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Great post DCFC Steve.
The myopic view of Irishness that some (on both sides) possess is a major hurdle that must be overcome if we are ever to have lasting and meaningful peace on this island.
PS. Hope the Candystripes finish off an excellent job in Europe.
Thanks for the info aboyut DC fans, Steve.
A Senor Lopez- creo que usted tiene el baton en la mierda :) (lo siento, mi espanol es muy mal. No pasaran!)
I'm laughing here at being accused of 'one-dimensional view of 'Irishness'' when you come up with two examples of your own. Religion and the place your mother dropped you. The second is simple. Being born in a stable doesn't make you automatically a horse. You're intelligent to know that one, or at least I thought so. The first is something that people usually accuse those that ran Stormont for 50 years. Does being Irish entail being Catholic aswell? Erm....no! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I really had to contain myself with this statement here. In fact it says something but I think David's argument about KAI being linked to some cr*appy Danish footballer from the seventies sounds more plausible. Where are these fantasy figures taken from? I'd agree with the bit about the United Ireland bit, being a narrow question in itself, but haven't you heard of, autonomy, confederacy, joint sovereignty, independence? I don't think this equates with your 'happy to remain under the control of Britain' bullsh*t. I'm sure if it were true that 51% of the Catholic population were, then the likes of the UUP elite wouldn't be getting a bit uncomfortable in their seats when the Reverend Smyth wanted the three other counties of Ulster incorporated into NI as a matter of party policy. However this is all irrelevant, since when has being a Catholic automatically equated with being Irish? By the way, in a poll I remember reading about taken around the time of that plebiscite in the early seventies, over NI's future, 6% of Protestants claimed to support a united Ireland. Roughly 60,000, if true, two thirds the membership of the Orange Order at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Anyway, thanks for answering for Not Brazil and the rest of the lads. Despite the odd nugget of boll*cks, it's still miles more articulate than any of them could offer. :D
All well and good, were we talking about Shergar. But we're not - we're talking about people.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Why is it so difficult to understand that someone can use the word 'Irish' to describe their place of origin, without it affecting or detracting from their own personal sense of nationality or identity ?:confused: Are people not allowed to define their own identity for themselves ?
Why does this create a problem for you ?
I think we need a link to that survey you quoted, Steve. If only to reassure Sr Lopez.
Lopez himself may wish to browse up thread. In which he'll see plenty of 'articulate' explanation why Not Brazil, say, is just as Irish as our compadre.
It's an expression, which seems to have gone over your head.:rolleyes: Think of this. People calling themselves British when they were born and often never left a geographical area that even they wouldn't consider a geographical part of Britain (i.e. Northern Ireland/O6C). :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
As I said, I couldn't care less what people thought they were from week to week. But I am talking about nationality here. Ireland is a nation - state. The fact that a part of it was denied entry into this state along undemocratic means doesn't deny this. Yes you can be (regionally) Irish and (nationality) British, just as you can be regionally Basque and Catalan but nationality be Spanish (the nearest example in Europe I can give to the multinational state of the UK). The funny thing is that all the time I've read forums on NI, I've never seen a SF voting, GAA playing, NI hating 'because they don't like Catholics at Windsor Park' Catholic reply 'but I'm also British.' That's the question I was initially asking.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Well seeing that Steve hasn't done you the honours, I'll provide you with one of the latest polls on the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2004/Polit.../NIRELAND.html
Only 24% were, to use Steve's 'happy to remain under the control of Britain' so he was talking cojones. That, as a ball park figure is just over twice the number of Protestants that want a united Ireland. Even here the question of 'Joint Authority' which the British government were offering the people of Gibraltar despite knowing it would get an overwhelming No but would possibly split the vote in NI, didn't get asked and might even reduce the absolute unionist vote even further.
What is more interesting is the vote for the 18-24 survey compared with those of 65+. There is huge fall in those wanting to remain part of the UK without a rise in those wanting join the republic. The desire for an independent state is now 22%.
It's a Quality of Life survey where every answer is tediously broken down into the finer details of religious affiliations etc.
Not much debate on the common interests.
Most people from both religions believe, that "strong trade unions are needed to protect employees' working conditions and wages"
that "Ordinary working people do not get their fair share of the nation's wealth"
"that It is the government's responsibility to provide a job for everyone who wants one"
"That It doesn't really matter which party is in power, in the end things go on much the same"
Seems normal enough to me.
I am very familiar with the expression, as famously (though incorrectly) ascribed to the Duke of Wellington. That doesn't change anything with regards my comments on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
So what would you describve the Falkland Islanders as then (no snide remarks please) ? They are British by nationality - even though most of them will never set foot in Britain ! Again - you're trying to overlap nationality and geography as if they were perfect replicas of each other. You're taking far too narrow an interpretation of nationalit - hence why it's confusing you.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Really ? So why all the gurning on here about Unionists having to check to describe themselves as both Irish and British ? If you don't care, why bring it up ?Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
The Republic of Ireland is the state, not 'Ireland'. There is an obvious difference. Also - I'm surprised to hear you desribe the ROI as a nation state - given that, as you recognise, a large chunk of the nation (geographically and population-wise) lies outside of the ROI. This is a statement of fact - not politics. The Basque Country 'nation' is split between France and Spain. If only the Spanish part went Independent, it would not compose the Basque nation - as a chunk of that nation would still be in France.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Sorry lopez - but I haven't got a clue what you're on about here. What question were you intiially supposedly asking - none of the above is a question ?? What have ardent Republicans got to do withe the rights or actions of Unionists in describing themselves as both British and Irish ?? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Apologies for needing to sleep between the hours of 2 am and 9am, and needing to work in the hours that followed. Note to self - must stock-up on some more of those Superman pills.....Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I'm not sure if you posted the wrong link by accident, but the above survey actually says the complete opposite to what you're suggesting ! Only 22% of total NI population wanted to reunify with the rest of Ireland, versus 59% looking to remain in the UK. The most recent results (the 2005 survey - conducted between Oct 2005 and Jan 2006, and results just released) showed a similar split : 23% for reunification, 58% for remaining in UK. The 2005 results are listed with Catholics split 50-50 between remaining in UK and unification - but their press releases made clear that the figure for untiy is actually less than 50%, as it was rounded up. These results have been pretty much consistent since the annual survey began in 1998. The survey is considered to have a low margin of error, given its relatively large sample size. Who's serving up the cojones now.....?Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
And I'd argue strongly that any 'joint-authority' question would have a greater negative impact upon the number in favour of reunification than on those for the status quo. Never in the history of Northern Ireland has joint authority been suggested by either side as a credible and aceptable solution. So why should it be asked in such a survey anyway ?
The results read to me as two to one in favour of reunification.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2005/Polit.../NIRELAND.html
If you cared to read the thread, I have articulated my position quite clearly...not that it requires much articulating, as I am Irish & British - err, simple as that!Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Now, if there are any "odd nuggets of ******" that you wish to take up with me, based on my previous posts, please feel free to do so.
Apologies - that was 50-50 split between unification and other options. As the press release clarified, it was in actual fact slightly less than 50% in favour of unification. And if we're being honest, Independence is not an option that would traditionally be considered a 'Nationalist'soption (I've yet to meet a nationalist who would support it, but have met 'unionists' who do), whilst even if 'other' did mean joint-administration, that still wouldn't be an outright rejection of the connection to Britain/UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Bottom line is that if we can't even get a majority of Catholics to want a united Ireland, then there's a very long road to travel people.....
Anyhoo - how does all this prevent unionists from describing themslves as Irish ??
I suppose half Irish is out of the question.
The closest question in the survey to the thread topic is this one
"Which of these best describes the way you think of yourself?"
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2005/Commu...s/NINATID.html
Only 5% of Protestants consider themselves Irish.
But of course no question about duality
What hole ? The survey stated that less than half the Catholics in NI want a United Ireland. I raiised it in the context of wondering why they don't have their 'right' to describe/consider themselves as Irish questioned by people like Lopez, just like unionists do. Where's the hole there ?Quote:
Originally Posted by totalfootball
But you're not the person who raised the topic out of the blue and has been claiming that they don't have that right.Quote:
Originally Posted by totalfootball
I'm wondering about the inconsistency of Unionists to eschew descriptions of Irishness (it's now called Ulster Unionism not Irish Unionism) with the tendency of some to claim Irishness when discussing sectarian matters on the football forums I've seen (ie. the subject of KAI not meaning 'Kill All Irish' because 'we're Irish ourselves').Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I don't think my interpretation of Ireland is inconsistent with the two former leaders of the SDLP and the one before them prior to his conversion on the road to the House of Lords (not sure of Durkin's view on the subject as NI doesn't get the same press these days). That view is essentially: Ireland was artificially divided, it never should have been, it was undemocratic to do so, and the desire to re-unite the country is a legitimate aspiration (that both Hume and Mallon aspired to) providing it is done without recourse to shoving a gun in people's faces. As the for the reublic tag, that's used solely as a way of trying to rubbish the aspiration of a united Ireland. France is officially called the Republic of France but no one ever refers to it as the Republic or the French Republic or 'la France'. Also you're getting mixed up with nationalities living in other nation-states. I believe that Northern nationalists are not living in another country and so that's why I'd claim Ireland as a nation-state. Kilburn in the seventies could be counted as part of the Nation, or the Liverpool constituency that voted for the IPP candidate TP O'Connor before partition, but I don't support either's annexation into an Irish state.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
See above re. KAI.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I think you need to stock up on some glasses. If someone said I was talking b*llocks I'd have quickly put up the survey in my original post.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I was talking about Catholics which was the subject you insisted on bringing in. I did make a mistake with the Protestant figure as I was still thinking of the 6% of an earlier poll I'd seen earlier from the seventies. Apologies for thatQuote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
You are...still! The poll was 50% for unification, 25% for remaining within the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
What part of 'Far be it for me to tell anyone what exactly their nationality is this week...' and 'As I said, I couldn't care less what people thought they were from week to week...' do you equate with claiming that I believe people have no choice in their own identity. One thing I've found about forums is that assuming people's views when they haven't put them down makes you look extremely foolish. You've made a pr*t of yourself with your insistence I equate nationalists with Catholicsm and then that 50% of Catholics are 'happy' with the status quo where your quoted opinion poll states only 25%. I'd take a deep breath before you make yourself looking even more ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
No inconsistencies on my part.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I'm Irish & British...whether it's on a football forum, at work, at home with my family, abroad etc.
That's what I am. It's not open for discussion.
Those who subscribe to a notion of "KAI" are offensive to me, as an Irishman.
If scratched, I think their beef is with Irish Republicanism (particularly militant republicanism), and not all Irish per se.
I do not really understand those born on the island of Ireland who denounce their Irishness - I suspect they simply associate "Irishness" nowadays with Republicanism.
It's sad that they have allowed republicans to rob them of part of their identity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I think most Linfield supporters would have a pretty high opinion of Derry City supporters and certainly nobody would blame them for our problems when we have visited there. Your support at Windsor Park was absolutely superb. The one problem I have with some Derry supporters is their apparent hatred for all things Irish League and their branding of those that do not agree with them as a bigot. For example I referred to your city as Londonderry on the Derry City and took an absolute hammering. Please note I did not and would not refer to your club using this name but I have always and will always refer to the city as Londonderry but have no problem whatsoever in others referring to it as Derry, that is their right. Another thing that I took a hammering over was saying that we had to go into another country to get home. The fact is, although I accept totally that some do not like the fact, that Donegal is in a different country to Londonderry but for saying this I got branded a bigot. On the Derry City forum I even got branded as a terrorist on the basis of who I was sat with at the game in the Brandywell. As I said a fantastic support but from quite a few there is an intolerance of others beliefs and it certainly does not strike me as a welcoming environment for Protestants.
David - I don't believe you're either naive or stupid enough to be surprised by the reaction your comments gained on the City website. Intentionally or otherwise, your comments were understandably viewed as provocative.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
You know full well that the name of our city is contentious. Referring to it as 'Londonderry' on the Derry City website was simply unnecessary, and form a Linfield fan will always be considered provocative. If most of the Protestant population of Northern Ireland can have no probelm referring to it as Derry - including organisations such as the Apprentice Boys of Derry, City of Derry Rugby Club and City of Derry Cricket Club - then I fail to see why it has to be such a burning issue for A Belfats man like you. Particularly on the Derry City website, where the reaction you received was entirely predictable. If it pains you that much to use the word 'Derry', you could've referred to 'the city' or 'the town' instead. For the record p- whilst I fully respect the right of someone from or living in the City or County of Derry/Londonderry to use either name to describe the location, I will not have anyone from outside the city tell me what my home town or county should be called. It's simply none of their business. Other Derry fans would be of a similar mindset. hence why there was no problems amongst Derry fans when referring to the exchange event Brandywell Pride ran with 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club. It's their city - they have the right to call it what they like. Outsiders looking to use the name of our city to make/score petty points are not so easily tolerated.
Your insistence on referring to a short deter through Donegal as 'going through a different country' was factually correct with regards political borders, but incorrect given that the island of Ireland is considered a 'country' for most non-political purposes (e.g. rugby, athletics, boxing). Regardless - it was completely unnecessary for you to use such langauge, and added nothing to the point you were making. Your insitence on referring to Donegal in such a way can therefore only be interpreted as deliberately bloody-minded/provocative.
With regards abuse for who you sat with at the game, that was unfortunate given the reality of post-troubles NI. But the man is a convisted loyalist terrorist, and given the WUMming you'd done through your choice of language in previous posts it wasn't a surprising retort, even if it was rather unfair.
In summary, I'm amazed that 5 months later you are still exhibiting surprise or 'hurt' at an entirely predictable response you received when using provocative language in a thoroughly unnecessary way - one that not only didn't add anything to your points, but actually detracted strongly from them. Whether or not you sought to be deliberately provocative is not important - especially as I don't for one minute believe you're so naive as to not have known in advance the impact of the language you chose. To then try and extrapulate conclusions from that with regards how welcomihng our club is towarsd members of the protestant community is quite frankly laughable. Tell that to high profile protestant Linfield and Derry City supporting individuals like 'Linfield Jambo' and 'The Shankhill Candystripe'/ALinfield.
David - I don't believe you're either naive or stupid enough to be surprised by the reaction your comments gained on the City website. Intentionally or otherwise, your comments were understandably viewed as provocative.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
You know full well that the name of our city is contentious. Referring to it as 'Londonderry' on the Derry City website was simply unnecessary, and form a Linfield fan will always be considered provocative. If most of the Protestant population of Northern Ireland can have no probelm referring to it as Derry - including organisations such as the Apprentice Boys of Derry, City of Derry Rugby Club and City of Derry Cricket Club - then I fail to see why it has to be such a burning issue for A Belfats man like you. Particularly on the Derry City website, where the reaction you received was entirely predictable. If it pains you that much to use the word 'Derry', you could've referred to 'the city' or 'the town' instead. For the record p- whilst I fully respect the right of someone from or living in the City or County of Derry/Londonderry to use either name to describe the location, I will not have anyone from outside the city tell me what my home town or county should be called. It's simply none of their business. Other Derry fans would be of a similar mindset. hence why there was no problems amongst Derry fans when referring to the exchange event Brandywell Pride ran with 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club. It's their city - they have the right to call it what they like. Outsiders looking to use the name of our city to make/score petty points are not so easily tolerated.
Your insistence on referring to a short deter through Donegal as 'going through a different country' was factually correct with regards political borders, but incorrect given that the island of Ireland is considered a 'country' for most non-political purposes (e.g. rugby, athletics, boxing). Regardless - it was completely unnecessary for you to use such langauge, and added nothing to the point you were making. Your insitence on referring to Donegal in such a way can therefore only be interpreted as deliberately bloody-minded/provocative.
With regards abuse for who you sat with at the game, that was unfortunate given the reality of post-troubles NI. But the man is a convisted loyalist terrorist, and given the WUMming you'd done through your choice of language in previous posts it wasn't a surprising retort, even if it was rather unfair.
In summary, I'm amazed that 5 months later you are still exhibiting surprise or 'hurt' at an entirely predictable response you received when using provocative language in a thoroughly unnecessary way - one that not only didn't add anything to your points, but actually detracted strongly from them. Whether or not you sought to be deliberately provocative is not important - especially as I don't for one minute believe you're so naive as to not have known in advance the impact of the language you chose. To then try and extrapulate conclusions from that with regards how welcomihng our club is towards members of the protestant community is quite frankly laughable. Tell that to high profile protestant Linfield and Derry City supporting individuals like 'Linfield Jambo' and 'The Shankhill Candystripe'/ALinfield.
I feel you have simply proved my point here. At no point am I disputing anyones right with regards to what they call their city but I have been brought up to refer to it as Londonderry and will continue to do so. As I said in my previous post you and others can call it what you like. Why should I sidestep the issue by referring to it as "your city" or something like that. Why can you simply not accept my views in the same way that I am willing to accept yours? This is the intolerance I refer to.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
The thing about another country was also not meant as a petty dig in any way. I was stating fact to show how ludicrous the whole situation was. As for a "short detour", it took us almost two hours to get back to cars and buses that were 5 minutes away from the ground, hardly a short detour.
As for the person seated beside me, yes he was a convicted loyalist paramilitary but unlike many others in this country he has served his sentence and has done a lot of excellent cross community work. The guy is a genuine football supporter and was there in that capacity and no other. He is in the same supporters' club as me which is how I have come to know him. I would be interested to see if you would brand someone sitting beside the MP for Mid Ulster in the same way as I understand he frequents your games yet Derry City supporters have seemingly no problem with that. A touch of hypocrisy?
To summarise in no way was I being provocative, if Derry City supporters cannot accept others beliefs then I would suggest it is they who have the problem and not me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
It's our city - not yours. Put simply, it's name has got feck all to do with you. We're the ones who have to live with it - not you.
This isn't intolerance - as no-one has a problem with the name of groups like 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club (interestingly - the penant they gave the Brandywell Pride Supporters Club is displayed on the wall of the DCFC Boardroom. Strange for a club you suggest is so unwelcoming to protestants or to those who want to use the name 'Londonderry'. ). Why - because it's their city also, and they therefore have the right to call it whatever the hell they like.
If you were so tolerant yourself you would respect the right of people who are from or live in a place to have a bit more of a right over it's name than a random outsider like you.
And for the record, the name of the city was democratically changed to Derry in 1984 anyway. Worry less about our home - whether we chose to call it Derry/Londoderry/Stroke City/Doire/The Town I love so Well/whatever, and a bit more about your own please.
Prior to 1984 what did you call the city? Whether I live there or not is immaterial, I am still entitled to refer to the city as I always have and always will. That is not me trying be offensive, it is simply the way it is. I am not trying to enforce my beliefs on you so why should you try to force yours on me? Whether I am from the city or not I am still at times going to have to refer to it, should I change what I have always called it just for you? That is intolerance. I fully accept your beliefs and respect them, please reciprocate that.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Would you respect the beliefs of some idiot 3rd-generation 'Oirish' man in a pub in Brooklyn to refer to Northern Ireland, the Northern Irish situation and the protestant community in whatever way he liked ? I suspect not - regardless of what you may respond. And primarily because it's got feck all to do with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Like I said - it's our city, not yours, so I won't have anyone tell me what my City should and shouldn't be called. Is that religious or cultural intolerance ? Certainly not. Is it intolerance of the views of those living outside my city who really don't give a feck about the place and therefore have no right to tell me or others from there what it should be called ? Hell yes....
And I was 11 years old when the name of the city was changed in 1984, and would have used a mixture of terms to describe the city before then - depending on the context. For example, my grandfather always wrote 'Londonderry', but called it 'Derry'. Just like many protestants in the city did and indeed still do. What's your point here ? Is the democratically-decided name of 'Derry' now null and void because some people didn't use the previous 'official' title.....? :confused:
Nowhere am I telling you what your city should or should not be called, I am simply telling you what I call it and people should accept my right to call it that. To give an example, a few seasons ago I wrote an article for the Institute programme when Linfield were visiting and I mentioned Linfield visiting Londonderry in the article. I was approached my a board member of Institute at the game and thanked for using the name Londonderry. You call it Derry, I accept totally your right to do so but please do me the courtesy of accepting my right to call it what I have always called it and the fact that I am not native to the city is completely immaterial. Are we now only allowed to refer to the city that we live in? Your failure to accept my right to use the term Londonderry is indicative of the intolerance shown by some Derry City supporters.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I think you'll find the fact that some of those people are Derry City Supporters is immaterial to the point. If some Linfield fans have criminal records - as do many in society - would it then be fair of me to talk about the criminal record of some Linfield fans ?Quote:
Originally Posted by David
It's all just a conspiracy against you anyway David....... :)
When you take into consideration that it was a Derry City website where this intolerance was displayed by Derry City supporters then surely it is reasonable enough to level the intolerance accusation against some Derry City supporters? Not quite sure who has mentioned any conspiracy by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
And likewsie we could level a claim of intolerance against you for coming into a site full of Derry fans and using language you knew would/could be considered provocative - regardless of whether or not you use it regularly. Surely rigidly sticking to use of your language when in the company of a much larger group who you know would find such language provocative is intolerant ? If you regularly used the word 'bender' or 'fag' to describe gay people, that wouldn't make it ok to go onto Gaydar and do so. Remember - the city has been officially called Derry for over 20 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
So we'll all be happy in our intolerance together then, eh David....?
What absolute nonsense. Why should I change how I normally refer to a city just because of the company that I am in? Why not just accept that a substantial number of people in this country refer to the second city as Londonderry? As for the official name changing, were those that referred to it as Derry prior to the name change being intolerant?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
You have also conveniently ignored all the other allegations on the Derry City site which shows even more intolerance but sure, anyone that from Northern Ireland that disagrees with a Derry City supporter is a bigot. :rolleyes:
With the risk of getting cyber stomped, as a 2nd generation half breed I know all this is NI stuff has f*ck all to do with me :rolleyes: but I think that there are worst things that one can do than misquote a place's name. I personally wouldn't call Steve's hometown ******derry but I can understand why David (still) does. In that other part of the world that I'm supposed to take no interest in, they've changed countless names. One at least because Fat Frank decided to wax his ego by changing the title (of his birthplace no less) to honour his gentle regime, to which the locals, once they were able to offer an opinion on the matter without risk of incarceration, wanted it removed. Others purely on linguistic lines. However, I'm personally not going to change calling cities by new names just because of the political climate. Bit more 'parity of esteem' please! Lecture over. ;)
I can totally live with that. When I originally used the name Londonderry it was not intended to cause offence and no real thought went into it, it is simply what I refer to that city as and if someone came onto a Linfield forum (or any other forum) and called it Derry I would have no problem with that whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
It's a pity that many Unionists or Protestants should find the Irish language offensive. They should know that many Scottish names are of Gaelic origin like Ian, Malcolm and Donald. Galloway a place where many of the Scottish settlers came from was a Gaelic speaking area until 1750.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Not quite sure what this has to do with the thread. Personally I do not find the Irish language offensive. If people want to learn it, that is up to them. Personally I don't see much point as the reason I would want to learn another language is so that I can converse with someone who I cannot already converse with and with a few exceptions that is not the case with Irish as the vast majority of Irish speakers also speak English but as I said, each to their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Ramone
Errrr - because that's what your favourite buzzword 'tolerance' often involves ????Quote:
Originally Posted by David
What next - 'why should I not be allowed to march through an area where I'm not wanted ? :rolleyes:
I suspect you would be one of those people who would bloody-mindedly defend their right to still call St Petersburg 'Leningrad', Sri Lanka 'Ceylon', and Beijing 'Peking'.... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Anyways - let's do a wee sense check on your self-proclaimed tolerance. With a location like Derry/Londonderry who's name is contentious, there are very many occasions when only one name can or is used - e.g. when the title of the city appears in print or on signs.
Despite the name of the city being democratically changed from 'Londonderry' to 'Derry' in 1984, numerous organisations that should have no political axe to grind on this matter still insist on using 'Londonderry'. I'm talking about BT, Northern Ireland Railways/Translink, the Roads Service etc. The PSNI also appear to insist on using 'Londonderry', even though they have numerous opportunities to alternate usage between the 2 names as the BBC does.
Given your deep hatred of intolerance, will you join with me in condemning organisations that, when forced to use only one name to denote the city, ignore the democratically expressed wishes of the population of Derry with regards the name they should use ? Or is it not intolerant for an official organisation to ignore the official name when it has to use only one title for the city ?
Like what.....?Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I think you'll find it's only idiots looking to stir things up that get that treatment. As I've said before, you'll find a number of 'out and proud' Linfield fans who are made more than welcome at the Brandywell on match days (last Thursday being a classic example).
Also - ask First Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club if they are of the same opinion as you with regards the intolerance of City fans
And then look in the mirror and ask yourself why is it only David that seems to feel/be made to feel that way...... :rolleyes:
Ask Linfield fans in general about how they feel about this and I can guarantee you that the majority will have opinions very similar to mine. I know Jim Rainey well and I know that he goes to games and fair play to him, that is his choice. Maybe it is an internet thing with City fans as I have already said I thought they were a superb advert for their club at Windsor Park. I was at your end of the ground that night selling programmes and bar one guy with a childish comment they were very friendly. On the internet though it is completely different. Check the Derry City forum in the wake of our last visit to the Brandywell to see intolerance to others opinion. Basically the attitude of some is that if you do not agree with Derry City supporters you are a bigot and I took great exception to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
If the name of the city was changed then I would have no problem whatsoever in agreeing with you that Derry should be used. Was the name of the city changed though or was it just the name of the council that was changed?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
The Council has sought independent legal advice on this, which has stated categorically that the decision by the elected representatives of the city to change the name of the Local Authority also carries with regards changing the name of the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by totalfootball
The Council is curreny taking legal action against the British government on this matter to have the situation recognised and addressed.
It is thoroughly absurd and undemocratic that a bit of paper issued in the 1600's should be deemed to over-rule the express wishes of the overwhelming majority of the population of Derry with regards what their own town is called. And then people wonder why it's such a sensitive issue..... :rolleyes:
What opinions ? What intolerance ? You're making uber-vague accusations here ! Smoke has more substance, ffs.....Quote:
Originally Posted by David
If you're saying it appears to be only an internet issue, then how can you claim that it's "Linfield fans in general" , when we both know most don't go near message boards ?? :rolleyes:
It probably is only an internet thing - one where people come on using language that, whether they intend to or not, is considered provocative, when there is absolutely no need to do so. Go onto the forum now and you'll see plenty of posts from 'Linfield Jambo' 'ALinfield', 'The Shankill Candystripe' - all being treated like any other poster. DCFC fans - both on and off the internet - also have good relations with Institute fans (if only the same could be said for the relationship a sizeable number of Linfield fans have to some other clubs....).
So I ask you again - why is it only the very, very odd Linfield fan on the Derry site who has had felt need to complain about the responses their posts have elicited ? Well, I wonder indeed....
P.S. If you know young Rainey so well, maybe you'd relaise his name is 'Sean', not Jim. Or are you indulging in another bit of name-changing there yourself..... :D
Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia, particularly when it comes to politicsQuote:
Originally Posted by totalfootball
With all due respect, I sincerely doubt Derry City Council would resort to the rather drastic and expensive measure of referal to the High Court on this issue if there was a very simple "Oh yeah !" alternative available....... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by totalfootball
If you don't throw a hissy-fit regarding the length of time it'll take me to dig out the information (wedding in Devon tomorrow, Stag weekend starting Friday, UEFA Cup game to go to next week etc etc) I'll come back to you with the full details of what the situation is in due course.
Meanwhile, this will do for starters : http://www.derrycity.gov.uk/Press%20...0406-court.htm Gives you a flavour for the kind of hoops you have to jump through to have a democratic decision recognised in Northern Ireland.....
I wasn't aware of that and neither at a guess would most of the people around Windsor park who all, like me, call him Jim.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
As for the reason there are no problems on the Derry City forum with the people you mention. That is quite simple really, it is because they do not disagree with the things said on there. Simply dare to disagree with some Derry City fans and you are branded a bigot and a terrorist and that is a fact, whether you like it or not.