If we had to give man of the match to an Irish player it should have been to Lee Carsley, if it wasn't for him taking the foot off the pedal by taking off Grealish we'd probably have lost by 5
If we had to give man of the match to an Irish player it should have been to Lee Carsley, if it wasn't for him taking the foot off the pedal by taking off Grealish we'd probably have lost by 5
This is a bit weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Has he had John O'Shea forced on him by the FAI and is he trying to get rid of him?
O'Shea offers nothing imo apart from being a decent man who was a very good player in one of the biggest clubs in the world. That means he probably carries a bit of respect with players - based on playing career that is.
Clearly Paddy McCarthy is very highly rated in the game. Problem is would he stay on if they get O'Shea off the ticket.
Tuesday is the game that shows us more anyway. Even with Jurgen Klopp, we would have struggled against England. Second half I thought we played with a bit more nous by getting more of a presence in midfield. Granted, England took their foot off the gas.
Kelleher showed he is top class. He would be comfortably England number 1. I was in Liverpool last week visiting old mates and my Liverpool supporting friends think the Georgian guy could be an investment by FSG and all think they don't want to sell Kelleher. He will see minutes because Alisson is injured every year. FSG balance the books so would not be shocked if he replaces him next season and they sell Alisson.
That lizzies in a box song was horrible. No fan of the royal family but hated it being sung.
I mentioned this half as a joke a couple of weeks ago, but I do feel like HH has been leaning heavily on the coaching staff because he knew it was going to be a pretty tough start. Wanted to have some ready made excuses in, and I wouldn't blame him for that. My personal expectations were very low and think 2-0 flattered us. The gulf is massive but the 5 at the back has to die. I'm going to try and not judge him until the Nations League is over at the earliest. The bar is set good and low, lets see if and where improvements are.
I know a lot of you have very strong opinions about Kenny here, but one of my big takeaways from the 2 matches against Greece was how much better they felt man for man, It's a good experiment to get to play someone again so soon to compare and see if there's actually anything a different approach will bring, lord I think we need a different shape or we will just surrender midfield again thou.
We also struggled v Finland under the early Kenny reign, although I think that was probably too long ago to really make a decent comparison.
The team has a real lack of maturity and steel, something that will probably only come with time, it has been an issue since we started bringing through so many new caps, and that's my best guess as to why we keep persisting with some of the older guys, no matter how much they are struggling physically. It's probably not the route I'd take, but maybe the alternative is worse. We have a lot of very promising players with plenty international experience that I think we all hoped would be further along than they once looked like they would be, I still think there's plenty of improvement there in individual players, so I feel cautiously optimistic about the medium term squad situation, but it could all go to hell easily enough too.
I expected us to lose 2-0 or thereabouts beforehand. Too much of a gulf in quality and confidence between the teams.
Was not pleased with the performance - it was nothing like the level we saw against France at home not too long ago, but the new fella hasn't had much time to get his views across.
Ogbene was the only player trying to create something in an attacking sense - I don't understand the criticism he gets. Yes his end product was frustrating but without him we'd be worse.
I try not to question player's motiovation, but Doherty plays like he's half-interested. Don't see what his attituide brings to the pitch or the dressingroom.
Kelleher was superb. Knight made a positive difference. Good to see Evan get a little stretch.
We're really in the doldrums... hard to see how we get out of it.
Anyone that has worked in any professional environment would have to expect that O'Shea formulated the formation, selection, tactics in advance and presented his proposal to Halgrimsson. The fact that the proposal was Doherty and Brady and Coleman down the sides and two midfielders again through the middle concerns me about O'Shea. But I was already concerned. More concerning is that Halgrimsson accepted the proposal and allowed it to be implemented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
The only hope is that HH decided to let O'Shea do this one as a kind of free hit, almost purposely taking the pressure off himself for a tough game in that regard. But there can be no such excuses on Tuesday - he's now seen the latest O'Shea disasterclass in the flesh so it needs to be fixed for Greece and O'Shea needs to be sent back to handing out the bibs duties and hopefully learning a few things about football tactics from someone else.
The hounding of O’Shea is mindless scapegoatism. Mob mentality. Ireland were totally outclassed and you label it an O’Shea disasterclass. You’re a spine looking for a shiver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
He's had five games now and he hasn't been able to string a decent selection, formation or performance together. It's just telling it like it is, the man doesn't know what he's doing sadly, neither, it appears, does McCarthy.
You definitely should. We are treating these irish players like they are under 14s and everyone needs a game and some praise and a chance. That should be done now and players need to have consequences for been woefully below the standard and yet ohbenes consequence was to win MOTM , what a losing we don't care mentality that is. Lads will pile in now saying ogbene is a great lad and he was trying more than anyone else he always gives his all and he must be such a positive influence in the squad because he is always happy and he played LOI so he deserves it which just sums up what' we have become. For all those who lovedQuote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
saying the modern player needs a cuddle so they feel loved to get the best out of them and that Kenny would bring that where o Neill had been lacking in the Barney skills the ireland set up has become cuddle kingdom and we are reaping the rewards of that enlightened culture
Very, very poor.
As has been pointed out already, prior to the match, several posters pointed out the obvious folly of setting the team up against the might of European Championship Finalists England with only two central midfielders and what would likely happen, and were of course proved 100% right.
It wasn't a 3-4-3 but literally a flat back five, the two 30-something 'wingbacks' predictably lacking the athleticism to get up and down the pitch effectively, nor the tactical and technical nous to move into midfield areas when needed.
Molumby and Smallbone in midfield were, as forecast, completely outmatched and outnumbered by England's three, with TAA often moving into midfield and Kane dropping in there too. The front three, with the possible exception of Ogbene, neither got ahold of the ball in a way that would ease pressure on our defence, nor applied sufficient pressure on ball when England were in possession - the opening goal being symptomatic of that. Idah didn't look fit and didn't even offer physicality.
England didn't even have to work for their win, and that's the most damning indictment; the game being effectively over as a contest well within the first half hour.
Even a lower league side up against PL side in a cup competition will look to be dogged, compact and hardworking, and will often stay in a match for 60-70 minutes before eventually succumbing to superior opposition - and there is no shame in that.
But yesterday's performance was shameful. Having effortlessly wrapped up the game in the first half there was a definite sense of England taking their foot off the gas, almost in pity, in the second. Five tackles and only one completed in 90-plus minutes in a match against England tells it's own story. Pathetic.
https://m.independent.ie/sport/socce...751231119.html
I’m learning as we go,” continued Hallgrimsson. “Hopefully, I will have more authority when time goes on. We are all in it together and for sure I need a lot of help in the first one or two camps, not knowing the characters of the players. I am learning as we go, hopefully I will have more authority when time goes on, but I really like the staff, John and Paddy [McCarthy] have been fantastic, a big support.
"When you come to a new culture, you cannot think you can change everyone - in my case to an Icelandic. You have to adapt to the players, the culture, and what they have been doing and using what is good.
"When you come into an environment and start to change things because you like it in a certain way, you can’t do that. You have to first see what is good and what is bad before you change it. My learning is now to see what is good, what we can change, I would say 95% of what I have seen here is quality.”
Well if 95% of the culture is quality then we really are in troubleQuote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
He's clearly an act in haste, repent at leisure aware person. Take a long look, have a good think, a measure three times but cut once type of carpenter as it were. He's culturally unaware and wants to soak it all in, delightful. What he's about to become aware of too is we are among the most deluded but obsessed fanbases in the world and we are numerous, we want to see things being done and we want them, literally, yesterday :)Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Alarm bells were ringing for me when O'Shea was kept on, and nothing that has happened since has lessened this initial feeling of unease.
Very clearly, we needed a completely clean break from the demoralising and abject failure of the previous régime, and yet what we are getting is simply a continuation of the Kenny method.
That's when I had to laugh when I saw a handful of rather triumphalist posts and comments from a few of diehard Kenny supporters to the effect of 'how'd you like your back to basics now!?' 'How's that "pragmatism" working out for you?' etc.
What we saw yesterday was a team of the personnel Kenny would have chosen, in system Kenny would have chosen and playing with the the same disorganised, incoherent, undynamic passivity of a team Kenny would have chosen.
Of course I understand that due to the (absolutely typical) incompetence of the FAI, Hallgrimsson was given no friendlies to use as preparation before this extremely difficult fixture against a team rated at number four in the world.
However, he really needs to put his own stamp on the team and have the courage and 'authority' to move on from a failed era and be his own man, even if that means eventually bringing in his own staff.
Have to agree with that. O'Shea might be good for one camp as part of a transition, but HH has to stamp his own mark on the team. HH is undermining himself completely the way he is talking. He's not getting paid to learn how to manage Ireland.. he's getting paid to manage Ireland. Would not be at all sad to see less of O'Shea.
Was that on Twitter or YBIG or somewhere? I got a bit of a whiff of that off one or two of the tracker pages on twitter alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trequartista20
Unfortunately the reality is that there will be a (hopefully small) group of so called Ireland supporters out there now who will actively want Hallgrimsson to fail in order to confirm their own biases on a range of things, from the previous manager, if they backed him right through, to the style of play, if they think the only correct way to play football is through the thirds.
I find it a bit amusing and telling that they were out as early as last night, given that that clearly wasn't a team that was set up by him, but longer term they're best ignored.
Sounds like you need a cuddle, TBH (and in fairness, we all do after yesterday :D ). Ogbene wasn't great but he was the second best Irish player on the pitch, frustrating as he was. FWIW, the BBC player rating had Ogbene as second behind Kelleher. ****e and all as we were that's about right.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
But that's not right. That's why we are in this situation. If ogbene continues to play as part of a front 3 then we won't be qualifying for any tournament s in that period. But sure he'll get a few cheers and maybe the occasional lad booked so that's grand. If he plays right back or even right wing back we might actually get players on the pitch in positions where they can help us be most effective as a teamQuote:
Originally Posted by texidub
The argument that he should be played in a different position is definitely valid. I was reading what you were saying previously as Ogbene being below standard regardless of where he is played.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
I thought that was an absolutely pitiful performance. Only Kelleher stood in the way of it being like the time Germany walked 6 past us at home under Trap. England didn’t even break sweat.
I’m struggling to see us sticking with 3 CBs and 2 wing backs. Doherty was ineffective but Brady was worse. Absolutely terrible performance from a guy who just shouldn’t have been picked. His passing was dreadful and his set piece delivery (when he wasn’t messing things up with Smallbone) was rubbish too. He even botched up a routine back pass. I feel for him, he has brought us great moments but 2016 was his high water mark, a whole 8 years ago. Great lad, terrible terrible selection. JOS culpable you have to think.
Idah was atrocious. Guehi might as well have been marking me. Idah just couldn’t read the flight of the high balls at all and Guehi saw everything way earlier than Idah did. On the rare occasion Idah managed to edge ahead of him his touch was terrible.
Brady and Idah both lucky to get 2/10 from me.
Doherty left Coleman and the inside channel exposed to Gordon on numerous occasions. As Malachy Clerkin said, you might just forgive that if he was causing trouble going forward. He didn’t.
Everyone else gets a pass from me. Most others tried hard but without any cohesion at all. I’ve heard some criticise Ogbene but at least he was game and managed to find the ball. Never our MOTM (Kelleher by a distance imho) but a useful asset if used well.
It’s hard to see what the new set up brought. No attempt to keep the better bits of Kenny (passing, being generally competitive against good teams) and no signs of the best bits of the Jack/Mick/MON eras - being in the opponent’s faces and being good without the ball. It was closer to Trap, trying to be well positioned without the ball but without putting any pressure on it.
Second half was better when we actually tried to put pressure on the ball and it yielded 2 early chances. Maybe if one had gone in it’d have been different.
HH needs to grow a pair and stamp his ideas on the team for the Greek game. I’d revert to a back 4 - I’d be happy with the 4 CBs as one defensive unit - and drop Doc, Brady, Idah and replace the injured Coleman.
I’m not sure about Smallbone but I think Parrott might deserve a spot instead. Smallbone is starting to look like a luxury player in a team that is unlikely to ever have any luxury. But he gets a pass due to being up against much better players.
Be in Greece’s faces and win the ball back early. Use it however HH wants to use it but tell the players to trust themselves and support each other first and foremost.
We were way too timid. Feeble is how I’d describe that.
What a waste of 8 months or whatever it was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texidub
I wouldn't have him right back anyway. Right wing back might kind of make sense, but I've already posted my views of the issues of us playing wing backs in general.
The thing is Ogbene himself will want to be playing further forward. His ex Luton teammate Andros Townsend made a comment on the ITV coverage last night that Ogbene himself wouldn't have been too happy with being shoved to wing back because he sees himself as a forward.
Personally I would see his best position as being competing for a second forward position supporting a main striker, say a fully fit Ferguson or Szmodics.
Lot of what you say is spot on. Opting for Coleman at right back was a very conservative choice. It might have smacked of John O'Shea opting for his old mate and convincing HH to implement that. The better option for me would have been Dara O'Shea (much stronger and harder to get around and would have added a bit more steel to the defence). Doherty hasn't done anything in years for us and Brady too is past his best. Scales at left back might have been a better option. In reality though we are (yet again, campaign after failed campaign) a million miles away from where we need to be. And that starts with finding a creative midfielder or two and coaching our lads to play the game like England currently do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
I'd agree with almost all of that. Only thing is I wouldn't be too hard on Smallbone just based on last night, he was given no chance at all with the way the team was set up. He was chasing shadows from the off because there was nothing else he could do in a 2 in midfield with just him and Molumby. It's the same reason why I think a lot of Irish supporters massively underrate Cullen right now, they're judging him on games where he has been asked to do the work of two players in the middle of the park which he can't do and it's just straight up unfair to judge him in those circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
You talk about people perhaps not showing up on Tuesday. You know the best thing that could happen to this team/Irish fans/FAI set up is for no one to show up. It would never happen but if the stadium only had four or five thousand people in it on Tuesday, that would be some statement from the fans. A statement which says, give us something that is watchable, something to get excited about, something we can feel national pride in again, and we'll come back. Otherwise keep on going with your tried and miserably failed methods.
Formations are above my pay grade, TBH. I only know the very basics. He looked like a world beater at times against France. Ultimately though, I'd hope Ogbene would play wherever he's told to play and regardless of his feelings or he should be out of the squad - that's just basic discipline on the maagerial side and professionialism on the player's part.
For as long as ogbene has been involved for us I've been saying on here that he does not have the skill set to be in a front 3 or God forbid front 2 in international football and his position is as a fullback/wingback. That's where he played for Rotherham at his best and for luton this seasonQuote:
Originally Posted by texidub
I wouldn't agree with that, think it's harsh on him. I think he can do a job further forward as well. He's had good moments playing for an Ireland team that hasn't had many overall.
What a waste of 8 months. It has been a lot longer if truth be told. We are a million miles away from where we need to be, no movement of the ball between the lines, no creative player in midfield, and even with a decent goal scorer on board (Szmodics) we find him playing at left back due to the lack of service. It is pretty obvious to me at this point that we (yes, we the fans) are the reason for all of this despair around the Irish team. Why? Because the expectations of us fans of this team are completely unrealistic. We have seen them underperform game after game, yet like crazy people expecting a different outcome, we think the next game will be the one, the one where we will magically turn into a great team. It is not going to happen. The system of football in Ireland (more precisely the system of coaching) is broken. We don't produce creative players, and we don't (apparently) place an emphasis on instilling the finer skills of scoring goals in our youngsters. Until that changes, nothing will change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I'm not having that. We'd all love to see hundreds of millions put into coaching, but it's almost a separate issue to the here and now. When the team is set up as poorly as it was last night we can absolutely ask for better in the short term as well. We have players who are the match of plenty of European teams who are currently ranked higher than us.
Presumably we will see callups ahead of Tuesday. At least one anyway with Coleman's injury. That should give us a clue of the direction of travel. Azaz, McGrath and Taylor would be the ones I'd be looking at - all centre midfielders.
Ogbene is the least of our problems. The midfield was completely overwhelmed (not their fault, I thought both played OK inthe circumstances). That was the crux of it.
Maybe it's just disappointment but I have a sense the FAI see the international team as a bit of a jolly. Sure, there'll always be internationals regardless of whether we win or lose - type of thinking. Where is the hunger?
Idah dawdling around like he hit the bong before he got on the team bus. Doherty thinking too much of himself. Brady and Coleman knackered. I thought Jake O'Brien had a bit of bite about him, FWIW. But this is about as hopeless as I've ever felt as an Ireland supporter. I started following during Eoin Hand's reign when qualification for a finals was but a distant dream. Plus ca bleeding change...
You believe McGrath, Aziz or Taylor would have made a difference last night? And could sort out the Greeks on Tuesday? No set-up exists that would have changed anything against England such was the vast gulf in class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Mainly on social media. And to be fair, as you say, a definite minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
I'd be looking to make immediate changes if I were HH.
A reversion to a back four in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 would be a good start, even if it meant putting four centre-halves along the backline. At least it offers a solid defensive base and gets more height and physicality into the team.
Brady's legs went maybe four or five years ago and I would assume the unimaginative O'Shea has him in the team purely because of his alleged dead ball abilities. I would be quickly moving on from him now. He offers virtually nothing, especially at LWB. Coleman and Doherty are still useful squad options, but they should be phased out from the starting xi.
Collins played as a fullback and wingback at Stoke. O'Shea played at left and right back for WBA. Scales played as a LWB at Rovers. Further down the line, Josh Key is a regular at Swansea, Garcia-McNulty played regularly as a LB at Zwolle last season, Gallagher is playing well in MLS. It's time to look at other options.
I would then play two sixes who are tasked with simply sitting in front of the back four Whelan/Andrews style; probably Molumby and Knight, who's playing there for Bristol City. I'm astounded we didn't use the energy of Knight (and/or Browne) from the start against England. Going forward, Lawal should probably be fast-tracked into the seniors asap and Ronan should be properly assessed as a possible option.
I would play a hardworking midfield three in front of them, including obviously Ogbene, Knight/Browne and maybe McAteer. Azaz, Sykes, Johnston McGrath and Moran are all options for future international windows. And assuming Evan isn't fit, I'd have Szmodics or Parrott up front.
I'd like to see us at least more compact, solid and harder to break down against Greece, and to play with more a sight more energy and aggression.
That argument doesn't hold water. There's a multitude of other countries, much poorer countries than Ireland, that would not have hundreds of millions to put into coaching but that does not stop them from teaching their kids proper skills, techniques and tactics. Point in case - how long did it take the English players last night to figure out that we could not play proper football? How long- 30 seconds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
When you keep bashing the ball long and back to your opponents it means you have no confidence in your abilities. And by default it increases the confidence of your opponents exponentially.
You want a guy who was relegated from the third tier last year and who hasn't featured yet for Stoke (through injury, granted) to be fast-tracked into the squad, and to assess a guy who's about Jamie McGrath sort of level - decent mid-table SPL, but never shown a sniff of anything better really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trequartista20
I mean, we can do those things, but I think people need to stop putting them across as actual solutions to our problems at the moment, or even material improvements. There's nobody who's not currently getting in the squad who can really feel aggrieved about it. Certainly nobody who's going to magically make a huge difference.
And I don't mind the Doherty/Coleman/Brady/Stevens quartet being phased out - but I do worry that what comes in instead is going to be worse. Otherwise they'd be in the squad at the moment, and they're not.
Actually it was identified for them before the game. Carsley correctly predicted that we would be set up poorly in a 3-4-3/5-2-3 so the English players had clear instructions of what to do before they went on the field. He said as much afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
It's not that we can't play, a lot of our players play or have played in the Premier League so clearly we can play. It's that we're being set up to fail game after game. You either get that or you don't. But I suspect you are one of those burn the house down types that would actually like to see us fail. As I said earlier, the type that are best ignored.
The same England that nearly lost to Slovakia at the Euros? Yes, we should be able to at least make them work a bit for a win when we're playing them at home. That should apply to any team we play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
The point about Azaz, McGrath and/or Taylor coming in isn't that they'd start, or necessarily even play. But it would be an acknowledgement that we've once again neglected the centre of the park and are now taking steps to rectify things. That we'd be likely to see at least three of Smallbone, Knight, Molumby and Browne start and therefore will need additional backup on the bench, hence those lads being drafted in as cover.
The Georgian national team is worth €177 million and they showed up to the euros and were very impressive. Take out their keeper and they're worth 132.
The Irish team is worth 180. I know there's caveats here but we are much more capable than last night.
The sorry fact is that this team is used to failure and they've been getting passes for years now. They make stupid mistakes and miss gilt edged opportunities that isn't consistent with their club appearances. More than anything else, they don't trust each other and they are scared sh1tless about making mistakes.
If HH can actually get them functioning as a unit and drop some of bygones like Brady, we should be able to compete a lot better than we have been. We have at least one proven goalscorer, a world class keeper, decent center backs, a few honest journeymen and some promising starlets.
Are we competitive with England? No.
Should we be capable of parking the bus and eeking out a 0-0 against vastly superior opposition? Yes, with the required luck.
Simple fact is that we can be a lot better than this and a lot better than the Kenny era. There is a lot of truth that management has been a major part of the problem now for almost 8 years.
All the above is underscored by the woeful lack of investment in the domestic game.
That's not how I read it. Somehow DanMc D has managed to botch Heimir's words for crude effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
On Heimir's use of the word authority, he's not talking about more authority as in having more power, but an authority that comes with e.g. more knowledge/observation of the players. Afaia, he was the one who asked for Josh, he felt he needed someone who knows the players etc, Josh was an obvious candidate. Heimir has his confidante/assistant, his Icelandic buddy Gudmundur (Gummi).
The main task for Heimir is to decide on his first 11 and get to the 'team that picks itself', something we haven't had for donkeys years.