And no contract would allow for a “resignation” without a notice period. Which means he can’t be appointed by someone else anytime soon.
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And no contract would allow for a “resignation” without a notice period. Which means he can’t be appointed by someone else anytime soon.
He could start with Dundalk tomorrow if he wanted. What are Pats going to do about it?
He may have to waive his notice period pay and it would really properly burn bridges at Inchicore, but there's ways and means around a contract.
(Exhibit 1 - Neale Fenn)
Not at all. Straight to the Four Goldmines. I doubt very much Dundalk would take the risk.
Straight to the four goldmines and then what?
Is it not exactly what Fenn did?
I've seen people walk out of regular jobs too - feck all you can do about it except not pay their notice. You used to be able to withhold their P45 a while, but not any more
In that case why do clubs regularly pay large sums to get their new managers released from their existing contracts?
I don’t even know if he had a notice period. His statement
today confirms only that he has offered his resignation. Pats are within their rights to refuse to accept it and hold him to his contract until they are happy with the terms of his departure.
If you think I’m wrong, let’s see if Dundalk announce his appointment.
Carefully worded statements from Pats yesterday regarding the Clancy addition to the managerial team and from O'Donnell tonight about informing Pats today of his resignation without any clarity if has been actually accepted by Pats, is he calling a bluff about whether he is actually in any contract or not?
This saga isn't looking as crazy thanks to the Bircham/Forrest entertainment last week but this one may still have some legs to run
It may go to arbitration to agree compensation; I don't know the exact ins and outs in a football capacity. Though Dundalk got nothing for Fenn. It may not have helped that they agreed to annul his contract.Quote:
Originally Posted by patsdad
But there's nothing in employment law stopping him starting with Dundalk tomorrow
Is there the possibility that this is an across the board face saving exercise. O'Donnell 'formally' resigns from his position contracted or not, lets St Pats look less naïve, Dundalk taking fault for jumping the gun with an approach believing he was out of contract, O'Donnell wants to move on without a lot of the acrimony so will suck up any dispute on the vagaries of the contracts , Dundalk wait until the dust settles before formally appointing the new head coach. In the mean time the business of player signings is going on in the background?
Still boils down to what the terms of the original contract between St Pats and S'OD, any clauses and how they are activated and if this stands up to legal scrutiny, whether a contract was signed in September or not. All very easy to prove although I doubt anyone wants to pay the way through that process. If O'Donnell was still absolutely under contract especially if he signed a new one it will come out in the wash if Pats pursue compensation. If that doesnt happen there was nothing absolute in favour of St Pats case. Dundalk didnt do a whole lot wrong if told their main target was out of contract and when availability was disputed backed off until there was some sort of acceptable spin put on things. I just think if it was cut and dry in St Pats favour it would be with the FAI, a blunt and factual statement made that was not of pure annoyance, maybe proof provided of this, compensation claims would have been made. Clancy was hardly signed so quickly if there was a watertight case. It could be dragged through the courts as it may not be watertight for O'Donnell either and Dundalk and St Pats could agree something - convenience for one and principled by another. All this aside does any Pats fans see O'Donnell back in their dugout next season or coaching in any role there? Jaysus when Dodge loses it or gets a hint of an ego check there must be a mushroom cloud overhead!
Honestly, what is the point Pats fans going on about this, he's leaving Pats and will be confirmed as Dundalk manager, its only a matter of timing, tonight only confirms what was on the cards from Tuesday night.
Pats have a new manager, move on guys.
Yeah seriously, why do people talk about literal current events.
Is it going to change anything? SOD has left Pats................
I doubt very much that Pats want him anywhere near their dugout. Unless it’s to paint it. But I can’t see them allowing him to take up employment anywhere else until his contract is bought out. This is the norm, folks. It was done properly during the week between Pats and Drogheda in relation to Clancy.
They can't stop him.
No more than your employer can stop you walking out in the morning for a better job.
Youre right yeah, should probably close this forum down now so.Quote:
Originally Posted by oriel
Talking about a match after it’s over? What’s the point, it won’t change anything because Team A beat Team B.
The spire has been bombed? What’s the point in talking about it, it won’t undo the bomb
For clarity when Fenn approached Dundalk to retire, cash in on whatever sports person tax back the club accepted his request. He requested his player registration with Dundalk be annulled so he could play amateur footy. When Dundalk did so he then was fre to register with Rovers and did so. It was allegedly a loophole that was flagged up for Fenn by the PFAI specifically McGuinness but I dont know who would have had that level of detail unless Fenn/McGuinness said it. It was naïve by Dundalk to so easily hand up the players reg if he was retiring. With managers simply being employees on contracts and not needing to be registered with clubs/associations rooted in transfer window regs, then wouldnt it be just Irish employment law thats relevant!? So it could take time to tidy up legally, delay announcments out of Oriel but not make a whole lot of difference. Genuine question - can a manager resign as any employee can at any time irrespective of their contract as long as they work their notice period, or give up entitlements to a similar 'value'. Many employers just want the unhappy employee gone as soon as notice is given. I have no idea if a notice period is linked to length of time employed in the kind of way redundancies can be determined?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
What's that got to do with anything, Drogs lost their manager and thanked Pats for taking him? J Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by patsdad
Pats bought out his contract.Quote:
Originally Posted by oriel
If SOD is still under contract and if Pats don't accept his resignation they have then backed themselves into a corner with two managers/head coaches and their salaries now under contract, there is always a risk Dundalk could walk away from it all and appoint someone elseQuote:
Originally Posted by patsdad
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
God save us from amateur lawyers.
Football manager contracts are specifically designed to prevent a manager “walking out for a better job”. Why else do you think that compensation is regularly paid, as Pats have done in relation to Clancy?
Not before time.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 Year Contract
And I've said that compensation may have to be agreed or decided by arbitration.Quote:
Originally Posted by patsdad
But what are Pats going to do to stop him taking over at Dundalk tomorrow?
And thats never been done in LoI before... ironically one of the reasons Dundalk could afford to approach Stephen Kenny is that he was still getting part of his gardening leave pay from Rovers so helped soften what was step backward with the wreck the club was in after a previous owner and new owners wanting and getting their man and its was a reasonably good match up in the end - history repeating itself would be fine with me!Quote:
Originally Posted by total hoofball
The better question is whether Dundalk would be willing to take the chance on appointing him while he’s under contract at Pats. But we’ll soon see, I have no doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Is there a 14 day cooling off period for panic buys of additions to coaching teams? Almost a full 2 year contract even PT wouldnt have been small change. Now if someone had had a quiet word with Clancy and he put in his resignation from Drogheda........Quote:
Originally Posted by patsdad
He had a clause in his contract allowing him to leave for a certain amount. €10k I think I read.
Which Pats paid, allowing him to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Longfordian
I’m sure Pats have a figure in mind to agree O’Donnell’s release. Dundalk can either pay that now and get him announced; or announce him and end up paying damages on top of the compensation. Plus have the details of what he and they were up to in recent weeks aired in court. Their call. As I said, we’ll soon see.
For the record once Kenny signed up with you , from that day Rovers ceased paying him….Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
So not small change to sign a PT manager. It will also cost his contract at St Pats for whatever thats worth. As has been said this will in all likelihood fizzle out and go away with some convoluted agreement with the kind of carefully worded amicable statements we have seen - usual stuff wishing each other well through gritted teeth but really just want to get it over and done with. St Pats will claim the moral victory and be facilitated to do so. Probably undisclosed fee stuff that many will claim to know and will range from token amounts from Dundalk fans to daft amounts by Pats fans. Neither will know the figure if there actually is ever one.Quote:
Originally Posted by patsdad
While it would be a pain if it goes to court then at least there will be an end to the more ludicrous stuff claimed. This type of dispute could be lobbed over to CAS by the judiciary here too if its between the clubs on compensation. It is not an expensive process in itself but the legal teams that each party would likely employ would be (all those possible trips abroad), more than any compensation involved here and there are no odds on winners with CAS, their costs are set but they dont order 'personal' cost to be payed iirc. if there are grey areas at all they tend to push things to their mediation process more these days rather than make a binding ruling straight up. The Irish football arbitrators were Gareth Farrelly and Stuart Gilhooly.....if they still are would they lean toward a former player/PFAI member/manager in a contract dispute with a club? - if its not a slam dunk, it rarely is, its rolling the dice.
Maybe the quiet party are the ones who have their ducks lined up, they have been planning things for weeks after all, others scrambling a defence and coming up with the panic contingency, a manager that Dundalk were told hands off by the club and that manager reaffirming his committment to his club publicly, with the 2 yr contract announced prior. The committment made lasted a few days when he was offered a better job.
Of course they did.... after a final payment amount was agreed. Clubs do at times do their due diligence and allow the decks get cleared of old baggage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calcio Jack
Carefully worded there too CJ, must be catching!
Being an employee is not the same as being in a contract.
if sod is in breach of his contract (which I have no idea of)then pats can sue him.
i can’t remember the Guys name but a Chelsea player who took cocaine was sacked by them and then sued for millions .
like all these scenarios it willl be settled.
Adrian Mutu I think it was!Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
Adrian Mutu probably. Makes sense that contracts are not totally pointless and so the subtle difference is between an employee and contracted eh worker.
Barry McNamee has re signed for Harps. All is good in the world.
Mutu is still on the line to pay that money too isn't he? €17 million or so? The European Court of Human Rights was one of a few to reject his appeal. Tread carefully SOD, tread carefully. :D
Chelsea claimed that 17mil in 2005 and Mutu not a cent yet paid, the ECHR only threw out the umpteenth appeal in 2018. Cobh Ramblers could be double winners and Finn Harps in their new ground in that 13-16 years ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
This is it. Pat's clearly don't want SOD (or at least, they really shouldn't at this stage), Dundalk presumably do, so just agree compensation and be done with it. It's licensing season, so not as if Dundalk can refuse to pay any agreed sum.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
You would imagine if SOD resigns and then refuses to, say, take coaching or get involved in new contracts at Pat's, then he's in breach of his contact there, so he probably is calling a bit of bluff. Can Pat's refuse to pay him while he's refusing to fulfil the terms of his contract? All nice and messy.
But much and all as SOD isn't coming out of this well at all, yeah, the best thing for everyone is just to settle and move on. And if the Dundalk board are on to him in the meantime about players, or agree they'll add a tenner a week to his contract to cover the time until the deal is agreed, probably not much Pat's can do about it.
The more interesting question is backroom staff - is SOD likely to try take Mathews from Pat's? Do either Pat's or Dundalk really care?
Mathews is or was on the board previous to taking up the job as manager last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Sounds like that'd make it less likely he'd leave alright. One less messy strand to tie up
Pats most definitely don’t want O’Donnell now. The only thing left is the question of compensation. A deal will obviously be done. I wonder how Dundalk will be feeling though if SOD represented to them that he was a free agent, and that turns out not to be the case. Dundalk welcome to him in any event.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
As for Alan Matthews, he is on the board, as mentioned, so unlikely to be going anywhere, not that I’d be heartbroken if he was. I don’t know if MClancy has his badges, hopefully he has, so there is no need for this fiction of who is in charge. Funniest rumour is that Staunton is part of the ticket as the “gaffer” at Dundalk. Can’t see it being true, but here’s hoping !
Clancy is only down on linkedin as a Pro candidate but has the A licence. What's the requirement the A or the Pro ?