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Shamrock Rovers presumably would, Derry would have the finances for it as well you'd imagine. After that I'm not sure in a post-COVID landscape. A lot of clubs had A/reserve sides in the old A Championship in fairness, but that was a decade ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Strabane would be in the 3rd tier of the Irish League if they had a ground up to scratch, as they won their league a few years ago. The ground has since been improved by the council to the level that would see them promoted. Strabane Athletic are also planning their own stadium too, with facilities to embed them in the community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkicker
Of all the teams you listed there, the only ones that would credibly have any impact upon players and support in and for a Strabane team would be Derry, Dergview and Harps. What local competition to Harps are you saying has come and failed ?
Inishowen looks to Derry economically and historically. All except the top of the penninsula really, where you have Fanad and Carndonagh. Places to the south like Buncrana, Burnfoot and Moville are very much connected to Derry. Parts of the city also spill over the border into Donegal Inishowen too (e.g. Muff, Killea). Derry City played in Maginn Park in Buncrana for a year when the Brandywell was being refurbished.Quote:
Originally Posted by GUFCghost
Cockill Celtic in Buncrana are in the FAI Cup early rounds regularly now.
When did Inishowen steal Fanad:D??Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Them Donegal cute hoors would steal the eye out of your head if you weren't looking ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by joey B
That was compulsary for top tier sides too, it was one of the reasons used to do away with it. I'm open to correction but I think Limerick and UCD were the only First Division sides to ever enter.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
Actually the only year we didn't reach the final was also the only year we didn't enter, which was our First Division year.
Harps had a side in it every season, and have had a reserve side playing Ulster Senior League ever since too.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
I would imagine all Premier League teams will be interested in having a team. Would the finanances be so different from running an under-age LOI team?Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
A big problem with the 'A' Championship was the timing, right after the economic crash when a lot of money suddenly left from the country, plus the idea wasnt so fully formed at the time.
The league is more stable now. I think too the competition will also have a lot more legitimacy in it being an offical 'Tier' of the League, which suggests its not going to disappear after it started. Plus the overall repuatuion of the league has increased, and with access to underage- LOI leagues (and thus the best youth players), it should be more attractive for regional leagues.
You could even get creative with the format to keep costs down or how the teams are formed (like if Galway do not fully want to have a team in it, but a Mayo team do, they could work together to give Galway United player games under a Mayo shirt).
Maybe I am being optimistic about it, but I think it is a great addition to the league, and I think a lot of teams will be interested in joining. It should be a good stepping stone for new clubs (wherever they may come from) to becoming a senior team.
Interestingly Harps support in Buncrana actually grew notably while Derry played in the town.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
You say Strabane won their league a few years ago. That wont get you up this year. If you wish to join the third tier you must put your application in a the beginning of the season possibly and most likely with about 5 others from the amateur league, mid ulster league, ballymena provincial league and others. Your ground must be up to scratch at the time of applying and if all applications win their respective leagues it's a playoff situation. At present the seven team league is not strong enough and God forbid if Strabane were to finish 5th of seven... Say no more. In Donegal there have been small meteoric rises from Fanad, cockhill and others who knew they couldn't take the plunge into higher level football most likely for financial reasons, therefore allowing Harps to trundle on. I don't think Harps will pull support from Strabane because if they did who would look after the dog!!Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Hah ! ;) My bad - apologies. I meant Malin.Quote:
Originally Posted by joey B
I'm open to correction. I think Finn Harps and Shelbourne also fielded an A team while in the First Division. I was ranting about it for years!! If First Division clubs were willing to field an A team without an obligation to do so, the A Championship should have been restructured just for teams who wanted to be in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
I'm open for correction here as well. St. Pat's and Sligo Rovers were strongly against the A Championship. It was mandatory for Premier Division clubs to enter an A team. Some did so grudgingly and lobbied for it to be scrapped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa
As mentioned above, if 4 First Division clubs saw merit in the A Championship, it should just have been optional.
The First Division got by with 8 teams for a few years. Not ideal but if at least 8 teams can agree to join an Intermediary League, the third tier league can get off the ground.
I think you would have a lot more than just Rovers and Derry entering teams. All clubs have a team ready for the third tier this year's under 19s and with another year of development potentialy some players for the first team. The connection is strong with many players playing underage since 14 fir the club. .
Relegation from the first division would make the first division better imo. To easy for the likes of athlone to just stagger on as things stand. A relegation and subsequent promotion battle might reinvigorate them.
Not all clubs are as progressive to see the merit in an U23/B team. Sligo and Pat's would be in the unlikely to join group. It's fair enough though. It should be optional.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
In theory, yes! The threat of possible relegation should help set a higher standard at the lower end of the First Division.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
If a number of clubs in a 3rd Tier were meeting the First Division criteria, consideration would have to given to an expansion of the First Division, were such a scenario to occur.
What gives you that impression? I’m not sure re:Sligo, but Pats have a strong case for being one of the best run academies in the country with arguably the best track record of producing players in recent years. Also around the time of the controversy over the whole Rovers II coming back into the first division thing, it was mentioned in the national sports media at the time that Dundalk and Pats were among the other clubs that had an interest in putting a B/II team out in future seasons also. Obviously with the change of ownership at Dundalk their stance may have changed as I’d say Peak 6 saw a reserve team as the potential to give game time to their stockpile of foreign imports as they appeared to not give a toss about their youth setup. From Pat's end of things however I can’t imagine there’s been a change of thinking in the last 2 or so years.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
EDIT: I’ve just seen your other post about Pats and Sligo being against the A championship. That was 11 years ago though and before the underage leagues were set up as they are now and certainly from a Pats point of view the academy is hugely important to the club now compared to back then when it was almost non existent for most clubs so yeah as mentioned above, I could see Pats entering a team if offered the chance.
UCD are unlikely to field an U23 team but you'd hardly call them unprogressive in academy terms.
The only problem with introducing relegation from the second tier is that you're not actually solving the problem; you're just shifting the problem down a level. The issue Tralee had when they were kicked out of the LoI (as effectively happened) and had nowhere to be relegated to is still there, and is still likely to cause clubs to be wary of joining the LoI.
Really? I thought UCD embraced the A Championship. They even won 2 titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The A Championship gave Cobh the breathing space to get their house some way in order.
A Monaghan or a Kildare County might have benefitted from being able to return to the A Championship.
A problem might be moved down a level but it's actually an appropriate level to rebuild if needed.
Is an U23 team really needed given our team now is entirely college students anyway?
I think even just dropping clubs like Monaghan or Kildare into a third tier is the wrong way to go about developing them. The lack of a pyramid has problems in so many ways. Are the strongest clubs being promoted? Are they missing out on the buzz of a promotion campaign to lead them into the first season at a new level? What happens if you want to drop a level down from the third tier? Is there an issue with trickle-down development of facilities (see the recent discussion on how the pyramid in England has strengthened the Conference no end in the last couple of decades)
The problem with the relegation from the First Division is that a team might finish near the bottom of the Third Tier, but only 'B' Teams finish ahead of them. Then they get a chance for promotion, despite being a weaker Third Tier team. That has no sporting merit, or good for the First Division (or the teams in the Third Tier who might get promoted too fast for their development). So how implementing a consistent promotion/ relegation will be a hard issue to solve, especially in the early years when you would expect LOI 'B' teams to be stronger.
Maybe I am way too positive about it, but I feel there is a directional change in Irish Football. I think (more) junior and intermediate teams are also looking for changes in the national structures, which a more integrated league system gives. I would be confident that after 5 years or so, another division would be added or that the provincial leagues would join under the Third Tier (which is the goal of the current FAI).
Other things like rules will have to be looked at. Are the squads going to be set during Transfer windows (no movement between senior and b squad), or is there going to allowence for players. Dfferent countries handle it in different ways.
I think that's fair alright. I think a third tier as mooted just extends the bad system we have at present rather than does anything to address the issues, but if it's a step towards proper joined-up thinking, then it's to be welcomed for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa
Kildare could have dropped into the A Championship if they'd been so inclined, no? I really enjoyed it as a competition but let's not pretend it was a silver bullet. It's long enough ago now too that it's of negligible relevance to the freshly mooted Tier 3. Watching Limerick in places like Tullamore and whatever little village Carlow played in (Balon?) was fun though.
Show of hands lads, do we think we'll actually have a Tier 3 next season? I'd be leaning toward 'no' unfortunately.
If UCD don't need an U23 team, that's fair enough if that's where they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
A pyramid sounds great but does it lead to a repeat of the 3 clubs in Galway situation?
The underage leagues have sensibly accepted entrants from non LoI areas. Applying a similar logic to a third tier is an Irish solution to an Irish problem.
Before Kildare's final season, they wanted to step down to the A Championship. They were encouraged to stay in the First Division. A year later, they were gone.
Did A Championship first teams have to finish in the top 3 to qualify for the promotion playoff? The A Championship did have a promotion mechanism. Something similar to that is one possible solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa
You are right. It is not a silver bullet. It is however a level that can bridge the gap from U19 to senior level. If clubs can build and attain a First Division licence, similar-ish to the A Championship promotion mechanism, let play-off and see if they are good enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
The lack of a pyramid caused the three Galway club situation in the first place. Salthill or Mervue finished bottom of the First every year but every year there was no relegation.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
I don't see how it's remotely possible at this stage, unless it's almost all B teams (which would defeat the point)Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
The only interested side so far seem likely to skip into the First Division
Allowing clubs from an area that already had a LoI club caused the problem too. The youth leagues have learned from that so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Cavan/Monaghan FC, Klub Kildare FC and Carlow Kilkenny FC are at U17 level. They are 2 to 3 years away from making a decision on whether they want to step up to senior or remain as they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
A third tier shouldn't necessarily be dependent on new entities joining. If enough LoI clubs want a reserve league, it should be reason enough. 8 teams is the minimum to get up and running.
Yep - another argument in favour of a proper pyramid.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Would Salthill/Mervue have been promoted in the first place if they'd have to do it on the pitch rather than asking nicely?
There's two teams from Limerick playing underage at the moment. A special case perhaps but probably one more than is strictly needed for the area.
Are any senior league clubs seeking to join the League of Ireland?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
A special case alright. Is Pat O'Sullivan still determined to get Limerick FC back into the league and is it a realistic possibility?Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
Not sure what your point is?Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Clubs shouldn't ask to join the LoI. They should be striving to do so on the pitch. Like in pretty much every other league in Europe.
Is there a successful club in the senior leagues who want to join the League of Ireland?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
St Francis applied to join the first division recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Bluebell have been mooted also.
Id imagine St Kevins might throw their hat in the ring so they can ring fence their kids rather than sharing compo with bohs.
All Dublin however which isn't ideal. I dont have much expertise outside the pale
Bluebell and St. Francis is West-Dublin right? Peamount in the womens too. Is there a feeling that the area of the city/county is not represented? Like do people in Blanchardstown is big population center. Do they have a team?Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
I also would guess St. Kevins Boys too as they have a huge reputation and set up (that might really hurt Bohs as a club though).
My feeling is that the answer to both those questions is a fairly emphatic no but my finger is a very long way from the proverbial pulse.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
The Welsh pyramid seems a good model to emulate, minimising expense but maximises local derbies through regionalisation below the Premier:
https://i.imgur.com/MjazSti_d.webp?m...idelity=medium
Does anyone else whince everytime they see the spellng of 'Klub' Kildare ? :o
Are there enough clubs in Dublin already? Bohs, Shels, Pat's and Rovers, UCD also. Not to be dividing the potential supporter base any further.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
The only exception and case to make is if Fingal County and Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown County see the merit in a team.
Sporting Fingal of course have come and gone. Is Bray now the representative of Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown after the merger with Cabinteely?
UCD are the DLR LOI club.
Yes it definitely grinds my gearsQuote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
I like the ideal of a pyramid structure. I just don't see it as realistic. Ruud Dokter made the valid point that a working structure for one country doesn't necessarily work for another.Quote:
Originally Posted by culloty82
The Munster Senior League is effectively a Cork Senior League. I don't think any of the other district leagues in Munster could trust a partnership with them. You'd nearly have to have a separate senior league for the rest of Munster.
Is the Leinster League linked to all the district leagues?
Connaught is without a senior league? Ulster has a bit of a senior league.
It'll be difficult to get all these components rowing in the same direction. The internal politics has some big fish in a small pond, who will not budge and will be obstructive to suit their own interests.
A third tier can circumvent that political headache. If a region has no LoI representation, let them join. If a club is going well on the park and they are not deemed as likely to have a negative impact on an existing LoI club, let them join as well if they want.
In the old A Championship, I think teams had to finish in the top 3 to get into the promotion playoff. Something similar for the third tier, if it ever becomes a reality, can set a playing standard to complement the licensing criteria.
The bottom of the First Division currently doesn't set a playing standard. If a third tier club can attain a First Division licence and they can beat the last team of the First Division in a play-off, let them up!