I think that's the nub of the issue. I would have the right to free speech above keeping the peace. Both sides of the argument are valid though and not hypocritical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
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I think that's the nub of the issue. I would have the right to free speech above keeping the peace. Both sides of the argument are valid though and not hypocritical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
guy's the issue is being fudged here. The right to free speach is one thing the right to protest another, and the right to organise a march that was designed to be controversial offensive and to provoke a reaction is an entirely different kettle of fish. there could be no winners on saturday. The Scum of this city, The government and the gardai all let us down badly. The march should not have ben allowed for the reasons stated above. The Scum should never have got the opportunity to wreak havoc in the manner in which they did and the Gardai should have been better prepared there was wrong on all sides and there is no justification for any of it
Block G, you can't work under that frame of mind. If you ban something because you know people will be intolerant towards it then you're giving into a form of bullying which is again crapping on our civil liberties. The government can't just submit to the will of implicit threats. Where the authorities fell down was underestimation of the size of the counter protest.
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Originally Posted by Poor Student
I understand your point of view. but I think many posters on here are confusing love ulster with the Orange order particularly those mentioning Republican rallies in britain. I dont think a republican rally in warrington in which marchers are carrying plancards with young matthew parry on them would pass off peacefully
or similar in Birmingham or guildford in which marchers carried placards of the perpetrators of the pub bombings. It is the charge of any government to protect its citizens something they failed to do on saturday.what about the civil liberties of innocent bystanders or shop owners do these come secondary to a loyalist hate group?
The picture of your man is was an unconfirmed rumour, no? Again Block G we boil back down to the point, if someone sounds out enough noises that citizens are going to get hurt do you back down from democracy? If there was to be a march for the right to full gay marriage tomorrow and I intimated that I would disrupt it by any means necessary then should the government give into my bullying and stop the democratic process? Intolerant bullies should not be allowed to kill the democratic process. It makes me sick to the core that such violence should explode onto our streets due to people refusing to accept the democratic process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
I Think you are missing the point I'm trying to make. A march for Gay marraige would not have at its a core an intention to offend and enflame people although it may do both it would not be the sole purpose of the march. IMHO the sole purpose of the love ulster march was to provoke such a reaction as we saw on saturday and regretably the mindless goons that ran amok could not see past their tiochfaidh Ar La mentality to realise that they were being used to further the cause of this loyalist hate group.
Oh, so that's what you meant. It may well have been the pretext Block G and my personal opinion is that Donaldson would be not too disappointed at what happened yesterday, but they were well within their rights to do it given permission by our democratically elected government.
You also have to ask, why are we producing such mindless goons? Who or what is responsible for it? Do you mean the pure criminal knackers or the tiocfaidh ár lá types? Is it time the educational system took a bit of emphasis off the whole 800 hundred years of opression riff?
On Questions and Answers tonight, an invitation has been extended to FAIR by the panelists to come back down to Dublin and have their march. Jeffrey Donaldson has expressed some reservations towards it.
Well if the panelist want it, thats alright then...
I would hope that all those convicted of involvement in the riots are jailed, and when released barred from all football grounds be it soccer, rugby or gaa. What would those morons have done if they had been at the English game in Lansdowne??? Who really gives a **** if some loyalists want to walk down oconnell street roaring and shouting. If they were just let walk down and ignored or even applauded they would have gone home feeling like idiots after failing in their attempt to provoke violence. Yes they came intent on causing violence and mindless gob****es responded by attacking our police force, robbing our shops, burning our cars and terrorising our citizens and tourists. Meanwhile the love ulster brigade were having a great laugh.
The €64 million question:
I'd love to know how some people are trying to "understand" the violence and picking on those who planned it instead based on it shouldn't have been allowed in the first place. I didn't know democratic decisions were ever based on a "they started it first" mentality. Our democratically elected Government made a democratic decision to allow a march on democratic grounds through our city, so what is the response? To throw missiles of their own city at their own police to teach their own Government a lesson perhaps?:rolleyes: No sane Government or even our own one for that matter( ;) ) will listen to those who throw their fists around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Mindless goons is certainly the term I have for those on Saturday who couldn't accept the democratic decision by our democratic Government to allow a march and threw their toys out of their prams again in such a childish manner as "well if I don't get my way democratically, I'll get it by force instead" - the thought processes of brutes, criminals and childish bullies and I for one will not be bullied into thinking that episode on Saturday was even remotely justified or anyone else's fault that the thugs who did it.
It's all too easy to come out with the anti-Gardaí, anti-McDowell usual rubbish for such events......this for me was the back breaking straw so to speak. Enough is enough - time to tackle the idiots at their level.
Solve Poor Student's questions, we go much further to eradicating the disease than kicking a few people out of their state-paid Mercs.......again.
Absolutley Not. Those who forget their history are destined to repeat it. But i do think more enphasis should be put on the last decade and a half of our history tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Let's go back to the root of the thing here. Orange marches are DESIGNED to be provocative. Case in point: Drumcree, where there's a perfectly non-contentious route available but the Orangemen refuse to avail of it, on the surface because it's not their "traditional route" but in reality cos there's no fun having an Orange march if a few fenian noses can't be rubbed in the dirt along the way.
I posted these quotes way back in this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belfast Riots Commission, 1857 if you don't mind
Not a lot has changed in Orangeism since the 19th Century. Saturday's march was equally intended to be provocative. On one level, O'Connell St reverts to being "the queen's highway". Or, on a different level, they get to flaunt pictures of one of the perpetrators of the Dublin-Monaghan bombings and dress him up as a "victim".Quote:
Originally Posted by Belfast Riots Commission, 1864
I can understand a level of repugnance at such people being let march in Dublin. At one level, that was what the RSF counter-demonstration was all about - pointing out the hypocrisy of commemorating as a "victim" someone who himself consciously set about creating actual victims.
People are banging on about free speech and how the loyalists should have been let march. At one level, that's justified - except in the case of proven fascists (in the political sense, rather than the pejorative sense), I'm all for free speech - and I don't consider FAIR / Love Ulster to be political fascists. But the flip side of free speech is the right to protest at something you find offensive.
However, I'm not naieve enough to think that what happened on Saturday was entirely motivated by some kind of righteous political anger. It wasn't. It may have had political protest as a seed bed but it was hijacked by opportunistic boneheads who used the occasion to vent their own disaffection or alienation from the public face of this state. Riots aren't planned - they're spontaneous opportunities that are seized upon by whoever happens to be in the vicinity with a mind to violently express their hostility to the status quo. Saturday was no exception.
Put it this way: Love Ulster marchers don't drive Dublin-registered beamers. But it was Dublin-registered cars that were vandalised, robbed and burnt. They were attacked, not for being Orangemen's cars, but for being symbolic of everything the perpetrators may aspire to but will probably never achieve - money, status, prestige, whatever.
What started off as a politically-motivated counter-demonstration to an intensely provocative political march rapidly degenerated into a more generalised free-for-all. The rioters simply took advantage of the usual cack-handed policing of public events - be they sporting or political - in this country.
The way Saurday descended into mayhem showed an appalling lack of foresight on the part of the authorities. They should've seen it coming but they didn't. Whether that was a deliberate oversight, or simply down to congenital stupidity, is another argument.
Does Dublin need a parades commission in light of this past weekend.. the Reclaim the Streets protest etc. ?
No. Two in a few years does not need more tax money spent on it. What it needs is a strong Dept. of Justice
The march was not an Orange Parade. It was a legal protest that the irish authorities knew about well in advance. They could easily have choosen a route that did not go through a building site.
If anyone had proof that an inflamatory picture was to be displayed please post it here otherwise stop mentioning rumours (see forum rules).
I fail to understand how anyone could be offended by the unionist protest on saturday. Please explain this to me as i do not understand.
:confused:
Good to see Donaldson and his mates not getting any joy with the the Q & A audience. Despite his bleating about victims and poor old Unionists and Bowman's softly softly approach, the audience didn't fall for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderblaster
The only person to get applause was Susan McKay when she mentioned Drumcree. The very strong feeling I'm getting from talking to lots of people fronm different backgrounds and of different ages is that Dublin people did not want this march. We were never asked or consulted and mayhem ensued.
McDowell and the media have called this one wrong - just look at today's Irish Times, blaming the Ultras for Saturday's trouble. :rolleyes:
KOH
That shows up Dublin people to be unaccomadating bunch. If you not able to accomadate a victims protest then how can you operate a United Irealnd with 1 million unionists? I disagree anyway as most people don't see what the fuss is & acknowledge the scumbags don't represent anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
I don't want RSF, or various religious nutters gathering outside the GPO whenever they fill the need to rant their poison. I don't feel it gives me the right to riot and loot.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
How many protesters out of the population of Dublin? Most people from Dublin, and the rest of Ireland, really didn't give that much of shít about the march going ahead, and I dare say the vast majority would've preferred that it passed off peacefully and they all fooked off with nothing to make political capital out of.
It wasn't a victims march. No amount of spin can change that. It was a deliberately provocative quasi-paramilitary Loyalist march through our main thouroughfare, yards from where dozens of people were murdered by these people's fellow travellers.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Bear in mind that Love Ulster marches are banned from Belfast City Centre by the PSNI and Belfast City Council. There's a reason for that.
KOH
And read jebus posts, it wasn't purely Dublin folk there.
bTW Pete the link to the photo carrying story is on this thread. Organiser said "he couldn't guarentee" it wouldn't be there. Obvious politik speak for "damn right it would be there."
So let me get this straight. The validity of someone's views, and the strength of the arguement they present to support those views, is based NOT upon the quality of the opinions they present, the evidence they provide to support them, and thereby the overall strength of their arguement - but has more to do with where they are geographically located at the particular time that they make that arguement ?? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
So the arguements of an uninformed idiot based in Dublin giving a factless rant has more validity than my own arguements will ever have - no matter how strongly I present my arguement, and no matter how incontravertible the facts are upon which it is based - purely because I happen to be based in London for this stage of my life ? You might want to take a minute to read through this again.
I am Irish born and bred. Like millions of fellow Irish people have done for centuries, I left Ireland at the age of 19 - and since then have lived in various places throughout the world. Throughout my years of 'exile', however - I have kept myself incredibly well-informed and up-to-date on Irish affairs. My personal book collection would put the 'Irish History and Current Affairs' section of any Easons book shop to shame. I read a number of Irish newspapers (Derry Journal, Derry News, Irish Indo, Irish Times) each and every single week. I receive ALL Irish TV channels in London, and watch them daily. Most of my core group of friends in London are primarily from Ireland - north and south. All but one member of my family still lives in Ireland, and I also make very regular vists back to the country as well (5 times in the last 5 months, for example - visiting Derry, Donegal, Dublin, Belfast and Cork). Yet despite all of this, my opinions on Ireland are invalidated by the fact that I currently live in London. They're much less valid than any ill-informed Irish-based idiot who never picks up a paper, watches nothing other than Celebrity Love Island on TV3, rarely leaves his home town, and who just hangs around with other ill-informed buffons talking sh!te rather than discussing the issues of the day. Or to put it even more starkly - you're asserting that the validity of a recent Polish immigrant's views on Ireland are more powerful than mine, simply because he's in Dublin at the time that he makes them. Just because somneone has an Irish address - that instantly imparts monumental wisdom upon them regarding all things Ireland. And just because I currently have an English address - that means that I can say nothing of any value on the country at all.
I'm sorry Dodge - but there is no other conclusion to draw from your comments other than the fact that you are an idiot.
I would confidently take on 99.9% of the population of Ireland in a discussion/debate on ANY issue regarding Ireland - ANY - as I am that confident that my level of information and my understanding of the issues would out-weigh theirs. Yet that doesn't matter - as I'm currently residing outside our nation's hallowed borders.
The validity of someone's arguement and viewpoint in a debate, Dodge, is based upon the following - in order of priority :
1) Their level of knowledge on the matter.
2) Their degree of understanding of the issue concerned.
3) The facts they present to support what they are saying.
4) The clarity and power with which they present their entire arguement.
5) Their direct experience of the matter in hand.
Where you happen to be residing at the point at which they make their viewpoint/arguement does not alter these key ingredients - and therefiore does NOT in any way alter the validity of their arguement. Were you not so thoroughly rejectionist of views contrary to your own, you may have realised this before now......
But not because I'm from there. Because I have a greater knowledge and understanding of the issues affecting Northern Ireland and Derry than you do. Full stop. Meanwhile, I would never claim to have more valid opinions on certain Irish issues than people like, for example, Bertie Ahern - even though he lives in Dublin - or leading Irish academic Marianne Elliott - even though she's been based in liverpool for very many years. Hell - I've no doubt there are people out there who's knowledge and understanding of the Northern Irish situation beats mine hands down - yet they just happen to be English. That doesn't make their viewpoint or arguements any less valid than mine.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
So if I burn your house down because what you've written in this thread has annoyed/offended me, then the correct thing for the Gardai to do would be to ban you from posting on here in future - least it cause any further disturbance of the peace......? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Its like Platos story of the cave(look it up in Easons;) ). All your information is second hand. Ireland has changed a lot in the last few years. You cant beat first hand knowledge of a situation. People who were in Dublin and saw what went on have more right to comment than British people living in London pontificating on something they saw on the telly.
The riot in Dublin was nothing compared to what that comment is about to cause :DQuote:
Originally Posted by klein4
As you sometimes do Steve, you missed the point entirely. Of course someone's knowledge counts but do you honestly think you know more about the feelings of Dublin people to this March (and in realtion to the Dublin bombings) than I or others who have posted. You don't. You may not have heard/read about in the media because the media by and large ignored Saturdays march, it was however "common knowledge" that RSF were rallying their idiot supporters (and all assimilated thugs) and that the potential for trouble was huge.Quote:
So the arguements of an uninformed idiot based in Dublin giving a factless rant has more validity than my own arguements will ever have - no matter how strongly I present my arguement, and no matter how incontravertible the facts are upon which it is based - purely because I happen to be based in London for this stage of my life ? You might want to take a minute to read through this again.
Firstly you mentioned Ireland. I talked about Dublin. The dublin of today. And yes I'm fairly sure that there are polish people living here who are more in tune with the dublin of today than most Irish living abroad, and yes their opinion is more valid as they are the people dealing with it on a day to day basis.Quote:
my opinions on Ireland are invalidated by the fact that I currently live in London.
That may well be the case but I fail to see how you reach that conclusion from my posts on this subjectQuote:
I'm sorry Dodge - but there is no other conclusion to draw from your comments other than the fact that you are an idiot.
Again you are making massive assumptions. In no way did I state my "criteria" for comment, however locality is a huge one.Quote:
The validity of someone's arguement and viewpoint in a debate, Dodge, is based upon the following - in order of priority
We are not talking about history here, we're talking about a city as it works and lives. There was no literature predicting what would happen on Saturday but it was obviousQuote:
That doesn't make their viewpoint or arguements any less valid than mine.....
That’s a hugely illogical leap you've made there and there's no way my post even hinted at that possible outcome.Quote:
So if I burn your house down because what you've written in this thread has annoyed/offended me, then the correct thing for the Gardai to do would be to ban you from posting on here in future - least it cause any further disturbance of the peace......?
Look, you obviously taken offence to my last post. I stand by everything I said. If you want to answer me again, PM me. I'm fairly sure people here are bored with us. (and as mod I can't let it get off topic)
OK. So tell me the comments etc I have made on this thread that are now 'out of date' or 'second hand' ? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by klein4
The core story of what happened on Saturday is incontravertible - regardless of whether I was there to see it with my own eyes, or through the eyes of a TV lens like the vast majority of the people of Dublin and the rest of Ireland saw it.
And interesting to see you take Dodge's thought fascism and narrow it even further. So now only those people who were there on the day to directly and personally witness everything that went on can have a valid opinion on it ??? Shut up An Taoiseach - your view is irrelevant on all of this, as you just went there...... :rolleyes:
Why don't you just come out and say what you really mean - that NO-ONE other than you is allowed to have a valid opinion or arguement on this issue...
And as an aside - exactly how much knowledge and experience of anti-orange/loyalist protests do you have, given your oh-so-strong position on this particular issue.....?
Can't remember who said what to me after my post but here goes my responses;
I won't be giving any of my pics to the Gardai for the simple reason that I'm a coward and am afraid that if any of them were used and my name was found I'd be in a spot of bother, also I've never been one to tell tales.
To the arguments of freedom of speech I'll say this. I'm not against freedom of speech at all, but I do believe it has its limits. My points about Al-Queda, the Nazis and general white supremecy groups still stands in my opinion. All of those groups have wronged and murdered citizens of New York, Amsterdam and Harlem (not to mention many more places), so why should they be allowed to glorify their mis-deeds by marching past the people they have wronged? Surely this is a reasonable argument, that only the unreasonable Extreme Left Wing brigade would have a problem with? So why should a group such as the UVF, who only recently enough murdered innocent Irish people, be allowed to flaunt this in our faces? The answer of, because of freedom of speech is, in my opinion, a completely bull****, washing your hands of the worlds problems answer.
Spot on jebus.
"given your oh-so-strong position on this particular issue"
I wasnt aware I expressed an oh so strong opinion on this issue so you may get off that high horse of yours.
"Why don't you just come out and say what you really mean - that NO-ONE other than you is allowed to have a valid opinion or arguement on this issue..."
If you want an example of "thought fascism" (as you so well put it in the style of Rick from the Young Ones).....look no further than above.
Why's that? Read my post above on why I feel its a justified reference point, although I still can't see how we can't use human history as a reference point.Quote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
And you're living in which world? America and Britain have freedom of speech? Have you not looked at the conservative world we live in? All media in America especially is censored, jesus they even kicked Dan Rather off CBS News for validly questioning George Bush Jnr.'s military record. Absoultely ridiculous point, and what little respect I had for your opinion on this just flew straight out the window.Quote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
Also could you please show me pics and news reports on the Al-Queda support groups' marches through New York? Complete with banners saying we support Bin Laden/Al-Queda/9-11, because frankly you're making up **** there. And its true that white supremecists march, but always through pre-dominantly white areas, and guess what they also hold miny to major demonstrations that often fall into violence as well!?!? Hard to believe that no other country has ever had a riot but its true!! And if you believe that a ban on Nazi parties coming together stops them from doing so.....well I don't know how to state it any further that I think you haven't a clue what you're talking about
I don't condone the violence at all, but the reason why the Republicans were there and decided to form blockades out of whatever they could get their hands on was to stop the UVF, oh sorry Love Ulster, from marching down O'Connell St. What I was questioning was why this group that claims to love Ireland would continue to attack Irish people and destroy the Irish capital even after their objective had been achieved. It was just a way of me highlighting what sort of non-Nationalist thugs actually were involved in this riot, a point which went straight over your head it seems, I don't know I thought it was straight forward enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
[/QUOTE]
Right lads, all of you. Stop getting so personal with the posts (and yeah I'm included too)
I've lived in Dublin for the best part of 40 years. I remember the Dublin & Monaghan bombings vividly (the sister of my primary school teacher at the time was killed in Dublin). The march on Saturday didn't offend me or any of my friends and relatives living here that I have talked to. The general consensus among those I discussed it with is that there were victims on both sides and that the march served no purpose, but they had a right to March.
People also had the right to ignore it or protest peacefully if they felt inclined to. With the exception of a small group of barstool republicans and couple of hundred ****ed up knackers who took the opportunity to have a go at the guards and do a spot of looting that's what the vast majority of Dubs did. I think that is pretty obvious to anyone who has read the papers or watched the news over the last few days.
If there were huge numbers of Dubs that were offended at this march where were they on Saturday. They certainly were not in O' Connell Street.
I think this sort of thinking is a huge problem. I don't mean to quote young Liam as a good example as he's a good fella but he said something earlier along the lines of "Thank God they didn't reach the GPO". This kind of territorialism is still etched into the Irish mindset. We laugh at Paisley talking about not giving an inch but some people are not prepared literally to give Unionists an inch either. People may feel quite passionately about such things and I do not mean to offend them but this kind of thinking will see no progress on this island. Now perhaps that's what people want, if so then just come out and say it like Paisley, if not then cop on and see how your actions match up to what you profess and claim to desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus on the rioter's thinking
I'm sorry but if you're going to cut up a paragraph of mine to use as a negative point would you mind leaving the rest of what I said in there, otherwise it comes across as something I believe in, when I was using it to talk about the Repblican rioters train of thoughtQuote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Sorry Jebus, trying to be economical with the new rule.:o
Are you for real? Do you read what you typing? Do you not see the contradiction there? If the UVF were portesting down O'Connell st the gardai would not have allowed it. name one thing the unionists did that was illegal on saturday? Do you support the right of the IRA to have marches glorifying their comrades deaths? Did they not kill people?Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
:rolleyes:
its obvious he doesn't. But Love Ulster is pseudonym for UVF/UDA and anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a bubble (and the garda did allow it)
Once again one of ye are assuming things, in that I support the IRA. Simple fact if any of you cared to ask before you do your little :rolleyes: thing is that I don't, I also think they are murdering scumbags, and I wouldn't agree with them marching either. Does that clear it up?Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
And the Unionists didn't do anything illegal last saturday true, but thats hardly relevent, unless they had actually formed last saturday. Sad truth is that they've been around for a while and have caused various crimes in their time. have you forgotten that or do you just judge terrorist groups* on what they have done in the past week or so?
*and if you're going to pretend that Love Ulster is anything other than a glorified UVF support group then don't bother replying to this thanks very much
No bother, I'm just getting attacked on all sides by certain people so I'm trying to watch what people are taking up from what I sayQuote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Nah, just the anto1208 and pete axis of evil :pQuote:
Originally Posted by jebus