line.

By branding all bankers together as crooks, I'm entitled to brand all public sector employees as workshy wasters. Obviously that's not the truth, but the Anglo picket invites stuff like this.

You said 4 month summer holidays. Teachers do not get 4 month summer holidays.

Did you ever hear the expression 2 wrongs do not make a right. Just because somebody makes a generalisation about bankers, it does not follow you should then make a similar generatlisation about another sector. Surely the best way to debate with an inaccurate generalisation is to prove his point wrong with facts, not with an equally in accurate generalistion..

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

You said 4 month summer holidays. Teachers do not get 4 month summer holidays.

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I believe it is 4 months holidays for secondary teachers when include Summer, Christmas, easter etc... I used to think was 3 months total until a teacher corrected me. Teaching not a high paid job mainly because of the holidays although it would seem worthwhile investigating idea of reducing summer holidays from 3 to 2 months.

Listening to Jack O'Connor the head of SIPTU on the news where he says that industrial action on a very dramatic scale will be required to resist the ongoing attacks on both public and private workers.

Having been made redundant from my last 4 jobs personally I for one would not support any person taking part in this and in my view if they do stage strikes people should be left on strike until they have no choice but to go back to work.

When people go on strike and lose earnings i am pretty sure he will still receive his full wage every week.

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Originally Posted by Battery Rover

Listening to Jack O'Connor the head of SIPTU on the news where he says that industrial action on a very dramatic scale will be required to resist the ongoing attacks on both public and private workers.

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They are deluded. Does he just want to be seen to be doing something & make it look like he is suffering with the great masses?

From the IT.

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The chairman of Ictu's public services committee, Peter McLoone, said it could "require more than one day of demonstrations to get the Government to recognise the depth of feeling among trade union members"

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I don't agree that FF (& Greens) are doing a good job but they were elected. Some people call FF right wing but thats what the voters choose. Its not like FF suddenly changed their policies as they have been reasonably consistent over the last 10 years.

Hitler was elected too.

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Originally Posted by pete

Teaching not a high paid job mainly because of the holidays although it would seem worthwhile investigating idea of reducing summer holidays from 3 to 2 months.

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I don't get it, Pete. Are you advocating extending the school year for students just to get our money's worth out of teacher's salaries?

Could we not put words in each other's mouths please? He could just as easily be advocating more education.

(Which isn't such a bad idea, although better quality education might be a better priority. Chris Horn put it very well when he said that we need to concentrate on Core skills, not "up skills".

The days when Ireland's strengths were advanced telecommunications and a highly-educated workforce are long gone. Two items Gov.ie should be working on as a priority; two items Gov.ie is worked hard against. Idiots.)

adam

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

3 months in the summer, plus rest of year.

The Anglo protest crossed a line.

By branding all bankers together as crooks, I'm entitled to brand all public sector employees as workshy wasters. Obviously that's not the truth, but the Anglo picket invites stuff like this.

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Ah thanks for that, all that Hyberbole in the media recently led me to believe that Sean Fitzpatrick was Lucifer incarnate when he was in reality just a victim of capitalism thats all, all those other bankers were just on the crest of a wave...I think we should all turn the other cheek accept that when capitalism goes wrong we should all take a hit even if not culpable - Sure if the shoe was on the other foot wouldn't the banks do the same for us.. well wouldn't they?

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

Ah thanks for that, all that Hyberbole in the media recently led me to believe that Sean Fitzpatrick was Lucifer incarnate when he was in reality just a victim of capitalism thats all, all those other bankers were just on the crest of a wave...I think we should all turn the other cheek accept that when capitalism goes wrong we should all take a hit even if not culpable - Sure if the shoe was on the other foot wouldn't the banks do the same for us.. well wouldn't they?

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I don't recall ever having said anything other than Fitzpatrick was a crook and heads should roll elsewhere. But where do you draw the line at who was and wasn't culpable? That wasn't a rhetorical question by the way, since you seem to find it easy to apportion blame, I'd be grateful if you could tell me where it stops.

Almost everyone in the state benefited from the property boom over the last few years and if we take the view that wealth created since 200X wasn't real, I'd like to know how much you and the rest of the outraged populace have handed back?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, on the way up the country was full of libertarian free marketeers tiger cubs who wanted to be left to get on n with making money, now the milks spilled everyone wants a nanny state and to be saved from their own decisions.

What else should we expect from a country that returned the current bunch of clowns in government repeatedly?

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Originally Posted by pete

I believe it is 4 months holidays for secondary teachers when include Summer, Christmas, easter etc... I used to think was 3 months total until a teacher corrected me. Teaching not a high paid job mainly because of the holidays although it would seem worthwhile investigating idea of reducing summer holidays from 3 to 2 months.

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I agree they get 4 months holidays but they do not get 4 months summer holidays.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I agree they get 4 months holidays but they do not get 4 months summer holidays.

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And that changes the argument how?

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

And that changes the argument how?

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Well if you are going to make comments about teachers and how they have too much holidays I do think it is important to have your facts right, dont you, I could easily come along and say they have 2 months summer holidays, so thats half of what you said. Surely its important to actually get the facts right.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Could we not put words in each other's mouths please? He could just as easily be advocating more education.

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Sorry, I was seeking clarification from Pete as I wasn't quite sure where he was coming from.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Sorry, I was seeking clarification from Pete as I wasn't quite sure where he was coming from.

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Neither does pete. :)

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Originally Posted by Battery Rover

Listening to Jack O'Connor the head of SIPTU on the news where he says that industrial action on a very dramatic scale will be required to resist the ongoing attacks on both public and private workers.

Having been made redundant from my last 4 jobs personally I for one would not support any person taking part in this and in my view if they do stage strikes people should be left on strike until they have no choice but to go back to work.

When people go on strike and lose earnings i am pretty sure he will still receive his full wage every week.

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:D:D

They have no regard for private sector workers. As long as the public sector isn't touched, and the private sector takes all the blows, they don't care. There was no intention of industrial action being taken until the government moved last week. :rolleyes: There were even no job cuts announced.

I also would not support any action by them.

You obviously are aware that SIPTU is 2/3 Private Sector workers compared to 1/3 Public Sector. You are also obviously aware the main elements that the Union side was trying to get agreement on in the social partnership "talks" were pension protection for private sector workers, security against home repossessions (which according to many on here is only a threat to private sector workers) and a flexicurity system? Or is it just another illinformed rant?

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Originally Posted by Macy

You obviously are aware that SIPTU is 2/3 Private Sector workers compared to 1/3 Public Sector.

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In fairness it is not obvious as 90% of what SIPTU talk about if public sector related.

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Originally Posted by pete

In fairness it is not obvious as 90% of what SIPTU talk about if public sector related.

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Not true. Might be true of the reportage, but then that fits in with the myth that only the Public Sector is unionised. The media don't want to cover the campaigns against exploitation, for workers rights, about agency rights. It doesn't suit their agenda. SIPTU has sold the last two wage agreements to their public sector branchs on the basis of the concessions for Private sector workers, such as an increased labour inspectorate.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Not true. Might be true of the reportage, but then that fits in with the myth that only the Public Sector is unionised. The media don't want to cover the campaigns against exploitation, for workers rights, about agency rights.

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AFAIK pretty much all journalists are NUJ members? I presume you mean editorial is anti union?

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Originally Posted by Macy

Or is it just another illinformed rant?

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So you don't think it's vaguely fishy that talk of industrial action and demos, only suddenly appear when it's announced that the public sector will have to take it's share of the financial pain, no?? :confused:

The recession has been ongoing since late '06, the banking crisis merely accelerated the speed of the redundancies. 150,000 people signed on over the last 12 months. They can't take to the streets, unless it's outside a dole office.

I would've thought it was a breakdown in the talks that provoked it. SIPTU have been adamant that it should be about workers in general since the break down of talks.

Just because you choose to believe what suits what you want to believe, doesn't make it true. Or more like it, just because you choose to believe what the employers organisations and government want you to believe, doesn't make it true.

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Originally Posted by Macy

I would've thought it was a breakdown in the talks that provoked it. SIPTU have been adamant that it should be about workers in general since the break down of talks.

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They were up in arms before and during the talks process. The nurses even said that cutting their pay would be "illegal". Now the decision's been made, the tax levy is being introduced, they're off to demonstrate and possibly throw the country into chaos. And keep their jobs while they're at it. :mad:

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Originally Posted by mypost

They were up in arms before and during the talks process. The nurses even said that cutting their pay would be "illegal". Now the decision's been made, the tax levy is being introduced, they're off to demonstrate and possibly throw the country into chaos. And keep their jobs while they're at it. :mad:

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Your right about the unions only getting wound up now becase of the pension levy. No one is losing their job in the public sector, but a lot of private sector workers aren't in a union so the unions aren't worried about them. Their looking after the public sector workers. If they strike, it'll be public sector strikes that will cause the most problems, buses, trains, nurses, etc.

1,100 jobs going at SR Technics (formerly Team Aer Lingus). I would suspect fairly well paying jobs there too.

Yes but Aer Lingus are taking some of this work back in house and there might be some work going for some of those 1100.

Heard the MD of the parent on news at one and he clisms we are 20% more expensive in terms of labour and labour was 95% of a maintanace bill, in essence he said they were losing money on the jobs they were doing. Bullsh%t,!! Is he telling us they only made about 25% margin on their contracts? Why didn't they call the Unions in before hand to work a solution and finally, why is Coughlan still in Office? Her office/dept is the second most important after Lenihan and she hasn't a clue.

I thought those SR Technics jobs had gone weeks ago. Ryanair have cut another 200 at DA, due to the travel tax imposed. You can't blame them for taking the action because of that, but you have to wonder what they mean when O'Leary talks constantly about "creating more jobs", and "establishing new routes". :confused::rolleyes:

As for the government, and the unions, well it's another black day for the private sector, so neither give a 4x about them really.

Ryanair announcement
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news....=gen-en-120209

Dublin Airport Authority reply
http://www.dublinairport.com/at-airp...209_stunt.html

Excellent reply IMO

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

Yes but Aer Lingus are taking some of this work back in house and there might be some work going for some of those 1100.

Heard the MD of the parent on news at one and he clisms we are 20% more expensive in terms of labour and labour was 95% of a maintanace bill, in essence he said they were losing money on the jobs they were doing. Bullsh%t,!! Is he telling us they only made about 25% margin on their contracts? Why didn't they call the Unions in before hand to work a solution and finally, why is Coughlan still in Office? Her office/dept is the second most important after Lenihan and she hasn't a clue.

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Agree about Coughlan, embarrassing at this stage.

But on SR Technics, that place has been on the verge of closing for the last few years at least. Terrible IR going back to it's TEAM days and the cuurent economic situation was the final nail in the coffin rather than the cause.

Though the point remains that it's 1,200 well paid skilled jobs gone that can't be replaced by retail or call-centre positions.

Don't know about the financial numbers but would seem reasonable that vast majority of SR Technics costs would be labour.

Ryanair would be mainly cutting back as people take less holidays in recessions. I would guess Ryanair won't cut number son main routes but will be those out of the way places that rely on holiday traffic. That said Ryanair need to keep their fares low as I would think a lot of traffic is people going to those out of the way places because of the cheap flights in the first place.

Bit off topic but I would agree with DAA facilities being third rate. Ryanair obviously no stranger to third rate facilities but I guess they like paying less for them. I read that 170 flights were cancelled last week & many at the end of the week when runway was open but the DAA could not clear the apron. Even Aer Lingus criticised them last week. Came through Pier D last week & Passport contol area is horriblly organised.