Printable View
Cmon lad open your mincers,the standard on the pitch is nowhere near the English Championship,be realistic.Anyway, one thing I agree with you about is that going live(I go over to Elland Rd alot) is much better than shouting at the screen .So, thats the last I'll say on it as it's going a bit off topic for the thread titleQuote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
Doyle goes from Cork City and is the best player in the Championship, how is the standard that different if he was able to make the transition or jump (sic) look so easy. The evidence points that the top teams in the EL are at the level of the teams in the Championship in my view.
It looked like a 4-3-3 to me, but with Duff fairly wide. Reid wasn't playing right wing, he was the right hand side of three. Hard to be sure though!Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Certainly wasn't playing as a 3-4-3. Kilbane was clearly at left back the entire game up to when Harte came on.
41200 was announced at the game, and that may have been ticket sales rather than actual crowd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
As for the combined FAI Cup attendances, I'll guess 9000. We should have a competition. :D
Yeah, that's just laughable.Quote:
Unfortunately peoples perception is one thing due to listening to twits like Naill Quinn tell us what a player Reading made out of Kevin Doyle!!! (what a joke) and the reality is somewhat different.
That was an awful game. We should really be beating Chile at home, no doubt about it. However, there are more positives than negatives, I reckon.
What we really need is a defined formation, approach and first 11. Obviously, injuries prevent any team from fielding the same team constantly but we need to figure out the general shape that best suits us for the Euro qualifiers.
Kerr didn't really use the numerous friendlies to experiment with new players, instead choosing them to boost morale, maybe, by beating decent teams in meaningless games. As a result, we carried our obvious problems in midfield and upfront into the games that mattered, where we paid dearly for them. We never found out over the friendlies whether or not McGeady was an option on the wing or how Steven Reid could play in the centre.
At least Stan tried a few things last night and hopefully he keeps it up. We have to figure out by September what our team will look like. Charlton's team had its strength in its consistency - we generally knew our first 11 and they knew each other. At the moment, who is our right full? Who's our right winger? Who is our central midfield pairing? Who is left-full? Who should partner Dunne in defence? Who should play upfront with Keane? Is Doyle up to it? These are questions that need answers quickly. While last night was brutal, hopefully Stan was trying to answer those questions, it certainly seemed like it.
It was 3-4-3 for about the first 20 minutes or so, then Kilbane dropped back to play as an orthodox left-back.
Agree with whoever said it, it was a dumb experiment to go 3 at the back, we'd never play that formation v Germany. I felt sorry for Stephen Kelly making his debut in a defensive system that was unfamiliar to him and his team-mates. All our defenders have been raised on 4 at the back, play it every week, too risky to change the habits of a lifetime for international games.
Fair enough. He wasn't exactly fantastic after switching to a pure right back role either though.Quote:
Originally Posted by monutdfc
Yeah and how many failed Championship, League 1 and even League 2 players have gone the other way and been a success? Why does everything on this forum have to revert to an EL is better than Championship/League 1 debate? Its pure delusional nonsense to suggest that it's better than the Championship and I have seen plenty of matches in both.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
When the EL pushers come out with comments stating otherwise it really does show how biased and unrealistic their opinions are.
The fact is Jason Byrne was in the squad not on merit but only as a lame gesture. The majority of our best players get snatched by Premiership or Championship clubs when they are young so to suggest that what's left behind is better is absolute s**te. Take into account the number of foreign Internationals, former Internationals and former or up and coming (on loan) Premiership players that play in the Championship and any reasonable person must be able to see that your argument is pure b*llox. Finally look at the number of players that couldn't make the grade in England (many in lower leagues than the Championship) but have come back to the EL and been a success and that should drive the final nail into the coffin for your argument.
I expect a backlash from the EL lovers here but you haven't a leg to stand on so I don't give a balls. Turn another few threads into the EL is better than the Championship also while your at it.
Well, here's my tuppence worth on how we played and what who we should play vs Germany:
HOW WE PLAYED (IMO)
Given -Good
--
Kelly -Poor
Breen -Shakey
Dunne -Shakey
Kilbane -OK
--
Miller -Poor
S Reid -Poor, underhit passes all night
O'Shea -Poor, though did have a couple of good passes, will never be a dominant midfielder
Duff -Good, but doesn't cross soon enough
--
Keane -OK
Doyle -Good
Subs:
Harte -OK
Kavanagh -OK
McGeady -Very good, again doesn't cross soon enough
Jason Byrne -Good headers
Andy Reid -can see his class straight away
What we learnt:
-Kelly's not ready yet.
-Breen is on the way out -he's not getting better so it's time to blood a new lad e.g. Paddy McCarthy ( Leicester ).
-Steven Reid is best in Centre midfield
-Duff has no right foot, when he drags the ball back he refuses to cross with his right foot -this needs to be remedied / practised. I also think he is at his most effective when up front as he was at the World Cup in Japan.
-Kevin Doyle is a very good prospect and it's between him and Morrison as to who partners Keane.
-Jason Byrne is worth another look
My starting XI vs Holland:
Subs in parenthesis
GK Given
--
RB Carr
CB Dunne ( Paddy McCarthy )
CB O'Brien
LB Finnan
--
RW Duff
CM Steven Reid ( Kavanagh )
CM Andy Reid
LW McGeady
--
CF Keane
CF Doyle
I had thought of having Harte on the left side of midfield, after all, what do we want from that position ( if we put Duff up front )? Someone who can put in a good cross? I would think Harte can do that, as for all ye who criticize his defending then we needn't worry. He's also a good header of the ball so could nip in for a goal, then there's his free kicks too...........
Mind you I'd create a paradox in having Harte on the left wing and two smallies up front ( Duffer or Keane won't win any headers, neither will McGeady, Andy Reid or Steven Reid if they get forward! ). The fact is that Duff is at his most devastating for Ireland up front ( I've seen him marked out of a game too many times on the wing ) and we need our best players in their most effective positions. The other alternative is to have Duff on the RW and McGeady on the LW, then they can pull the ball back and cross on their strong foot and also cut inside and shoot on their strong foot too ( remember Kennedy's goal vs Yugoslavia? )
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
At the end of the day if people want Ireland to be regularly qualifying for the World Cup and the European Championship we need a strong League of Ireland. The dogs on the street know this. So I can't for the life of me understand why:
1. People in Dublin 12 travel over to see Leeds United on a regular basis and claim to be fans of Irish football.
2. People believe that LOI players shouldn't be considered for the national team.
3. People, Irish "football fans", mock the standard of league football in Ireland without ever attending a LOI match.
4. People benchmark British league football as the standard for the Irish national team.
5. People are experts in highlighting the failings of the International team but are unable to point out where Tolka Park is on a map.
No one said it was better - i was merely reacting to the stupid comment that the eL was "nowhere near" the CCC. Which is incorrect. And you really shouldent refer to people as "eL lovers" i dont consider myself an eL lover. Just a football fan that supports his local team thats all - if half the poeple that went last night supported thier local team i.e. had a real interest in irish football - then we wouldnt be having this debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Dreadful performance. It's very annoying to pay to watch people not give a $hit. I think the FAI would be well advised to not schedule matches for this time of year unless we've qualified for something.
O'Shea, Miller, Harte and Kelly were awful. Breen was bad too, Dunne was doing all the defending himself for most of the game with Given stopping whatever he couldn't manage.
I thought McGeady did very little with the ball. His runs looked good but he rarely got the ball into the box. The time he ran the ball out of play after trying to beat one man too many summed it up for me; not the finished article by any means.
Doyle did well up front, is he ahead of Morrison in the pecking order now? I think he offers more. Glancing at the game on TV after, Byrne had some good flick-ons; Keane could have scored from one. Reid did OK in the middle but looked completely lost at right-back. Had we no other options for that position?
Well they didn't look like they wanted Ireland to win anyway so maybe 'disinterested' is also apt!Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy
totally agree he was sh!t after he came off :DQuote:
Originally Posted by vega007
I don't think there has been enough said about Jason Byrne, pleased for him to get a decent enough run out time wise and his solid contribution in the game. We need a player like him on the bench. I wonder why he wasn't used in the last campaign instead of the Doc? Byrne has the ability to head the perfect knockdown, has the skill and muscle to bring the ball down, hold off his opponent and lay the ball off.
Stan made some reference to scope for improvement with his sharpness levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
I dont think I ever said it was better either. Also I have never really contributed to this debate as I dont have any natural team to support in the EL but go to a few different games around the city. So I would not consider myself as you put it an EL lover. Also where is the fact that he was not in the squad in merit. If its fact find the evidence of it been fact. Its your opinion which is fair enough but dont state it is as fact when its not possible to prove it.
The results in Europe suggest that the EL is improving and I agree in order to have a successful Irish team we have to have a successful league which comes from supporting with both money from the Government Fai and Private Sector and attendance by the Irish Public.
Spot on. Youngirish is another one who cant read. NOBODY here said it was better than the championship. I said it was on a par with the championship/league one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Jason Byrne's appearance was no "lame gesture". Even a well known ignoramus of league football here Mark Lawrenson said that he merited an appearance.
Stick to your own "delusional nonsense" and leave football talk to people who know about it.
KOH
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
So an ignoramus who knows nothing about EL football said he warranted a game and that's your reason for including him? Good one. As for getting evidence that he didn't merit inclusion who the f**k am I? Inspector Morse? Can you prove that Jupiter revolves around the sun. The theory of relativity.70% of US marriages end in divorce? Doubtful and even if you could why would you take the time to do it?
Sorry NY Hoop you specifically might not have said it was better (my post wasn't about you in particular but it's nice you feel included) but you've stated that you said it was the same which is also rubbish - see the earlier post for the relevant reasons.
Quick lads get on another thread there's an EL is better than Premiership/Championship/World Cup/Olympics/Grand National argument just waiting to happen.
On the standard of the eircom League debate, it's a difficult league to evaluate as there is now such a gap between the top clubs and the strugglers. Last Friday, I saw Drogheda thump Waterford 4-0 in one of the best performances I've seen by an Irish team recently. The pace, skill and physical power with which Drogheda played would, in my view, have been sufficient to beat many Championship teams. However, on the other hand, there is no way on this godly planet that the Blues could currently be described as on a par with any Championship club!!
I always think the best way to judge a league is by it's mid-table teams. For instance, you wouldn't judge Scotland on Celtic's standard or the Dutch league on PSV and Ajax. The quality of La Liga can be seen in that Depor, Atletico or Espanol would be stronger than Charlton, Aston Villa or Everton.
In my opinion, the four Irish clubs who will be competing in Europe this year have real quality and, together, are the best group we've sent into Europe in decades. Any of them could cut it in the Championship. Certain players from Cork, Derry, Drogheda and Shels have every right to be considered for the national squad. I thought Jason Gavin might get a call-up (to me, Breen's inclusion smacked of a personal favour from Staunton to put him in the shop window).
As I said, leagues should be judged by their mid-range teams and I'd see the likes of Pats and Bohs as being around the level of the lower half of League One.
As for Jason Byrne's performance, he did reasonably well and could be a squad option, but probably down the list as 6th or 7th choice striker. He definitely made an impact - winning a couple of headers and eager to show for the ball. I felt he was a bit slow to react to the play at times. A defender nipped in ahead of him for a ball he should have taken in around the halfway line and one pass flew out for a throw. He was entitled to his shot (if a little greedy) and though it was poorly-hit, it was better than 2 of Reid's. If Byrne was given an extended run in the squad, even the training would do him good and he could be a good addition. It's always good to have strikers who are used to hitting the target at whatever level.
you can pick several individual performances apart last night, but for me the more worrying thing was the lack of urgency from the off and throughout the game, arent these the lads who were meant to be all happy again after the rule-happy Kerr era? all happy and revved up to play for ireland again, i didnt see any of that at all from some of the senior lads.
they looked like men who just spent some time in the sun in portugal and were looking forward to some more time in the sun very soon, and werent arsed about the game at all
maybe stan is being too nice to them, i dont know. im sure he wanted to blood Dixon last night, cant see why he named him otherwise, but his boys had made such a pigsear of the evening it was'nt possible.
Just cos you say its "rubbish" doesnt make it so morse. You can start a thread on anything if it makes you feel better.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Is Kevin Doyle suddenly a better player after leaving cork?
KOH
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Dont state something as fact when its just an opinion. You reckon that it was just a token gesture that Byrne was called up thats fair enough as its your opinion. It cannot be called fact as there is no proof that it was the case.
Facts can be proved by hard evidence. Your point was pure opinion.
Also as I have said before that I dont normally get involved in the slagging of the EL or slagging of the bar stoolers debate as I say live and let live. But I do think its clear as the Waterford fan has pointed out that the top 4 clubs in the EL are strong due to professionalism and should produce a strong showing in Europe and are up to the standards of the Championship. Nobody said it was better than the Championship in this thread, so you are misquoting people here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
you sir are an idiot. your obviously a WUM due to the fact you obviously know how many EL fans post on here. there are so many comments on this thread alone designed just to **** off EL fans but yours was the one i decided to pick because you obviously have no clue about anything. to suggest that a player left in ireland that doesnt make it in england is ****e just doesnt make sense. jayo came on last night and if he was absolute ****e then that implies that o shea and kelly et al are even worse. which implies that theyre playing at an even lower level than the ****e EL. which as everyone well knows isnt true. Jayo, in twenty minutes performed better than John O'Shea has ever done in all of his games for Ireland. Basic logic will tell you that your argument is rubbish
It was Dublin 12 and yourself that started the eL debate by slagging it earlier on. It's only natural that people who really care about Football in this country would defend it.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
I would now like to quote NY hoop who said:
"Stick to your own "delusional nonsense" and leave football talk to people who know about it" - well said.
Exactly. His examples were utterly stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
also youngirish have you ever been to an EL game? or are you too busy trying to unwedge yourself from the sofa you've grown into after many years of throwing cans of beer at the TV, while thinking to yourself "even i could do better than that"?
The above posts just show that many of you (not all) are just a load of biased mongos who slate anyone who throws a spanner into your own little fantasy lands. I'm not surprised you disagree nor do I care. Just because 5 idiots agree on an idiotic principle doesn't make it any less stupid.
And I do know how many EL fans post on here (read my post count and come to a sensible conclusion) but some I'd imagine are more sensible than the fools above and I have no problem with them. Anyway I never said anything about the EL in my original posts on the match. One of the EL or nothing idiots brought it up.
Here let's put out a squad of all EL players all the way through the European Championship qualifying and I'm sure we'll blow the competition away just to keep you happy. Are any of you German or Czech by any chance?
Anyway I'm tired arguing the same recycled points with you over and over again. Yous are like some brainwashed cult that can't see past their own loony doctrine.
You must care if you keep replying.
Yours sincerely
Mongo
P.S The only idiot is you son.
KOH
Can people not just ignore WUMming fools?
i'd also like to add that the pitch was as usual, an absolute disgrace. its the same pitch as the chileans played on but that surface does no favours for any attractive football whatsoever
god almighty, where do any of us say that we believe in the EL or nothing or that we want a squad full of EL players? you slag us off then just make up stuff we never said. ffs, none of us would have any EL player in there above Duff, Keane, etc. Because theyre the best players on the team and they just happen to play in England. If a player is good enough to play for Ireland then they should do so. people who say players cant play for Ireland cause they dont play in England are idiots. if you think that all the best players in ireland play in england than ill suggest that you only ever watch english football and never give an opinion on the EL again. you say youve been to see EL matches but i very much doubt thats the truth
Listen up,I didn't slag off the EL,I gave an opinion based on my experiences and from talking to alot of people that used to go in the 70'S/80'S and 90'S and have given up,they all think the same as me.People can support what and who they want,I made my choice when I nailed my colours to the mast in 1970 and have stuck by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
You nailed your colours to the mast in 1970???????
don't you think it about time 36 years later to give it another chance!!!! It's no good talking to people find out for yourself.
And you did slag off the eL earlier by laughing at the fact that the eL is comparable to div 1/championship in england. Which i then responded to. but thats starting a bit of an who threw the first stone debate which is a bit ridiculous as well - sorry!
I think you are on the wrong thread entirely mate - you want one about the game last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by as_i_say
This is about EL V Championship etc.
Jason Byrne was entitled to his inclusion in the irish squad as maybe 5th forward. I don't see anyone else obvious to replace him.
Doyle was one of the best U21 players while at Cork City scoring close to goal in every second game closely behind Stephen Elliot. By his own admission he has changed much in the last year.
The eL has some very under-rated players but also has very little strength in depth. Cork City can beat the Swedish League winners 2 years in a row yet can't beat Bray & lose to Cobh Ramblers. I have no doubt a team of best 11 eL players would easily hold its own in the English Championship.
I think its fair to say Staunton will have difficultly coming up with 22 quality players in August & September. Numerous players from last night play with big clubs but were still sh!te in home game against 64th ranked team.
BTW most media comments on the eL related to the international team come from people with zero knowledge of the league here.
Indeed. I'm not even reading the sh ite talk about EL v whatever though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
sorry for going wildly off topic but i cant stand by while others slag off the eL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
There are others who obviously feel the same.
For what its worth on the game. I think people are being over critical of Staunton just as they praised him too much after the Sweden game. its a friendly we tried a few things we didnt play particularly well. That it - its a friendly, move on - i'll reserve my judgement for meaningful games.
That's it in a nutshell. Next!Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
I used to go the odd time but Im more interested in LUFC,and the people Im talking about used to be regulars but don't go anymore,I was interested as to why they have stopped going and it's for similar reasons to mine. I have taken my kids recently to a few EL games as well as trips to Leeds,I want to give them the option,if they follow EL fine,if they follow Leeds great,it's their choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
but how can they realistically support leeds? its a very well off person who can travel every second week to see a team en england play. the beauty of the EL is its here at home. its cheap and you dont have to travel on a plane to see a game. why someone would waste money travelling abroad to watch players like david healy and gary kelly is beyond me
Fair enough i suppose - I hope your kids become Shels/pats/bohs fans because when they get older i hope they spend thier money on Irish football and the game develops here. I hope they dont become LU fans as then they feed the money to english game, which we will then need to develop our young players - which eventually is going to become unviable. So get out and bring them chizzlers to richmond/tolka or even tallaght - Its the right thing to do man!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
No, you started this off by posting a stupidly aggressive post against the EL when there was no need, it was bordering on trolling. If you don't think the league is great then say so but why post a post if you "expect a backlash from the EL lovers"? I think it's pretty simply to put a realistic view on the Eircom league without a backlash from eircom league fans. I sensed bloody anger reading your posts that it really looks like you hate the league and that is obviously going to annoy others.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
BTW (to everyone) - Attack the post, not the poster. Branding someone an idiot or a fool is only going to destroy whatever argument you put forward.