So are any of these players any use?
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So are any of these players any use?
i'm sorry, is this a thread about football now!!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
:D
gibbo and kane are ok, won't really know for a few years tho...
"The Muslims in England are, and will, always be outsiders"Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc67
"The Jews in Germany are, and will, always be outsiders"
"The Culchies in Dublin are, and will, always be outsiders"
"The Poles in Cork are, and will, always be outsiders"
"And the Catholics in Northern Ireland are, and will, always be outsiders, which is why they will never play football for Northern Ireland"
Discuss.
[Next Week, a debate on Ethnic Cleansing]
please don't extrapolate concepts by such facetious methods. until the territorial claim britain holds here is gone, it will remain thus.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
i dont think brits in dublin have anything to worry about, i mean people who think they are brits AND Irish...
but then you knew that and just wanted to pull out the one line you thought gave you cause to have a go:rolleyes:
and if you want to have a debate on ethnic cleansing, its funny cos those people who want to be irish now were the ones originially attempting to cleanse this land of them... but sure, let's not mention that eh. eyes forward!
your point about the catholics tho is fairly spot on even though you didnt intend it so. if they have to stand for another country's n.anthem and flag then its clear to see...
Now you really are looking silly. I'm no huge fan of Lomas either way, but Michael Hughes was a magificent player for NI, winning 73 caps down the years, and unquestionably was our best outfield player during the dreadful times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc67
During the years when NL and MH were together in the team, every observer would tell you that Michael invariably played above himself, whereas Neil often played below his club form. This was not anything to do with their respective effort, just one of those things that happens with international teams.
When Lawrie took over, MH was playing in the English Premiership, whereas NL was in the Scottish Premiership. He is also two years younger than NL.
And who is this "mexican", btw? Or do you mean Lawrie Sanchez - born in England, of an Ecuadorean father and Belfast mother?
And what Nationality does that make him? ;)
No, Merc67, that is an opinion. And this Irishman holds a different opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc67
However, my Passport states that I am a citizen* of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". That, my friend, is a fact. :D
(* - They no longer say "subject", you'll be surprised to know! ;) )
now your looking stupid. are we talking about now - or when michael hughes was decent?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
i thank you.
as for the mexican, its a nickname a fried of mine from up north has for Lawrie:)
So not only am I not Irish, but those players such as Chris Baird, Damien Johnson, Sammy Clingan etc who stand for "another country's n.anthem and flag" presumably aren't Catholic/Nationalist/Irish*?Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc67
Fair enough, you've put me in my place; why don't you put them straight, as well? That's when you've finished telling Willie John McBride who and what he is...:eek:
(* - Delete as applicable)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
exactly - it doesnt say youre 'Irish'! jaysus, when will ye get it.
your a 'citizen' of the northen state, that never has or never will claim to be irish. what youre doing is trying to paint Irish people as british citizens, something which perpetuates the racism and superiority of cocky englsih ****ers, who are essentially the true brits. cmon now, we all know london rules the 'union'.
people like you and the stupid belief of the brits that irish people want to be part of their little clique (those who say 'mainland' when theyr in dublin) really do my tits in
note, i never mentioned religion once.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
they are obviously happy to be 'northern irish' and tagged as such. as was Lenny at one stage, clearly half hearted because he couldnt play for his true national team and as a career move. im sure their real national identity will be arrived at not by looking at the colour of their shirt...
F*ck me it's moved on in a couple of hours.
How would you think a straight vote in the island would go for a. keeping the status quo or b. creating a united Ireland? As it was one 'country' when your football association was formed surely its fair that a retrospective vote should be taken, or has it just become a country since 1921? And would you be happy about partitioning the 6C? You're not even happy about losing two footballers let alone possibly 3/4 million people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Past performance, according to my Unit Trusts, does not guarantee anything, but if used as a guideline, in an United Ireland, yours will be the last generation. It is however something that I would strongly urge you to fight for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Well it wasn't just them. I think Ulster Unionism has to take a part of the blame? I can forgive Craig the myopia, but Carson. The w*nker was from Dublin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
As for a change on passport allocation, have you got any news on a campaign or forthcoming change of policy? It can't be that the British government are frightened of a few thousand 'Paddies' steaming into the country, which stopped them handing out passports to the Hong Kongers. At the end of the day it's the British government you need to contact on this matter. Good luck, but I think they should help their opressed kith and kin in a dogs dinner like Zimbabwe, before their half in - half out citizens of a EU partner.
Complex charachter. He was at the 1978 NI game with us, involved in a punch-up etc., and had Red Hand tatoos everywhere. Called us the NI B team, and me and my mate 'plastic Paddies', but the last time I saw him was the late eighties/early nineties. On the other hand someone called him a 'loyalist' one day and he hit the roof, claiming he wasn't loyal to the crown etc. He didn't it seem like Brenda. Also once married to a Basque woman who was later incacerated during the Franco years for 'something she never did.' He too was also a guest of a head of state, although he was cleared of stabbing a Catholic policeman at his trial. I liked the bloke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
And if we're asking questions, why did you get an Irish passport?
I'd like to see the Fitzgerald saltire removed. Scottish and Welsh independence does not interest me the slightest. Bad for the share prices I'm afraid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Why not? Anything to get rid of Ireladn's Call. I think it's a popular move amongst the NI fans? And it wouldn't make much difference although I think Trimble's an assett. But I think you'll get a more de facto RC and Protestant Irish teams than football that way. Ironically, I'd say the Republic would be more mixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Does an Irish passport prevent you playing for NI? Once again, I'm talking about citizenship and nationality. That's what is at the heart of this thread concerning these two players. Their desire to play for their nation and the right that having Irish citizenship gives them to play for said nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Ealing you talk some sh ite don't you. Its not our fault that you have an identity crisis and don't know what to call yourself. I normally feel sorry for most unionists up there in that regard-they dont know whether they're coming or going-what flag should i bring to windsor this time? am i an ulsterman today, a brit, northern irish?
-its like trying to decide what pair of socks to wear while you're at it.
Whatever it says on your passport doesnt change the fact that london would love nothing more than to have you and your ilk excommunicated from their little union. But then that would mean we'd have to put up with you and your type-which isnt exactly appealing.
You don't need to with Eailing. He'll bring it up for you. Watch out for the discussion switching to old fart cuts from 1915 by Ginger Lynn, followed by some Greek philosophy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc67
By the way surely our friends are not British but United Kingdomers. You see in Spanish, American is described as either 'Americano' or 'estadounidense'. I've yet to see 'reinounidense' as a description for 'British' although I've heard a few other words that aren't particularly complimentary. :D Anyway, my new found friends will forthwith be refered to as 'reinounidense' by me. I'm sure they'll be happy with it's inclusivity. It could eventually end up in the Real Academia Diccionario if its usage is taken up when the North face Spain next year. Still don't make dem Oirish vough. :(
I most certainly don't have an identity crisis, so no blame attaches to you or anyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by as_i_say
Quite simply, I am an Irishman, born and bred in Ireland, of Irish ancestry going back hundreds of years.
More specifically, I am a Northern Irishman. I consider myself fortunate in this, since I am also a Unionist and this allows me membership of the United Kingdom, along with my Scottish, Welsh and English compatriots, so that I can call myself "British" (a privilege denied to my relatives in the Free State after partition)
And, of course, I am also a European, even if I disagree with much of the consequences of my country's membership of the EU.
In this way, I see the issue of identity and nationality as being "tiered", or overlapping, but when asked at what level I most wish to be identified, it is my Northern Irishness which is most important to me and best reflects what I am.
Consequently, I do not see nationality or identity as "black and white" in the same way as you and certain others seem to, nor do I consider it a sign of "weakness" that I accept there may be overlaps in establishing ones place in the scheme of things. It is those people who demand certainty on such matters who seem to me to be the most insecure.
Above all, when others in similar circumstances draw a different conclusion, I would not dare to tell them they are wrong, never mind that they don't even have the right to a view.
Which brings us back to the very essence of this thread. In my ideal world, all of my fellow Northern Irishmen and women would be happy to play for or support the NI football team.
However, I accept (regrettably) that many of them feel unable to do so. Therefore, if their allegiance is to another football team (and some follow England, for reasons which I'll never fully understand!), then so be it.
In fact, my concern is not that some youngsters opt for the ROI, rather it is that we in NI may be using scarce resources to develop good young talent for the benefit of another, rival Association.
And this concern will be greatly aggravated should it turn out that the rival Association in question, whilst overtly pursuing friendly relations, should at the same time also be covertly approaching or even inducing our young players to defect in the latter stages of their development.
I don't feel I am being unfair in expressing this concern, but no doubt people will "put me right" if I am. And God knows, I might even accept what some of them have to say. (So that's you out, As I Say, Merc67 and Lopez!:D )
Merc97,
"i am insulted that someone who is british can also claim to be the smae as i am. THEY are telling me what i am! im telling them what they are not."
I am certainly not telling you what you are. I fully acknowledge what you are - at no time in the discussion have I disputed what you are, ot attempted to tell you what your not - except to point out that you are clearly not a United Irelander.
I'm sorry that you are "insulted" by my identity, but that isn't going to change. I'm British and Irish. I am home. I ain't going anywhere.
Totally confident, absolutely happy in my identity. Sure and steadfast about what I am. Unapologetic, unashamed and unbreakable in my identity.
If you cannot deal with that, it's your problem, not mine.
Now, perhaps you would answer the following.
1/ Do you want a true and durable peace on this island?
2/ If yes, how do you envisage this can be brought about?
3/ What is My role in YOUR future, ie, our shared future on this small island?
4/ What are your thoughts on French Canadians and Irish Americans?
lopez,
"How would you think a straight vote in the island would go for a. keeping the status quo or b. creating a united Ireland?"
Irrelevant.
The GFA makes it quite clear how a change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland can come about.
That Agreement was endorsed by the onverwhelming majority of people in this island.
It's done, over, finished, sorted, signed, sealed and delivered.
"Past performance, according to my Unit Trusts, does not guarantee anything, but if used as a guideline, in an United Ireland, yours will be the last generation. It is however something that I would strongly urge you to fight for"
I believe in any such agreed New Ireland, the right of those who wish to be British citizens will be upheld and ringfenced.
As in a Unit Trust investment, diversity is key.
"Well it wasn't just them. I think Ulster Unionism has to take a part of the blame? I can forgive Craig the myopia, but Carson. The w*nker was from Dublin"
Shame on all those involved.
"As for a change on passport allocation, have you got any news on a campaign or forthcoming change of policy?"
I don't believe it will take much changing - it's just that's it's down the shopping priority list a little.
We are talking about a relative few people who would feel disadvantaged by the current position. That will make changing the current position easier.
"And if we're asking questions, why did you get an Irish passport?"
It was available to me quicker than I could get a British one at the time. I got it in the interest of expediency.
"Why not? Anything to get rid of Ireladn's Call. I think it's a popular move amongst the NI fans? And it wouldn't make much difference although I think Trimble's an assett."
You don't like "shoulder to shoulder, to answer Ireland's call...four proud Provinces of Ireland"?:D
Given the debate, I can understand why.;)
I don't mind it, as it happens.
I wouldn't like to see two teams. I am content with the current and historical position.
"But I think you'll get a more de facto RC and Protestant Irish teams than football that way"
Quite possibly...but as I don't give a fiddlers about the minute differences between two very similar strands of exactly the same religion, your point is of little interest to me to be honest.
"Ironically, I'd say the Republic would be more mixed"
See above.
"Does an Irish passport prevent you playing for NI?"
No.
"Once again, I'm talking about citizenship and nationality. That's what is at the heart of this thread concerning these two players. Their desire to play for their nation and the right that having Irish citizenship gives them to play for said nation"
Once again, I reiterate that my gripe is that those who wish to play for the Republic should do so sooner rather than later.
ealing
I think you are missing the point.
It not a question of players and supporters in the North having an allegiance to ‘another’ team, many have a natural allegiance to our team, the Irish team.
UEFA clarifacion on the issue will make players fully aware of their international choices from an early age.
As I mentioned in an earlier post it‘s important for the FAI to put structures in place to cater for young players form Belfast, Derry, Lurgan etc. who wish to represent Ireland at international level and an extension of the current development and training programmes etc..Into the 6 Northern counties would put in place the necessary provision for these young players to develop, without having to use the IFA structures at youth level, as has been the case in the past
In my ideal world, a single team would represent Ireland , but failing that, I am more than happy (and proud) to follow an Irish team made up of players and supporters from all over this Island with players from Belfast & Derry playing alongside players from Dublin, Cork & Donegal.
You have failed to produce any evidence of your ‘imaginary’ tapping up or inducement theory and as I have pointed out previously, Gibson & Wilson grew up following Ireland & Kane was named in the Ireland u17 squad over two years ago , so this poaching bo***cks has no foundation.
MOved to current affairs (aka the politics forum)
Anybody's opinion change because of this debate?
Just a small point, but you missed the word "other" in your sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
There are, of course, two Irish teams.
One represented by the Irish Football Association - the original Association in Ireland - the other by the, post partition, Football Association Of Ireland.
Just wanted to clarify that before I head off for a few adult refreshments.
Nice spin. Notice how you avoided the fact that you pull out the old 'IFA have more right to be Irish than the FAI' in earlier threads (and looking at it now later threads) while denying that any legitimacy to the area they once governed. That is the thing with your identity. There is little consistency apart from 'oh that was where I was born.' BTW: I remember reading once that the Act of Union 1801 began with the words to the effect that Ireland will be forever a part of the United Kingdom. '...done, over, finished, sorted, signed, sealed and delivered' my a*se.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
As said, I'd agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Agreed with that tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I don't share your optimism re numbers, but again that side of the business has got sweet fanny adams to do with me, and I couldn't give a f*ck either way. My descendents are guaranteed Irish citizenship unless it is broken and that's all I care about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
And for a minute I thought it had something to do with this 'I'm Irish' statement you've been stringing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Complete Disney sh*te. I like the Soldiers Song thanks. I also like the Sash which is why I'd like that also included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Lopez,
"Nice spin"
Not spin at all.
I would respectfully refer you to Article 3 of The Constitution Of Ireland.:eek:
Notice how you avoided the fact that you pull out the old 'IFA have more right to be Irish than the FAI' in earlier threads (and looking at it now later threads) while denying that any legitimacy to the area they once governed.
I do not intend to "avoid" anything you wish to discuss with me.
Could you please expand on what you mean by the above, and I will gladly respond.
"That is the thing with your identity. There is little consistency"
On the contrary, I think others have already commented that I have been entirely consistent about my identity. That's because I am certain of it.
"And for a minute I thought it had something to do with this 'I'm Irish' statement you've been stringing"
Yes, I am Irish - hence my entitlement to obtain one. At the time, I was very glad of it too.
I would respectfully refer you to Article 2 of The Constitution Of Ireland.:eek:
"I also like the Sash which is why I'd like that also included"
But it's not really about tunes you like, is it?
I don't see much prospect of "The Sash" being played at Lansdowne Road (or Croke Park) for an Ireland international - personally, I don't feel particularly attached to the song either. I do recognise that those who do wear the Sash form an important part of Irish history and culture.
I would respectfully refer you to the Belfast Agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc67
Constitutional Issues 1 (vi) states:
"recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves as, and be accepted as, Irish or British or both as they may so choose, and accorgingly confirm that their right to hold both Irish and British Citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future changes in the status of Northern Ireland"
This Agreement was endorsed by the overwhelming majority of people on the island - including 94% of those who voted in the Republic Of Ireland.
Should you wish to challenge my right to identify as Irish and British in any court of law, I think you'd find you'll have spent a lot of money needlesly.
You are very mistaken.
Deal with reality.
ah come on,Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
yeah he had a few good games, but he didnt exactly set the world alight, did he even get a game at the world cup
journey man player, good for the scottish league,
watched that free dvd last night.christ eddie mcoldrick used to get games for ireland! thats the team we had back then! still they (or paul mcgrath) did the business
[QUOTE=Merc67;563684][QUOTE=Not Brazil;563673]
I am a "Brit" born of Ireland.
Quote:
how is that?
you just woke up and decided to be British or are you of occupier blood?
i thought they went with the Ulster Scots identity thing these days:p
[QUOTE=bennocelt;564444][QUOTE=Merc67;563684]Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
they;ll create another one any minute now:D :rolleyes: fruitcakes..
re: No Brazil, do you think i'd allow some english beureaucrat to tell me what being Irish is?
because it's written on a piece of paper that people were 'sold' as being a step on the road to peace doesn't make it so.
you can live in cloud ****ing cuckoo land all you want and call it your reality but if you really think anyone 'irish' - not northern Irish - would 'want' to tbe British you're out there son.
you can be northern irish and british if you want. but youre not Irish. reality.
just because you;re here for a while doesnt make you Irish. you have never contributed to Ireland, to Irish culture, to Irishness as an identity. your people have taken away and tried to destroy it, how dare you try and claim it now AND Britishness... shame on you/
an insult to any irishman is to be called British. im sure you understand the reasons behind that.
again, hide behind a legislation that will be changed within a generation if you will. your the myopic one here and calling yourself Irish AND British is pure mischief intent to strengthn the unfortunate influence of britain on this island.
Merc67,
"re: No Brazil, do you think i'd allow some english beureaucrat to tell me what being Irish is?"
I think you'll find that the SDLP, Sinn Fein and the Republic Of Ireland Government are signatories to the Belfast Agreement.;)
"because it's written on a piece of paper that people were 'sold' as being a step on the road to peace doesn't make it so."
The people of this island endorsed it by democratically, and freely, expressing their will at the ballot box.
"you can live in cloud ****ing cuckoo land all you want and call it your reality but if you really think anyone 'irish' - not northern Irish - would 'want' to tbe British you're out there son."
The Agreement actually confirms that you are "out there" - son.
"you can be northern irish and british if you want. but youre not Irish. reality."
Read the Agreement. It's reality - it's Law.:eek:
"just because you;re here for a while doesnt make you Irish"
I have been here all my life. I suspect longer than you.
"you have never contributed to Ireland, to Irish culture, to Irishness as an identity. your people have taken away and tried to destroy it, how dare you try and claim it now AND Britishness... shame on you"
I have tried to destroy nothing, and express my Irishness on a daily basis.
"an insult to any irishman is to be called British."
On the contrary, this Irishman is quite happy to be called British.
"hide behind a legislation"
:eek:
"your the myopic one here"
I don't think so. I'm not the one telling other people what they are and what they're not.
"and calling yourself Irish AND British is pure mischief intent to strengthn the unfortunate influence of britain on this island"
It's a fact. A reality. You cannot deal with it. I am Irish and British - proudly both.
What are you going to do about this " unfortunate influence of Britain on this island"?
It isn't going away.
Nearly one million people on the island identify in some way as British - they are the people you claim you wish to be "united" with. How are you going to be reconciled with them?
I noticed you swerved the questions I put to you yesterday evening.
do you agree with every piece of legislation? lol, I doubt it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
legislation changes, don't worry, it was a means to an end, just out of interest are you and the unionists 'more' Irish now? lol its bull. how many others claim Irishness? and if and when the very few do isnt it as a secondary lower tag to their britishness. this is why its a ****ing insult you idiot.
'Irishness' is not someone that wants to be British. that's being a unionist; someone who was never from ireland and doesn't want to be. its an insult. you still cannot tell me how you are Irish apart from being born on the island of ireland. you are a planter, there's nothing irish about someone wanting to be british!
read this again....and tell me how you express your 'Irishness' :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Another reason you are not a real Irishman. but someone claiming it with an ulterior motive...
theyre irrelevant questions, that i may, if i have time, answer for your pleasure. but there really is little comparison. france has no claim or occupation of Canda:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
``
"do you agree with every piece of legislation? lol, I doubt it..."
I may not "agree" with every piece of legislation, but I respect the legislastion of the land.
This particular piece of legislation was endorsed by the overwhelming majority of people on the island who voted for the Agreement.
"legislation changes, don't worry, it was a means to an end"
I would confidently that the principle I quoted to you from the Agreement will not change. You had better start dealing with it.
"just out of interest are you and the unionists 'more' Irish now? lol its bull. how many others claim Irishness? and if and when the very few do isnt it as a secondary lower tag to their britishness. this is why its a ****ing insult you idiot"
Unionism is a political idealology.
I am "unionist" basically because I believe that me and my families interests are currently better served by Northern Ireland remaining within the United Kingdom.
I can be persuaded otherwise, but, I have to say, if attitudes like yours prevail on identity, I will be difficult to persuade.
Many "unionists" identify as solely British - as is their right - any many I know identify as British and Irish - as is their right also.
At the football yesterday, I suggested to a "unionist" friend, born like me in Belfast, that he was not Irish - he laughed loudly in my face.
"'Irishness' is not someone that wants to be British. that's being a unionist"
I am a "unionist" who is British and Irish.
"someone who was never from ireland and doesn't want to be"
I am from Ireland - born and bred in Belfast- and am very happy to be Irish (and British)
"its an insult. you still cannot tell me how you are Irish apart from being born on the island of ireland"
My birthright is all I need to be Irish.
"you are a planter"
:D
No, I'm not.
I was born here and I am staying here. This is my home.
Do you think that I don't belong here - that there is somewhere I should go?
"there's nothing irish about someone wanting to be british!"
I am British and Irish, so there's plenty Irish about it.
"read this again....and tell me how you express your 'Irishness'
Basically by existing, and not denouncing the fact that I am Irish.
"Another reason you are not a real Irishman. but someone claiming it with an ulterior motive..."
Just as "real" an Irishman as you. I have no "ulterior motive". I am proud of the Irish part of my identity.
"theyre irrelevant questions"
They're not. They're at the core of this very discussion.
Nearly one million people on the island identify in some way as British - they are the people you claim you wish to be "united" with. How are you going to be reconciled with them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc67
How you will feel to be "united" with a huge of number of people who have very different views from you (views which you clearly cannot tolerate), yet people with whom you yearn to be united...............this is a very relevant question.
I am no more upset when people mistake me as British than I am when mistaken for any other nationality.
Only catching the tail end of this but Not Brazil is certainly 'on the money' in this debate from what I have read.
Eight years ago you would be spitting fire over articles 2 & 3. Now you seem to quote them ad nauseum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
The point that you state that the Irish Football Association is somehow the legitimate footballing authority in the country (which would be true if it didn't bring sectarianism in e.g. the playing of football on sunday) while not acknowledging the people of the country the democratic wish to become independent and united. Two plebicites in Ireland were performed under the threat of either war or more war (the 1921 referendum on accepting the treaty and the 1998 GFA). The decision to scrap the Irish Free State and leave the commonwealth (by the blueshirts no less :eek:) were done with out the threat of violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
As an side, re the GFA, no such agreement would have been done without 25 years of violence. Even 5 years wasn't enough, hence the failure of the Sunningdale Agreement. You seem to love the GFA so much, you can thank the Provos for that one.
So why bring up rugby if you don't think my opinion is worth a sh*t? You want the expensive option of a new song that large numbers of people on BOTH communities will resent. I propose two songs that both sides will have to live with because that's what is represented by their team, be it the NI side, the Irish rugby side or 'if it was up to me', a public announcement that any player born in NI will be welcomed by the FAI, the 26C side aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
And if we're bringing in 'it's not up to you' then wise up and recognise the fact that players born in NI are the ones that decide who they play for, not you, the IFA or the FAI.
There's no doubting that. If you forgive me for mentioning your bogeymen, it's like talking about German 20C culture and history and ignoring the Nazis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
lopez,
"Eight years ago you would be spitting fire over articles 2 & 3. Now you seem to quote them ad nauseum"
Well, I have quoted them once - to negate your arguement.:) You do uphold the Constitution Of Ireland, don't you?
"The point that you state that the Irish Football Association is somehow the legitimate footballing authority in the country"
It is one of two "legitimate" football Associations on the island.
It is the oldest/original football Association on the island.
"(which would be true if it didn't bring sectarianism in e.g. the playing of football on sunday)"
A rule which I wish to see removed asap as it discriminates against me and about 95% of the rest of people in Northern Ireland who follow football.
Clubs should be free to choose when they play their matches, and those who choose not to attend on a Sunday should not be forced to attend.:)
A rule which is ignored by the IFA - when it suits.
"while not acknowledging the people of the country the democratic wish to become independent and united. Two plebicites in Ireland were performed under the threat of either war or more war (the 1921 referendum on accepting the treaty and the 1998 GFA). The decision to scrap the Irish Free State and leave the commonwealth (by the blueshirts no less :eek:) were done with out the threat of violence"
I wouldn't dispute any of that. I have no intention of getting into the rights and wrongs of it.
"As an side, re the GFA, no such agreement would have been done without 25 years of violence. Even 5 years wasn't enough, hence the failure of the Sunningdale Agreement. You seem to love the GFA so much, you can thank the Provos for that one."
However it came about - and we could probably discuss that for a very long time - it is reality. It is the will of the people of this island, democratically expressed at the ballot box.
"So why bring up rugby if you don't think my opinion is worth a sh*t?"
I respect your opinion, but think that it is wholly improbable on this issue. How do you think "The Sash" would be greeted at Lansdowne Road or Croke Park? We need to be realistic.
"You want the expensive option of a new song that large numbers of people on BOTH communities will resent."
Ireland's Call seems to command the respect of those in attendance - whether or not people like the tune.
"I propose two songs that both sides will have to live with because that's what is represented by their team, be it the NI side, the Irish rugby side or 'if it was up to me', a public announcement that any player born in NI will be welcomed by the FAI, the 26C side aswell."
I believe your proposal is highly unlikely to be implemented.
"And if we're bringing in 'it's not up to you' then wise up and recognise the fact that players born in NI are the ones that decide who they play for, not you, the IFA or the FAI."
I think if you peruse the thread, you will find that I have repeatedly stated that I broadly support the right of Northern Irish born players to elect to play for the Republic - if they so wish. It is the timing of such decisions that is my gripe. I would prefer if they did it sooner in their international careers, preferrably before they have represented Northern Ireland.
I agree also that the decision should be made without pressure being put on them by either Association, and would be rather irked if the FAI were found to be "tapping up" players in Northern Ireland - of course, there is no evidence of that being the case as yet.
Ultimately, it is FIFA rules which will dictate who can play for who.
I understand the complexities of identity in Northern Ireland.
"There's no doubting that. If you forgive me for mentioning your bogeymen, it's like talking about German 20C culture and history and ignoring the Nazis."
I am not a member of any of the Loyal Orders, so I would not consider them to be my "bogeymen".
The Republic Of Ireland has it's "bogeymen" too.
I would hold an opinion about the positive and negative aspects of the Loyal Orders - but that is irrelevant to this discussion.
Yes I do. And I have no problem with dual nationality. I think that dual nationality is dual citizenshipthat. I have no right to dispute anyone's view of their own identity, but if someone has just British citizenship born in Ireland I think that it is nationality - British, regionality - Irish. Any British I have is down to pure place of birth and where I grew up. Nationality and ethnicity are different, and this is relevant to this thread regarding these players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
The FAI seperated from the IFA (for sectarian reasons not through partition). It is the only sporting body that has. Only athletics (which I may be wrong was made up of three competing associations) split through partition - primarily as there is a UK team - and yet has less problem with athletes competing for the two countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
It's a strange stance I can't understand myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
As you can argue very eloquently on other matters, that's surprising.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
The issue of independence has not been addressed at the ballot box by the whole island.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
At rugby I think it would be respected. Was it EG that had a problem with the flags of some rugby fans? I've seen NI flags at Ireland rugby games. I've no problem with that. I'd like to hear if anyone else has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I've read a testiment on a previous thread of some golfing get together ending with songs from both 'traditions' including the sash. I also remember a report from a 1985 tour to Japan where Irish fans sang both such songs - including the sash - and it didn't end up with doors removed from hinges in hotels, and men smoking menacingly on pipes asking how many police are coming. Football? To be totally, totally, honest? I'm having a Martin Luther King moment here.
I think you're right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
As stated earlier, FIFA have recently allowed this situation. Previously, you could only play for a schools representative side of another country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
It's hard for the FAI not to 'tap up'. They see a player that's eligible, their coach calls him up. He either says yes please or no thanks. If there's a financial inducement, that's another thing. But I've never heard of David Beckham writing to the FA saying 'Please sir. Can I play for England?' The players are eligible, that's fine by me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I know you do. Unfortunately, there are many of your fellow supporters that don't. To this particular category there's a black and white approach. They are born in NI, that is the only country they play for (f*ck the political-minded glory hunters if they object to the GSTQ, No surrender, and my King Billy Scarve), the Republic of whatever is a foreign country, how dare the treacherous glory-hunters support/want to play for them (oh and why don't they want to play someone with my politics the bigoted f*ckers).Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Bogeyman as in Nazis? Yes the RoI has its bogeymen but they were proscribed, and their politcal leaders were banned from television and radio.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Yes: Please don't start on them.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Maybe Lopez is only "on holiday" in London...;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/52095/...nd_ali_g_show/
Btw, NB, does your mother come from Ireland?
http://www.newstatesman.com/200407190023
Bill Clinton "More Irish by the day".
Priceless!:D
[QUOTE=lopez;564900]
"I have no right to dispute anyone's view of their own identity"
I think that's enough said on that particular subject.
I concur 100% with that.
"The FAI seperated from the IFA (for sectarian reasons not through partition). It is the only sporting body that has."
We can engage in a long discussion about that if you like, but I think we will differ on why the split took place. I had occassion to research the subject recently, and I allow my guiding light on the subject to be "The Official History Of The FAI", written by Peter Byrne in 1996.
Of more relevance to this discussion is perhaps the future relationship between the FAI and IFA. One which I hope can continue be cordial, and one whereby the eligibility issues are finalised.
"As you can argue very eloquently on other matters, that's surprising."
The primary reason why I am loathe to nit pick over the past is that our shared past has brought nothing but conflict, disagreement and bitterness.
I have two children, born 1994 and 1999. Thankfully, they have been brought up in relatively peaceful times.
Rather than continue to let the past rob our children of a future, I would prefer to concentrate on a future whereby we can agree to live on this island together, in peace, based on mutual respect. None of us living today can change the past - we can shape a better future.
"The issue of independence has not been addressed at the ballot box by the whole island"
And, rightly or wrongly, nor will it be.
The constitutional question of Northern Ireland has been, de facto, settled in terms of how change can come about. This is fully recognised in the Constitution Of Ireland.
"At rugby I think it would be respected"
Maybe so - I'm happy enough with just "Ireland's Call" being played at ALL Ireland rugby internationals. It causes nobody any offence, unites and bonds players and supporters alike.
"It's hard for the FAI not to 'tap up'. They see a player that's eligible, their coach calls him up. He either says yes please or no thanks. If there's a financial inducement, that's another thing. But I've never heard of David Beckham writing to the FA saying 'Please sir. Can I play for England?' The players are eligible, that's fine by me."
It's a problematic area. I believe that the IFA and FAI, with guidance from FIFA, will resolve the situation to their mutual satisfaction.
Unfortunately, there are many of your fellow supporters that don't. To this particular category there's a black and white approach. They are born in NI, that is the only country they play for (f*ck the political-minded glory hunters if they object to the GSTQ, No surrender, and my King Billy Scarve), the Republic of whatever is a foreign country, how dare the treacherous glory-hunters support/want to play for them (oh and why don't they want to play someone with my politics the bigoted f*ckers)"
I know.
Indicative of living through conflict - "them and us". The sad legacy of history on this island.
We have also seen on this thread that such high emotions are not just the sole domain of some Northern Ireland fans.
We will never agree our past. Perhaps we can agree a future?
Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
where have I ever said i wanted to be 'united' with Britons?
i want Ireland, the island to be reunited, free from British influence; politically and militarily and symbolically.
of course there will be a new country, and discussions will follow, but the 'brits' are a minority on this island and should be reflected as such.
i want unity for the people in the north who are Irish, proud and do not try to cringingly tie themselves to another state, and cling to a union that most of the rest of the other nations have no love for anymore. its outdated and undemocratic.
I want the wrongs undone on this island and that means an end to british influence, full stop. people can leave if they dont like it - just as many in hong Kong did, im sure.
i wouldnt of course feed people's armoury by saying im intolerant and would have no respect for certain identities in the north, but they should be respected as minorities and nothing more.
it would, ironically, be a respect they never had for any citizen on this island...
"where have I ever said i wanted to be 'united' with Britons?"
"the 'brits' are a minority on this island and should be reflected as such"
"that means an end to british influence, full stop. people can leave if they dont like it"
"they should be respected as minorities and nothing more"
Akin to the worst excesses of the BNP and National Front.:eek:
So much for an "Ireland Of Equals".:eek:
So under a United ireland, what would you suggest doing with the majority of the c. 1 million people who have consciously taken British identity ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc67
If you don't want to be united with them - are you suggesting that the north should be ethnically cleansed ? :confused:
[QUOTE=Not Brazil;564939]I think we can look at the dates between the formation of the IFS and the formation of the FAI as a clue. Also the invitation to - or the 'tapping of' - the Falls & District League (was that the name?). And also the Liverpool conference of 1923 that forced the FAI to change its name to the FAIFS. Did like Peter Byrne's book particularly the story of the African fans of the Royal College of Surgeons being part responsible for 'the split.' I've also got Malcolm Brodie's two excellent, if slightly misnamed, histories of Irish football (very little outside of County Down and Antrim), although (if I remember correctly) Brodie's thesis is also that partition forced the split.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I think that the area will be only settled in the FAI's favour. Very few southern players want to play for the North. I'd put more money on Poland or England TBH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
One big difference with this site is that people are more inclined to stand up and disagree with others, and you can see this on this thread. Within the 40 odd pages on this theme on OWC there is little dissent - naitonalists excepted - from the above line. And before you and the monkey who has come over with you start suggesting I have some form of unhealthy fixation with this site, where else are we to guage unionist NI fans opinions? The IFA? The official NI programme? Marie Jones? This site isn't followfollow.com. It claims to be the moderate face of NI football - no 'superprods' etc. - but more than a small minority have replaced the Republic as their hate figure where a decade ago, taigbashing would be considered harmless fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
It is not just the IFA that risk losing players. All small FAs do. One can appreciate your dissapointment, but at least these players have a history of supporting the team. Do you really want consistency and the FAI to go after 'British' players, to prove they're not sectarian.Twelve years ago clubs were forcing young players to make decisions and opt for England at youth level, because of the UEFA 4 foreigners per team rule.
While the residents of OWC think of English born ROI players they cite Cascarino and Townsend, other players of two Irish parents and a strong Irish identity were pressurised into opting for England (this was before the present situation re changing national sides) and then discarded afterwards. I know this is true and a club that kept cropping up was QPR (Kevin Gallan one, but at least one other as well). Is that the sort of road you want the IFA to go down? Would you like the FAI to do likewise? Would you like a club like QPR to start hassling English born players qualified to play for NI to play for England in the knowledge that they will be forever 'cup-tied'?
lopez,
" I've also got Malcolm Brodie's two excellent, if slightly misnamed, histories of Irish football (very little outside of County Down and Antrim), although (if I remember correctly) Brodie's thesis is also that partition forced the split."
A great journalist is our Malcolm. Of particular interest to me concerning the history of the two Associations was the selection by the IFA of players from both jurisdictions post partition, and the period when that ceased.
"I think that the area will be only settled in the FAI's favour."
I'm prepared to "wait and see".
"One big difference with this site is that people are more inclined to stand up and disagree with others, and you can see this on this thread. Within the 40 odd pages on this theme on OWC there is little dissent - naitonalists excepted - from the above line"
We have our differences of opinion on OWC on a wide range of issues - anthem, flag etc.
"And before you and the monkey who has come over with you start suggesting I have some form of unhealthy fixation with this site, where else are we to guage unionist NI fans opinions?"
It's interesting that many of the "harder line" Northern Ireland fans detest OWC - would view it as a site moderated by "liberal, handringers".
The Northern Ireland section on the Irish League Forums would give you an alternative view of the opinions of Northern Ireland fans on a wide range of issues.
"It claims to be the moderate face of NI football - no 'superprods' etc. - but more than a small minority have replaced the Republic as their hate figure where a decade ago, taigbashing would be considered harmless fun."
I don't believe it has made any such claim to be "the moderate face of Northern Ireland fotball" - there is a wide range of opinions expressed.
I think many Northern Ireland fans would consider the ROI to be their main rivals - proximity etc. I appreciate that most ROI fans do not feel the same way.
Bit like Fulham considering Chelsea to be their rivals, but Chelsea wouldn't really have Fulham on the radar as rivals.
I have never engaged in "taigbashing". I have opinions, and I express them on discussion Boards. I view attacks, verbal or otherwise, on people solely on account of their religious beliefs to be abhorent. I am absolutely consistent on that.
It is not just the IFA that risk losing players. All small FAs do. One can appreciate your dissapointment, but at least these players have a history of supporting the team. Do you really want consistency and the FAI to go after 'British' players, to prove they're not sectarian.Twelve years ago clubs were forcing young players to make decisions and opt for England at youth level, because of the UEFA 4 foreigners per team rule.
"Is that the sort of road you want the IFA to go down? Would you like the FAI to do likewise? Would you like a club like QPR to start hassling English born players qualified to play for NI to play for England in the knowledge that they will be forever 'cup-tied'?"
I want the situation to be, as far as possible, that young players who have represented Northern Ireland at various levels, are not lost to us.
I am convinced that the FAI and IFA will iron this out, given our "special circumstances".
How it will iron out, I'm not sure - but my gut feeling is that something can be worked out that is mutually satisfactory to both Associations.
I am certainly not for "standing in the way" of any kid from Northern Ireland who wants to play for the ROI - the "if you don't play for us, you shouldn't play for anybody" mentality.
I have stated that any kid who doesn't really want to play for Northern Ireland isn't really an asset. Their are many who do want to play - from both communities.
I agree with the sentiment expressed earlier in the thread that the IFA should look harder at what they can do to keep kids through the ranks.
I belief it is healthy that the matter will now be aired.
"And before you and the monkey who has come over with you"
I don't know which "monkey" you are referring to.
Comments like that do you no favours - resorting to personal abuse will not further your, reasonably put, point of view.