Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
would ye's be so good as to pay it once and a while :rolleyes:
Printable View
Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
would ye's be so good as to pay it once and a while :rolleyes:
We don't know either. You've no chance of finding that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
wrong. Rovers never owed another league club a penny. Bohs/Pats/Shels/Morton stadium all of those debts were discharged in full.Quote:
they cheated others clubs along the way by getting out of their debt and starting a fresh when they built the debt up at other clubs expense
Nobody that was in the room at the time have said anything to the best of my knowledge!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Again if you went onto Shelsweb you would have read many threads by posters disgusted over this.
At least now some of you are beginning to deal with facts and I wont have to read another 7 pages of "head in sand" comments!!
I hate opening this back up but I know what you did was legal and wish you the best but I was of the opinion at the time that its ok to overspend and build up debts as long as you pay them off eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by green-blood
I just think what you did with examinership should have carried a punishment soemhwere in the FAI rule book but it didnt. If a club wants to overspend to avoid relegation and therefore send another club down I have no problem with it but thats on the basis they carry that debt forward and its with them into the following season.
Its a moral issue I have and probably doesnt need going over again!
I use the comparison as people are stating shels are overspending and therefore its a form of cheating and driving up wages, my answer to them is that its not cheating and its all legal as long as all debts are eventually paid.
Just a couple of points.
I am no financial expert, and know nothing about business. As far as I can glean, we pay money to the revenue. In much the same way as you don't pay your leccy until the final notice, so Shels have been leaving their repayments as long as possible. This has been fine up to now, but for some reason, the Taxman has decided to jump in ahead of the normal deadline (possible irked at being constantly made wait)
This will all be sorted out at the hearing in April - there were no false submissions made to the League, so no reason for deducting points etc.
As far as having blind faith in Ollie, well, I have faith in him. Without him, there'd probably be no Shels today, never mind being the most consistent team in the past ten years etc. Whereas he may get worked up emotionally about stuff, he has proved to be a great businessman. Doesn't mean my faith is blind, means I'm still concerned, but I'm not wetting myself about these events. Yet.
Is Ollie a liar? Ollie has given two quotes to the Ireland on Sunday. One in August stating he wrote a letter to the Revenue saying he would not be paying anymore. Another (last week) claiming he got the deadline wrong and is embarrassed.
Neither of these fit into alternate explanations about the taxman suddenly changing his mind or a cash flow crisis. So tell me, is he a liar and does any Shels fan care or acklowledge that he wrote to the Revenue to tell them that? And by that I don't mean to comment on Rovers' situation, I mean does any Shels fan wonder whether he carried out this threat and if this has lead to this situation?:confused:
I think thats a very optimistic way to view all this. Its clear Shels were already not paying the taxman which is why a repayment lan was negotiated. To continue your analogy its like having back ESB bills, so agree to a repayment plan, you've not defaulted on that plan so the ESB telling you pay up now or they'll cut you off.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sheliban
As you suggest i think the taxman has lost patience so will be hard to make deals in good faith in future.
If Accolade was to be closed i think this invalidates the contracts of current players so they become free agents. The Shels FC rights would be taken by the taxman and other creditors who could choose to sell off to new company (Ollie would not be allowed involvement in that). In such a scenario you would lose a lot of goodwill amoung the business community plus probably get points deduction like Rovers. Its not a decision clubs make lightly.
I want Shels to survive -- just.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohs til i die
The club is part and parcel of Irish football history, and any group of football devotees that has lasted so far in this GAA/EPL-saturated environment deserves a medal. We could debate at length Shels' and Ollie's services and disservices to football, but I don't think we'd get anywhere. Regardless of who it may be, the fact that a leading, top-flight club is so close to oblivion has to be of concern to anyone who loves Irish football. I'm sure the enemies of Irish football, like those who tried to get their hands on Tallaght, are delighted.
I actually find it hard to say that. As I mentioned before, sympathy doesn't come easy for those who used bogus financial muscle for squad-wrecking spending sprees so they could lord it over the rest. Losing Glen Crowe has cost BFC a lot. Taking him away from Bohs has cost Shels rather more.
Much as I want to them to survive, I certainly do not want them limping into Dalymount. Using Bohs to prop them up is, as the FAI now must have heard loud and clear from Bohs support, not an option.
No, obviously you can't default the taxman. I'd say he was just sounding off about the Rovers situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
I think the real danger is that other creditors will now see the headlines and get jumpy, and this might cause us problems. I imagine Ollie will be on the blower a lot this week!Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
the thing thats going round my head all weekend is just where is he gonna get the 300,000 needed before april 3rd?? am i right in saying he has to pay it off in full before the court date in order to avoid the hearing??
I agree with you there Higgins but I would make two exceptions. A club which builds up debts which it has no prospect of ever paying is cheating, like Rovers did but that's not the case for Shels.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
The other exception is building up non capital debts and paying for them by selling your ground. I know legally no other club or fan has an interest in Tolka but I do think that selling it to cover wage related debts is cheating the Irish sporting public.
Ollie did say he would pay the tax man no more money. My take on that was he was trying to force somebody to take notice and maybe he went through with this for a little while but he came around! I'm full sure he was made see the errors of his ways and this is not as a result. People have said shels agreed on a series of repayments in the last few months so this would have been well after his previous comments.
As for comparison with not paying your bills until final notice, that’s par for the course with Ollie from the little bit I know so in all honesty I would think he got caught out with revenue and his embarrassed comment is true.
Shels had the same amount of debt last week as they do now but the difference is they have a wind up order out for them.
My money would be on Ollie paying the debts due to his bluff being called and things go on as normal with a club who are professional on the pitch and amateur off it. Not a scenario I am overly happy with but Shels will be in business after April 3rd.
Also why do people with nothing interesting to say or have anything to add to this debate continue to post?
Can you not just set up an "Ollie Byrne ruined my life" thread and leave this one?
Its no different to the small businessman who remortages his house to keep his business going? so now nobody can sell their grounds? Did arsenal donate Highbury to cancer research!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Student Mullet
You point goes against everything all other people have posted. They all say that due to shels having an asset they cant go the rovers route and yet you say the complete opposite.
Just like any other shels threads really when posters contradict each other and yet still make shels out to be the bad guys.
Not a league medal though, i mean ... they did bottle it last year after all !! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BohDiddley
I agree with your sentiment but i think the debate is fairly reasonable here...Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Are there any Ollie Byrne support groups out there, we could set up a subforum ?? :eek: :pQuote:
Originally Posted by higgins
No, I've no problem with a club selling their ground if the money is reinvested in another ground or in another capital asset e.g. training facilities. I presume that's what arsenal are doing but I don't actually know anytthing about them. Closer to home, Harps and Drogheda are both doing this and I've no problem with that. (Funnily enough, Belfield Park is going towards cancer research!).Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
The difference, if news reports over the weekend are correct (and I don't know if they are) is that Shels are selling the ground to cover existing debts without any concrete plans for a new ground. It's using capital money for current expenditure which solves short term problems but leaves you worse off in the long run. Basically the sporting public has lost a city centre stadium and gained ten years of success for one of our clubs. I don't consider that to be a good swap.
I didn't say that Shels can go down the Rovers route so I don't think I contradicted anyone there but, on the general point, we're all seperate people here so there will be contradictions. Non-Shels fans aren't one homogenous group.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Quote:
Originally Posted by northside hoop
And here we have the problem, clubs to gain a licence i think should have to publicly declare their accounts, clubs unable to do this or who are found to have misled the league should be banned from the league for a year
I know your not having a go at Harps Macy but in fairness the difference between us and others at the minute is that we learned from our mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
We came up in '95 and spent silly money on players to acheve a 4th place finish and a cup final defeat. We went back down in debt to the neck and rebuilt from scratch - with NO help from the FAI or eircom LEague to assist us in brokering deals with the tax man. We got our affairs in order, were the first club in the country to have a current tax clearance cert (several years ago when most clubs didn't know what a TCC was), have paid our tax & PRSI monthly and on time for years now, have cleared most of the back tax with the remainder being indefinately frozen pending our continued good behaviour, produce audited accounts within a month of the year end etc. (Won't go on or I'll start to sound like some Rovers fans, who having discovered the virtues of this kind of stuff very recently now think they invented it :D )
We came back up last year and unfortunately found that the Premier division had gotten ten times worse, that clubs were spending crazy budgets on wages and doing exactly what we did the last time only in multiples. We were on the wrong side of a very un-level playing field. But not many people would have listened if you'd made this case before this Shels affair has brought some of the reality to light.
The whole house of cards is ready to come tumbling down, and as you say some clubs seem to be getting the message and cutting budgets to suit their incomings (a bold departure for Irish football) however its a long way to go, and the dodgy dealings regarding tax and PRSI on players wages that have been widespread are what will really threaten the existance of some clubs when the taxman comes looking for his lost loot.
I really think that when this era of domestic football is being recalled in 10 or 20 years time we'll not be marvelling at the progress made by full time clubs, it will be recalled as the period where spending went crazy, financial responsability went out the window and several clubs went to the wall. Hopefully the latter will be averted but its a bleak outlook for many at the minute.
Excellent post.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohDiddley
I certainly hope Shels do survive.
Though hopefully they will continue without Ollie, who for all his love of the club is a embarresment to the league as a whole.
It's quite likely that Shels will make an arrangement with the Revenue either before or after April 3rd. It will probably involve making a lump sum payment and monthly payments to clear the rest over X years. PLUS keeping future payments up to date.
If the Revenue have their info right they'll have their eyes on Shels CL money (€200,000?)from the 05/06 season (isn't this only paid to clubs after the final) plus their Setanta Cup money (€40,000?).
No matter what the future doesn't look great for Shels with the Tolka lease sold and Bohs now likely to run a mile from ground sharing.
A points deduction is not definite though, unless their licence application was dodgy in some way. Owing money to the Revenue isn't grouns for points deduction, especially if you come to an agreement with them to pay.
While there may be CL and Setanta money etc coming to Shels its still a strange time of year to hit trouble. Season ticket money, sponsor money and lots of other stuff comes in at the very start of the season - hence most clubs only hit bother later in the season when all this is used and gates etc aren't covering the shortfall. I'm guessing that Shels problems came during the off-season when income is minimal, and it could well be that the cash flow has since then changed for the better due to the new season. However if Shels are continuing to spend way beyond their means it could be that surviving this winding up order (and they most probably will) might only be shunting the problem further down the line- plus Shels absolutely must keep their taxes up to date from now on as well as paying back the debts already accumulated. To me it seems there must be serious cutbacks at Shels sooner rather than later, unless they really plan to sell their main asset to cover current expenditure (they may be forced to I guess) but to make the decision without being forced would be one of the all time stupid decisions in Irish football history, and as we all know that's a pretty big statement.
Problem is, that's what Shels have in place already, according to reports (21 monthly payments @ E12k each). The Revenue aren't going to keep making the same arrangement if it keeps getting broken. They're going to cut their losses, put the company into liquidation and hope to get some of their money at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by paudie
I doubt it Pineapple, Shels problems are liquidity, not solvency. The Revenue will get all their money and don't need to cut their losses.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Well they cut their losses with Rovers.
For me I don't want Shels to go under. I would be very happy with a lot of pain for them though. I have no problem sounding bitter about this, but what has been said already regarding their dismantling of a successful Bohs side with money that they didn't really have - as proved here - was vindictive and spiteful. I would assume that the money Oily is gathering to pay the tax man presently is money that Shels need either from the sale of their lease and/or deferred wages (this is only specultation), but it has to come from somewhere. I seriously doubt that Oily has merely 'forgotten the dates' or whatever excuse he's used, but I have no doubt that Oily has more than enough schemes tucked inside is y-fronts to pull Shels out of this.
In fairness, I'm not sure Bohs really had the money to pay that team either!Quote:
what has been said already regarding their dismantling of a successful Bohs side with money that they didn't really have
And you know I've been vocal in support of that stance the whole time, and the same with Rovers new regime. I really hope that's the way we're heading in Longford too, not before time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_T
But it's this arrangement that Shels appear to be defaulting on - if the timescale compared to the other Dublin clubs is to be believed?Quote:
Originally Posted by paudie
Edit - didn't see Pineapple's response, basically the same point.
I think it's obvious how this is going to end. Shels will use whatever money they have from leaving Tolka to pay the Revenue and then the FAI will arrange for them to have a half share of Dalymount.
Yes and to be fair to you, Bohs started down this very same road. It still doesn't take from the fact that players we had were offered renewals to their contracts which were accepted in some cases and then mysteriously rejected by Shels bound players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galway Harps
Although we seem to be slightly more prudent when it comes to our expenditure nowadays, we have a had a big wake up call in the last two years and it's good to see a majority of the supporters accept the fact that we cannot hand out the ridiculous contracts now we had been handing out. This is not to say that I think we are getting value for the large amount of money we are currently spending on a squad that has brought us no points and no goals so far this season.
Where I am slightly smug with relation to Shels, it's because I hate Oily Byrne. He has always been the first one to throw a dig in when any other team was down. What goes around comes around and it's nice to see Oily squirm for a bit.
holy ****...talk about putting a girl off her brekkie.Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesThompson
I Didn't know that Shels already had a monthly payment scheme already in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
However if Ollie can convince them that the missed payment was a one off they will probably go into a new payment arrangment with him.
Probably with larger monthly payments and/or a big lump sum payment to start with.
As I said above the Revenue may like the look of the CL and setanta money due to Shels shortly.
The fact that Shels liquidity problems emerge at the same time as the FAI are pushing for the Dalymount groundshare is a huge coincidence, don't you think?
And they don't own Tolka Park, do they? That'd mean that their main asset would be their staff then so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galway Harps
Any latest from Drumcondra on this, or has Ollie told ye not to say anything?
This is a source of sheer embarrassment for the FAI. Delaney was pushing Shels into Dalyer as the stronger team on and off the pitch. Now after all the positive publicity afforded to Shels, it's blown up in Delaney's face as Ollie's business practices are exposed and the fraudulent nature of the Shels operation is finally uncovered.Quote:
Originally Posted by paudie
The FAI did not plan it this way and now it becomes obvious to the world and his dog that Bohs do not need to be bailed out by Shels and the FAI mercifully stealing half our stadium.
BTW, watching eL Weekly last night and I'd have been amazed if there were even 1,000 of the mugs in Tolka for the Longford game. I suspect Shels' attendances last term were bumped slightly to legitimise the money they were spending by giving the impression of a higher income.
There main asset is their lease on Tolka Park. Depending on what story you read it is worth anything between €10m - €30m to them.
The statement they said was going to be released on Friday must be next Friday so. You'd think that a couple of days would be enough to make some story up though.
I have to say some shels fans view on this is amazing and the amount of times they have tried to change subjects and go off thread is priceless. (here re attndences and on shels wed going on about mario rosenstocks impression of Jose Mourihno).
Also some of them are deflecting away by bringing up our examinership.
To me its this simple. Shels/Ollie(he is shels AFAIK)/Accolade got the tax cleareance cert on the basis of an agreement with the revenue in relation to payment of taxes due from previoue periods. If he didnt get this TCC then Shels/Ollie/Accolade wouldnt have got the licence. Since now SHels/Ollie/Accolade are being taken to court by the revenue on a winding up order as they have renaged on this agreement then IMO the tax clearence cert should become invalid thus meaning a breach of licencing rules and a punishment should ensue.
in a way I hope shels get out of this mess from a footballing club viewpoint as my mams family were huge shels people down through the years but in saying that they shouldnt be allowed get off scott free.
No one has mentioned how shels players must be feeling. I know if my job werent paying my taxes id be worried
KOH
JUZ
Just a point regarding liocensing which is very pertinent to the Shels affair and Juz's post above.
FAI Licenses are being handled very differently this year, with clubs having to provide monthly returns of their income and expenditure (and even explain any major deviation from their original budget), progress on Infrastruture Development Plans and other information each month.
The monthly reviews and progress monitoring can result in fresh sanctions each month. Clubs may be fined for example if they have not carried out (by a deadline set down in the original license grant) infrastructure improvements on Category A items which they were told to do when the license was awarded. Ongoing failure to comply with conditions of the license such as fixing minor things in the ground, will result in further sanction.
Club licenses are effectively reviewed every month so if Shels lose their TCC indefinately they very definately would be subject to sanction under licensing.
I thought I heard somewhere there was a meeting of the First Instance Committee scheduled for last night (don't know if that's the name of the body?)
Sorry about this but who or what figure was bumped up? and why does it matter in this thread!!Quote:
BTW, watching eL Weekly last night and I'd have been amazed if there were even 1,000 of the mugs in Tolka for the Longford game. I suspect Shels' attendances last term were bumped slightly to legitimise the money they were spending by giving the impression of a higher income.
Who runs the thread on crowd numbers?
Go post there and you will see the figure quoted by shels fans have been always fair in my opinion
On the Longford game 1000 is well above what was there...
St Patricks night ?????? What were they thinking
500 would be closer!